A new monster for your disapproval-Frost Gator [Archive] - Wizards Community

A new monster for your disapproval-Frost Gator [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MrAdam
02-15-06, 06:21 PM A new monster, (rife with small mathematical errors) submitted for your (dis)approval

Gator, Frost
Huge Magical Beast (Cold)
HD 8d10+32 (72 hp)
Init +1
Speed 20(4 squares) Swim 40 (8 squares)
AC 18 (-2 size +1 dex +9 natural) Touch 9 Flat Foot 17
Base Attk/ Grapple 8/22
Attk Bite +14 (2d8+1d6 cold +8) or Tail Slap +14 (1d12 +8) or
Breath Weapon (+9 ranged attack 3d6 cold)
Full Attk Bite +14 (2d8+1d6 cold +8) or Tail Slap +14 (1d12 +8) or
Breath Weapon (+9 ranged attack 3d6 cold)
S/R 15’/10’
SA Breath Weapon, Improved Grab
SQ Darkvision (60’), Low Light Vision, Hold Breath, Cold Subtype
Saves Fort +10 Ref +7 Will +3
Abilities Str 27 Dex 12 Con 19 Int 1 Wis 12 Cha 2
Skills Hide +9* Listen +5 Spot +5 Swim +16
Feats Endurance, Skill Focus (Hide), Alertness
Environment Cold Aquatic
Organization Solitary or Colony (6-11)
Treasure N/A
Align Neutral
Advancement 9-12 (huge) 13-18 (gargantuan)
LA +4 (cohort)
What appears to be nothing more than a large chunk of ice floating just below the surface of the frigid water, suddenly springs to life, snapping huge crocodilian jaws at you
A frost gator is a monstrous crocodilian beast adapted to polar climes. Covered in a thick, bluish-white armored scales, and possessing large, powerful jaws equipped with teeth like icicle daggers, frost gators are the dominant predator of the arctic regions.

Combat
Frost gators hunt in much the same manner as their smaller, tropical relatives. They float just below the surface of the water, pretending to be a large chunk of flotsam, with only their eyes and nostrils breaking the surface, until prey draws near, then they burst from the water, trying to bite their prey and drag it under. If their prey escapes their initial attack they will blast it repeatedly with their breath weapon, hopefully slowing it down enough so they can catch it.

Breath Weapon (Su) Every other round, a frost gator can spit out a 3’ long ice lance at prey. This is a ranged attack that does 3d6 piercing and cold damage (for damage reduction purposes half of the damage is considered piercing and the other half cold)

Hold Breath (Ex) A frost gator can hold it’s breath for a number of turns equal to 4x it’s Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, a frost gator must hit with it’s bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, the frost gator establishes a hold on the opponent with it’s teeth and drags it into deep water, attempting to pin it to the bottom.

Skills- A frost gator has a +8 to any swim check to perform some special action, or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a swim check even when distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, providing it swims in a straight line.
*A frost gator gains a +4 racial bonus on hide checks when in the water. Further a frost gator can lie in the water with only it’s eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on hide checks
Athanatos
02-15-06, 07:01 PM I DISAPPROVE.

1) 8(5.5) + 32 = 76 HP.
2) 8 (BAB) + 8 (Huge Size) + 8 (27 Str) = +24 Grapple Bonus
3) Don't list Breath Weapon as an attack option.
4) Small quibble, but reposition the +8 damage from Str bonus to before the cold damage (2d6+8 plus 1d6 cold). Took me a while to figure out what was going on there.
5) Ouch. I can't even give this an A for effort. I'm pretty sure that all you did here was stick a subtybe, bonus damage, a breath weapon, and a level adjustment on a Giant Crocodile. Well, I have to admit that the underlying concept is rather interesting, but do it justice. Any DM can do what you did to the Giant Crocodile in less than a minute. Give me a reason for this thing's existence. It'd be a far more interesting monster if its attack patterns were somewhat different than a crocodile's, if it had interesting special attacks or qualities based on its environment, and if its stats weren't pretty much just copied directly (which makes me wonder how the pair of math errors got in there).

Better luck next time, pal.
MrAdam
02-15-06, 07:25 PM So Sayeth Athanatos:
5) Ouch. I can't even give this an A for effort. I'm pretty sure that all you did here was stick a subtybe, bonus damage, a breath weapon, and a level adjustment on a Giant Crocodile. Well, I have to admit that the underlying concept is rather interesting, but do it justice. Any DM can do what you did to the Giant Crocodile in less than a minute. Give me a reason for this thing's existence. It'd be a far more interesting monster if its attack patterns were somewhat different than a crocodile's, if it had interesting special attacks or qualities based on its environment, and if its stats weren't pretty much just copied directly (which makes me wonder how the pair of math errors got in there).
Ow... That...Scathing!
I'll fix the errors...eventually. As for why the errors are there ,I didn't just copy the copy the giant crocodile directly, I changed it from a animal to a magical beast (which is hard for someone who is inumerate) and added the "frost" template. As for it not being interesting enough, I am sorry you feel that way.
dok
02-15-06, 10:36 PM I would suggest that for the future, you avoid putting self-disparaging comments in the post title. Saying "here's a monster for you to trash" or "tell me how much my monster sucks" is really inviting the wrong kind of response. This isn't a tremendously exciting or unique entry, but that's no reason to pre-emptively trash it by encouraging others to say bad things.

I'll skip over the numbers, because that can be automated, and address what I see is the biggest concern:

Full Attk Bite +14 (2d8+1d6 cold +8) or Tail Slap +14 (1d12 +8) or Breath Weapon (+9 ranged attack 3d6 cold)
...
SA Breath Weapon, Improved Grab
...
Breath Weapon (Su) Every other round, a frost gator can spit out a 3’ long ice lance at prey. This is a ranged attack that does 3d6 piercing and cold damage (for damage reduction purposes half of the damage is considered piercing and the other half cold)

The problem here is that when you call something a "Breath Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm#breathWeapon )", there is a set of rules that have to be followed.

Using a breath weapon is typically a standard action.
No attack roll is necessary. The breath simply fills its stated area.
A breath weapon attack usually deals damage and is often based on some type of energy.
Breath weapons usually allow a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + ½ breathing creature’s racial HD + breathing creature’s Con modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). Some breath weapons allow a Fortitude save or a Will save instead of a Reflex save.
Breath weapons are supernatural abilities except where noted.
A creature is immune to its own breath weapon unless otherwise noted.
Creatures unable to breathe can still use breath weapons. (The term is something of a misnomer.)

If the creature spits a spike of ice that requires an attack roll, doesn't allow a saving throw, and doesn't fill an area, that's not really a Breath Weapon by the RAW. It's just a ranged attack.

That's not the end of the world, it just means you don't call it a breath weapon.

And since it's not a Breath Weapon, but just a ranged attack, the 1/2 cold + 1/2 piercing mechanic on 3d6 is just akward. It's a lot easier to split the damage evenly, and list it by type. Since 3d6 doesn't split evenly, I'd suggest 2d8 or 4d4 or 2d10. And because part of the damage is physical, the creature should add its strength modifier to damage.

Your formatting on the Attack and Full Attack are also off. Mostly its minor stuff, but when making a full attack action, most creatures can use all their natural weapons (in this case, a Bite and a Tail Slap). Making all the necessary changes, you get something like this:

Attack: +14 melee (Bite , 2d8+8, plus 1d6 cold or Tail Slap, 1d12+8) or +9 ranged (Ice Spike 1d10+8 plus 1d10 cold)
Full Attack: +14 melee (Bite 2d8+8, plus 1d6 cold) and +9 melee (Tail Slap 1d12 +4) or +9 ranged (Ice Spike 1d10+8 plus 1d10 cold)

The alternative approach is to give it a Breath Weapon that actually works like other breath weapons. (affecting an area, with a Reflex or Fortitude saving throw for 1/2 damage)

I also notice this seems to be missing an entry for Challenge Rating.
guevaramartyr
02-15-06, 10:54 PM i think that it's an interesting idea. mathematical and grammar errors aside, i may end up using this in a future campaign to be set in the northern reaches of my world :D
ubernex
02-16-06, 12:57 AM ...but when making a full attack action, most creatures can use all their natural weapons (in this case, a Bite and a Tail Slap).
Actually there are a couple critters that even on a full attack can only bite or tail slap. The giant crocodile is one of them. Since this is kind of a frosty crocodile it makes sense to keep it that way. If I am remembering right at least one of the dinosaurs (Fleshripper?) has the same mechanic, they can't bite and tail slap, but must choose which to use.

Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d8+12) or tail slap +11 melee (1d12+12)
Full Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d8+12) or tail slap +11 melee (1d12+12)
Athanatos
02-16-06, 06:33 PM Ow... That...Scathing!
I'll fix the errors...eventually. As for why the errors are there ,I didn't just copy the copy the giant crocodile directly, I changed it from a animal to a magical beast (which is hard for someone who is inumerate) and added the "frost" template. As for it not being interesting enough, I am sorry you feel that way.

Well, the "I DISAPPROVE" was sarcastically joking about your pessimistic thread title, but the rest of the post went admittedly overboard. Sorry. I still think, however, that the creature would benefit from some special abilities that draw from or somehow influence the ice in which it lives.

Or keep it as the pseudo-animal it is right now and just change this from a "Frost Gator" to a "Beast of Frost" template. Done right, that'd sure be interesting.
savant_warlord13
02-17-06, 12:34 PM I am next to certain that int 1 creatures cannot be cohorts
MrAdam
02-22-06, 01:27 PM So Sayeth Athanos
Well, the "I DISAPPROVE" was sarcastically joking about your pessimistic thread title, but the rest of the post went admittedly overboard. Sorry. I still think, however, that the creature would benefit from some special abilities that draw from or somehow influence the ice in which it lives.

Relax, It's all in fun. Anyway the frost gator was a pretty lame monster, originally ment for that FF1 monsters thread.(my original plan was to link it to the FF1 monster thread but I got distracted and The other thread died). That Beast of Frost template is a neat Idea tho' I'll get kraken on it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MrAdam 02-15-06, 06:21 PM	A new monster, (rife with small mathematical errors) submitted for your (dis)approval Gator, Frost Huge Magical Beast (Cold) HD 8d10+32 (72 hp) Init +1 Speed 20(4 squares) Swim 40 (8 squares) AC 18 (-2 size +1 dex +9 natural) Touch 9 Flat Foot 17 Base Attk/ Grapple 8/22 Attk Bite +14 (2d8+1d6 cold +8) or Tail Slap +14 (1d12 +8) or Breath Weapon (+9 ranged attack 3d6 cold) Full Attk Bite +14 (2d8+1d6 cold +8) or Tail Slap +14 (1d12 +8) or Breath Weapon (+9 ranged attack 3d6 cold) S/R 15’/10’ SA Breath Weapon, Improved Grab SQ Darkvision (60’), Low Light Vision, Hold Breath, Cold Subtype Saves Fort +10 Ref +7 Will +3 Abilities Str 27 Dex 12 Con 19 Int 1 Wis 12 Cha 2 Skills Hide +9* Listen +5 Spot +5 Swim +16 Feats Endurance, Skill Focus (Hide), Alertness Environment Cold Aquatic Organization Solitary or Colony (6-11) Treasure N/A Align Neutral Advancement 9-12 (huge) 13-18 (gargantuan) LA +4 (cohort) What appears to be nothing more than a large chunk of ice floating just below the surface of the frigid water, suddenly springs to life, snapping huge crocodilian jaws at you A frost gator is a monstrous crocodilian beast adapted to polar climes. Covered in a thick, bluish-white armored scales, and possessing large, powerful jaws equipped with teeth like icicle daggers, frost gators are the dominant predator of the arctic regions. Combat Frost gators hunt in much the same manner as their smaller, tropical relatives. They float just below the surface of the water, pretending to be a large chunk of flotsam, with only their eyes and nostrils breaking the surface, until prey draws near, then they burst from the water, trying to bite their prey and drag it under. If their prey escapes their initial attack they will blast it repeatedly with their breath weapon, hopefully slowing it down enough so they can catch it. Breath Weapon (Su) Every other round, a frost gator can spit out a 3’ long ice lance at prey. This is a ranged attack that does 3d6 piercing and cold damage (for damage reduction purposes half of the damage is considered piercing and the other half cold) Hold Breath (Ex) A frost gator can hold it’s breath for a number of turns equal to 4x it’s Constitution score before it risks drowning. Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, a frost gator must hit with it’s bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, the frost gator establishes a hold on the opponent with it’s teeth and drags it into deep water, attempting to pin it to the bottom. Skills- A frost gator has a +8 to any swim check to perform some special action, or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a swim check even when distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, providing it swims in a straight line. *A frost gator gains a +4 racial bonus on hide checks when in the water. Further a frost gator can lie in the water with only it’s eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on hide checks
Athanatos 02-15-06, 07:01 PM	I DISAPPROVE. 1) 8(5.5) + 32 = 76 HP. 2) 8 (BAB) + 8 (Huge Size) + 8 (27 Str) = +24 Grapple Bonus 3) Don't list Breath Weapon as an attack option. 4) Small quibble, but reposition the +8 damage from Str bonus to before the cold damage (2d6+8 plus 1d6 cold). Took me a while to figure out what was going on there. 5) Ouch. I can't even give this an A for effort. I'm pretty sure that all you did here was stick a subtybe, bonus damage, a breath weapon, and a level adjustment on a Giant Crocodile. Well, I have to admit that the underlying concept is rather interesting, but do it justice. Any DM can do what you did to the Giant Crocodile in less than a minute. Give me a reason for this thing's existence. It'd be a far more interesting monster if its attack patterns were somewhat different than a crocodile's, if it had interesting special attacks or qualities based on its environment, and if its stats weren't pretty much just copied directly (which makes me wonder how the pair of math errors got in there). Better luck next time, pal.
MrAdam 02-15-06, 07:25 PM	So Sayeth Athanatos: 5) Ouch. I can't even give this an A for effort. I'm pretty sure that all you did here was stick a subtybe, bonus damage, a breath weapon, and a level adjustment on a Giant Crocodile. Well, I have to admit that the underlying concept is rather interesting, but do it justice. Any DM can do what you did to the Giant Crocodile in less than a minute. Give me a reason for this thing's existence. It'd be a far more interesting monster if its attack patterns were somewhat different than a crocodile's, if it had interesting special attacks or qualities based on its environment, and if its stats weren't pretty much just copied directly (which makes me wonder how the pair of math errors got in there). Ow... That...Scathing! I'll fix the errors...eventually. As for why the errors are there ,I didn't just copy the copy the giant crocodile directly, I changed it from a animal to a magical beast (which is hard for someone who is inumerate) and added the "frost" template. As for it not being interesting enough, I am sorry you feel that way.
dok 02-15-06, 10:36 PM	I would suggest that for the future, you avoid putting self-disparaging comments in the post title. Saying "here's a monster for you to trash" or "tell me how much my monster sucks" is really inviting the wrong kind of response. This isn't a tremendously exciting or unique entry, but that's no reason to pre-emptively trash it by encouraging others to say bad things. I'll skip over the numbers, because that can be automated, and address what I see is the biggest concern: Full Attk Bite +14 (2d8+1d6 cold +8) or Tail Slap +14 (1d12 +8) or Breath Weapon (+9 ranged attack 3d6 cold) ... SA Breath Weapon, Improved Grab ... Breath Weapon (Su) Every other round, a frost gator can spit out a 3’ long ice lance at prey. This is a ranged attack that does 3d6 piercing and cold damage (for damage reduction purposes half of the damage is considered piercing and the other half cold) The problem here is that when you call something a "Breath Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm#breathWeapon )", there is a set of rules that have to be followed. Using a breath weapon is typically a standard action. No attack roll is necessary. The breath simply fills its stated area. A breath weapon attack usually deals damage and is often based on some type of energy. Breath weapons usually allow a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + ½ breathing creature’s racial HD + breathing creature’s Con modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). Some breath weapons allow a Fortitude save or a Will save instead of a Reflex save. Breath weapons are supernatural abilities except where noted. A creature is immune to its own breath weapon unless otherwise noted. Creatures unable to breathe can still use breath weapons. (The term is something of a misnomer.) If the creature spits a spike of ice that requires an attack roll, doesn't allow a saving throw, and doesn't fill an area, that's not really a Breath Weapon by the RAW. It's just a ranged attack. That's not the end of the world, it just means you don't call it a breath weapon. And since it's not a Breath Weapon, but just a ranged attack, the 1/2 cold + 1/2 piercing mechanic on 3d6 is just akward. It's a lot easier to split the damage evenly, and list it by type. Since 3d6 doesn't split evenly, I'd suggest 2d8 or 4d4 or 2d10. And because part of the damage is physical, the creature should add its strength modifier to damage. Your formatting on the Attack and Full Attack are also off. Mostly its minor stuff, but when making a full attack action, most creatures can use all their natural weapons (in this case, a Bite and a Tail Slap). Making all the necessary changes, you get something like this: Attack: +14 melee (Bite , 2d8+8, plus 1d6 cold or Tail Slap, 1d12+8) or +9 ranged (Ice Spike 1d10+8 plus 1d10 cold) Full Attack: +14 melee (Bite 2d8+8, plus 1d6 cold) and +9 melee (Tail Slap 1d12 +4) or +9 ranged (Ice Spike 1d10+8 plus 1d10 cold) The alternative approach is to give it a Breath Weapon that actually works like other breath weapons. (affecting an area, with a Reflex or Fortitude saving throw for 1/2 damage) I also notice this seems to be missing an entry for Challenge Rating.
guevaramartyr 02-15-06, 10:54 PM	i think that it's an interesting idea. mathematical and grammar errors aside, i may end up using this in a future campaign to be set in the northern reaches of my world :D
ubernex 02-16-06, 12:57 AM	...but when making a full attack action, most creatures can use all their natural weapons (in this case, a Bite and a Tail Slap). Actually there are a couple critters that even on a full attack can only bite or tail slap. The giant crocodile is one of them. Since this is kind of a frosty crocodile it makes sense to keep it that way. If I am remembering right at least one of the dinosaurs (Fleshripper?) has the same mechanic, they can't bite and tail slap, but must choose which to use. Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d8+12) or tail slap +11 melee (1d12+12) Full Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d8+12) or tail slap +11 melee (1d12+12)
Athanatos 02-16-06, 06:33 PM	Ow... That...Scathing! I'll fix the errors...eventually. As for why the errors are there ,I didn't just copy the copy the giant crocodile directly, I changed it from a animal to a magical beast (which is hard for someone who is inumerate) and added the "frost" template. As for it not being interesting enough, I am sorry you feel that way. Well, the "I DISAPPROVE" was sarcastically joking about your pessimistic thread title, but the rest of the post went admittedly overboard. Sorry. I still think, however, that the creature would benefit from some special abilities that draw from or somehow influence the ice in which it lives. Or keep it as the pseudo-animal it is right now and just change this from a "Frost Gator" to a "Beast of Frost" template. Done right, that'd sure be interesting.
savant_warlord13 02-17-06, 12:34 PM	I am next to certain that int 1 creatures cannot be cohorts
MrAdam 02-22-06, 01:27 PM	So Sayeth Athanos Well, the "I DISAPPROVE" was sarcastically joking about your pessimistic thread title, but the rest of the post went admittedly overboard. Sorry. I still think, however, that the creature would benefit from some special abilities that draw from or somehow influence the ice in which it lives. Relax, It's all in fun. Anyway the frost gator was a pretty lame monster, originally ment for that FF1 monsters thread.(my original plan was to link it to the FF1 monster thread but I got distracted and The other thread died). That Beast of Frost template is a neat Idea tho' I'll get kraken on it.