A new type: Concept [Archive] - Wizards Community

A new type: Concept [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
A Flying Buddha
09-12-04, 12:25 AM I've been speculating for awhile about creating creatures (esp gods) which exist as concepts. I know their are already things which could arguably be defined as such, but I wanted to create a type or template to apply to these creatures. But other than dealing with death and dying, this is mostly a thematic thing thus far. I was wondering if anyone out there had any ideas to add (both thematically and in quantifiable terms) to this type or template.
Now, the text was written as a type, but I'm beginning to think it would be better technically as a template, so don't please start calling me stoopid or anything like that. :D
Also, I know this is probably needlessly complicated, but if you have any constructive ideas, please humor a fool. :tiphat:

Concept type: A Concept is a unique kind of creature which exists due to the collective consciousness of another group, most commonly humanoids, but any sentient collective can spawn a Conceptual creature. A concept varies in power, but the most common examples are the “creator” or “parent” deities who are spawned by a group of people who share a common myth concerning their origin. Other common examples are the primal forces such as Death or the elements. To spawn a concept, the members of the spawning race must have a common idea concerning the creature’s appearance, temperament, beliefs, and in game terms, its type. A concept is a unique in that it acquires all the aspects of its perceived type (a humanoid god has the humanoid type in conjunction with the concept type). The perceived type grants all the qualities (hit dies, saves, skills) normally associated with that type.
No matter what its type (other than Conceptual, of course) a Concept cannot be killed through normal means. On the flipside, they also cannot be raised through normal means if someone does manage to destroy them. If a Concept’s physical form is destroyed and the people who conceived the Concept are unaware, the Concept will reform within 2d20 days but will have no memory of its demise, nor any other events which its conceivers are unaware of. If the agents of conception are aware of this demise but some or all believe the creature will return then the creature will return with loss of hit die or levels (as appropriate) in proportion to its lost believers. Thus the only way to permanently destroy a concept is to convince the believers that the Concept in question is truly dead. The best way to do this is to somehow make a large amount of the believers aware at once (in the case of killing a Conceptual god, its clerics will lose spells and become at least vaguely aware that something is wrong). To spawn or resurrect a concept, a massive amount of people must come to either believe the concept exists or that it is “alive” again (or never was dead).
Due to the dynamics of the Concept’s relation to its believers, it is important to note that the believers are not aware of how the concept came into existence or that it requires their faith to exist because this destroys their belief in the nature of the concept. The Concept itself would most likely refuse to believe such a thing and even if it knew the nature of its existence, it would most likely elect to make sure that no other living creature knew.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-12-04, 04:45 AM Well to an extent this is already the case with the exemplar outsiders (Celestials, Fiends, Modrons, Slaadi, Rilmani) and deities. They are belief or concepts or alingments taken physical form.

Baernaloths and Yugoloths are abstract neutral evil taken flesh.
Modrons are abstract law taken physical form.
Rilmani are neutrality (as a balance of all alignments) taken form [The now self exiled Kameral being neutrality as an absence of other alignments].
Etc.

Deities tend to be more specialized and focused on a particular aspect of a belief, while the fiends etc tend to be more primal and basic in what they embody.
The Vorpal Tribble
09-12-04, 04:50 AM Might be wrong, but don't think you quite get what he's saying. Those alignment-formed guys exist whether, or in spite of, someone believing in them. They weren't made by belief. And to my knowledge 'gods' didn't come into being merely because they were believed in, but were beleived in because they existed.

I personally think it would be interesting myself. Get your whole party to believe in something, and boom, you have a minor god ready to help out :D
A Flying Buddha
09-12-04, 11:06 AM Yeah the vorpal tribble gets me here. If you've ever seen the movie Merlin (which being an NBC tv movie lots of you probably haven't, not to mention it wasn;t incredibly accurate) Mab is killed when everyone refuses to believe she exists, wheras your average DnD deity may be somehat weakened they can still cause things to happen in the world. I haven't read anything on yugoloths, but I have heard about them. I'm just looking for a more broad and interesting category.
It could also include some sort of oracle or a legendary creature not just gods. That's part of why I'm looking to broaden the game effects. Also, just for kicks.
The idea is actually going to be very important to my setting because it means that the inhabitants *predate* the gods, they just don't know it.
I forget now who said it, but there's a quote that describes what I'm thinking of: "If there were no God, it would be necessary for us to invent one."
Seraph of Babel
09-12-04, 01:03 PM Are you familiar with C.G. Jung's archetypes? It reminds me of it. Anyway, if it "acquires all the aspects of its perceived type", then I think it's best to make it a subtype. A subtype is effectively like some sort of type "template". Thus, you can have humanoid, outsider, etc. with a conceptual subtype.

Edit: I believe the quote is by Voltaire.
A Flying Buddha
09-12-04, 01:25 PM I considered subtyping, but as a logic freak it occurred to me that the perceived type comes after the Concept tpye. But then again I'm just crazy. :)
I'm thinking for simplicity's sake to make it an applied template, since it is just adding on the death issues (thus far) to the creature in question. I also need to streamline the descriptive text, it's just hard to convey a complicated idea in a paragraph. Thanks for the input thus far all!

And no, I have not heard of Jung nor the archetypes.
okaynowa
09-13-04, 07:00 AM The Concept type, eh? Nice, er... concept. ;)

I think I see where you're going with this, and if so, I would also think of it as a template to be applied to other creatures. You're talking creatures that embody beliefs, right? For example, we'd see creatures like:

1) Bigfoot (Large monstrous humanoid [Concept])
2) Sewer alligator (Large magical beast [Aquatic, Concept])

... and so forth? Something more tangible than a ghost, but less mortal than a monster? I'd like to see some concrete examples of what you have in mind. Worth exploring.
Covert_Spirit
09-16-04, 09:40 PM I'd just like to point out I like this idea a lot, and am using something similar as a basis for my new campaign setting (working title The Elsewhere), where the gods will be Concepts, as well as maybe a PC race...lots of cool stuff...

C_S
A Flying Buddha
09-16-04, 11:02 PM Actually, that is going to be my primary use for it as well. All except for 3 of my gods (who acended in recorded history) are father/mother gods and primal force gods. These will mythically precede the mortal races, but in fact it will be the other way around. Makes for a nice plot twist.
IceFractal
09-17-04, 08:45 PM Small Gods, which is part of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, is all about this kind of thing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
A Flying Buddha 09-12-04, 12:25 AM	I've been speculating for awhile about creating creatures (esp gods) which exist as concepts. I know their are already things which could arguably be defined as such, but I wanted to create a type or template to apply to these creatures. But other than dealing with death and dying, this is mostly a thematic thing thus far. I was wondering if anyone out there had any ideas to add (both thematically and in quantifiable terms) to this type or template. Now, the text was written as a type, but I'm beginning to think it would be better technically as a template, so don't please start calling me stoopid or anything like that. :D Also, I know this is probably needlessly complicated, but if you have any constructive ideas, please humor a fool. :tiphat: Concept type: A Concept is a unique kind of creature which exists due to the collective consciousness of another group, most commonly humanoids, but any sentient collective can spawn a Conceptual creature. A concept varies in power, but the most common examples are the “creator” or “parent” deities who are spawned by a group of people who share a common myth concerning their origin. Other common examples are the primal forces such as Death or the elements. To spawn a concept, the members of the spawning race must have a common idea concerning the creature’s appearance, temperament, beliefs, and in game terms, its type. A concept is a unique in that it acquires all the aspects of its perceived type (a humanoid god has the humanoid type in conjunction with the concept type). The perceived type grants all the qualities (hit dies, saves, skills) normally associated with that type. No matter what its type (other than Conceptual, of course) a Concept cannot be killed through normal means. On the flipside, they also cannot be raised through normal means if someone does manage to destroy them. If a Concept’s physical form is destroyed and the people who conceived the Concept are unaware, the Concept will reform within 2d20 days but will have no memory of its demise, nor any other events which its conceivers are unaware of. If the agents of conception are aware of this demise but some or all believe the creature will return then the creature will return with loss of hit die or levels (as appropriate) in proportion to its lost believers. Thus the only way to permanently destroy a concept is to convince the believers that the Concept in question is truly dead. The best way to do this is to somehow make a large amount of the believers aware at once (in the case of killing a Conceptual god, its clerics will lose spells and become at least vaguely aware that something is wrong). To spawn or resurrect a concept, a massive amount of people must come to either believe the concept exists or that it is “alive” again (or never was dead). Due to the dynamics of the Concept’s relation to its believers, it is important to note that the believers are not aware of how the concept came into existence or that it requires their faith to exist because this destroys their belief in the nature of the concept. The Concept itself would most likely refuse to believe such a thing and even if it knew the nature of its existence, it would most likely elect to make sure that no other living creature knew.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-12-04, 04:45 AM	Well to an extent this is already the case with the exemplar outsiders (Celestials, Fiends, Modrons, Slaadi, Rilmani) and deities. They are belief or concepts or alingments taken physical form. Baernaloths and Yugoloths are abstract neutral evil taken flesh. Modrons are abstract law taken physical form. Rilmani are neutrality (as a balance of all alignments) taken form [The now self exiled Kameral being neutrality as an absence of other alignments]. Etc. Deities tend to be more specialized and focused on a particular aspect of a belief, while the fiends etc tend to be more primal and basic in what they embody.
The Vorpal Tribble 09-12-04, 04:50 AM	Might be wrong, but don't think you quite get what he's saying. Those alignment-formed guys exist whether, or in spite of, someone believing in them. They weren't made by belief. And to my knowledge 'gods' didn't come into being merely because they were believed in, but were beleived in because they existed. I personally think it would be interesting myself. Get your whole party to believe in something, and boom, you have a minor god ready to help out :D
A Flying Buddha 09-12-04, 11:06 AM	Yeah the vorpal tribble gets me here. If you've ever seen the movie Merlin (which being an NBC tv movie lots of you probably haven't, not to mention it wasn;t incredibly accurate) Mab is killed when everyone refuses to believe she exists, wheras your average DnD deity may be somehat weakened they can still cause things to happen in the world. I haven't read anything on yugoloths, but I have heard about them. I'm just looking for a more broad and interesting category. It could also include some sort of oracle or a legendary creature not just gods. That's part of why I'm looking to broaden the game effects. Also, just for kicks. The idea is actually going to be very important to my setting because it means that the inhabitants predate the gods, they just don't know it. I forget now who said it, but there's a quote that describes what I'm thinking of: "If there were no God, it would be necessary for us to invent one."
Seraph of Babel 09-12-04, 01:03 PM	Are you familiar with C.G. Jung's archetypes? It reminds me of it. Anyway, if it "acquires all the aspects of its perceived type", then I think it's best to make it a subtype. A subtype is effectively like some sort of type "template". Thus, you can have humanoid, outsider, etc. with a conceptual subtype. Edit: I believe the quote is by Voltaire.
A Flying Buddha 09-12-04, 01:25 PM	I considered subtyping, but as a logic freak it occurred to me that the perceived type comes after the Concept tpye. But then again I'm just crazy. :) I'm thinking for simplicity's sake to make it an applied template, since it is just adding on the death issues (thus far) to the creature in question. I also need to streamline the descriptive text, it's just hard to convey a complicated idea in a paragraph. Thanks for the input thus far all! And no, I have not heard of Jung nor the archetypes.
okaynowa 09-13-04, 07:00 AM	The Concept type, eh? Nice, er... concept. ;) I think I see where you're going with this, and if so, I would also think of it as a template to be applied to other creatures. You're talking creatures that embody beliefs, right? For example, we'd see creatures like: 1) Bigfoot (Large monstrous humanoid [Concept]) 2) Sewer alligator (Large magical beast [Aquatic, Concept]) ... and so forth? Something more tangible than a ghost, but less mortal than a monster? I'd like to see some concrete examples of what you have in mind. Worth exploring.
Covert_Spirit 09-16-04, 09:40 PM	I'd just like to point out I like this idea a lot, and am using something similar as a basis for my new campaign setting (working title The Elsewhere), where the gods will be Concepts, as well as maybe a PC race...lots of cool stuff... C_S
A Flying Buddha 09-16-04, 11:02 PM	Actually, that is going to be my primary use for it as well. All except for 3 of my gods (who acended in recorded history) are father/mother gods and primal force gods. These will mythically precede the mortal races, but in fact it will be the other way around. Makes for a nice plot twist.
IceFractal 09-17-04, 08:45 PM	Small Gods, which is part of Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, is all about this kind of thing.