a question about vampires [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTimePost
thrassoss

06-01-04, 02:59 AM
If a 4th lvl human fighter is slain by a vampire's blood drain or energy drain attacks its my understanding that the fighter comes back as a vampire spawn; am I correct in assuming the fighter loses all feats,skills, and class realated abilities, becoming a vampire spawn as listed in the MM.
If a 5th lvl human fighter is slain in the same way he gains the vampire template and retains all class related stuff. In the description of the template it lists the level adjustment of the vampire template to be +8 and a vampire spawn has no lvl adj and a CR of 4. So it would seem a 4th lvl person becomes a CR4 creature(vampire spawn) and a 5th lvl creature become a CR 13 creature(vampire). This seems like it's a rather large gap.
Another thing that seems odd is the examples of vampires: the 5th lvl human fighter vampire is listed as having a CR of 7 and a lvl adj of +5,but the elite vampire 13th lvl monk shadowdancer has a CR of 15 and a lvl adj of +8. This just seems very wierd.
One thing that I am considering IMC is just making a vampire template that adjusts with HD or Lvl's like how half-celestials and such get extra abilities with more HD.
Any explanation of some of the stuff I mentioned would be great or any advise with any who've used an alternate style of vampire template would be greatly appreciated
Jimmy P

06-01-04, 05:01 AM
Level adjustments and challenge ratings are two very diffrent things. A vampire is simply CR+2, as it is slightly harder than the base NPC, having gained more powers in exchange for various abilities. As a player, though, they are much more powerful, so a player who wants to be a vampire has a major reduction in level.
thrassoss

06-01-04, 05:12 AM
So a NPC vampire is a push over but a PC vampire is a major threat?....
Jimmy P

06-01-04, 07:11 AM
Exactly. When the party goes to a crypt, they expect undead and so stock up on holy water, scrolls of bless and stakes. The vampire's regenration, DR and gaseous escape is little help. But when a PC vampire goes to the orc fortress they have no idea it's a vampire and will pelt it with normal arrows, which just bounce off. How many monsters carry stakes or have the intellignece to use them?
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru

06-01-04, 09:15 AM
So the question becomes: If the PCs are confronted by a vampire when they had no reason to EXPECT there to be a vampire...is it suddenly a higher CR?
username_in_use

06-01-04, 04:00 PM
Not exactly. The CR-LA difference also reflects that some abilities are more useful for a PC.
Fast healing is much better for a PC than a monster thats not suppose to survive the encounter.
Damage Reduction too. While most PC's have a magic weapon (or the ability the make it magic with spells) your average orcs will be completely owned by a vampire.
Coranathan De'Neren

06-01-04, 07:36 PM
While most PC's have a magic weapon (or the ability the make it magic with spells) your average orcs will be completely owned by a vampire.
You would need a magical silver weapon to bypass the vamp's DR.

Actually it is a little odd that the LA is different for the two sample vamps. If you think about it you basically have to pc's who have the vampire template and different level adjustments, why is the fighter's lower than the monk's? And lower than the LA listed in the book? I think Wotc just messed up again... consitency people! consitency!

As to the difference between the vamp and the vamp spawn, yep, it is a little odd. If you were playing a PC who became a vampire spawn w/ 4 hit die, and then you leveled up, you would get all sorts of new abilities.

I would say go for making your own template with progressive vampire abilities. Most novels and movies portray vampires as gaining powers with age, if that's how you like to see vampires, then make them fit the mold. You might also consider using vampire templates from other sourcebooks.
Perilanku

06-01-04, 10:27 PM
Vampire SPAWN, Vampire SPAWN

The Vampire Spawn is a weak creature, a corpse animated merely by the unholy spirit of the vampire. It has little memories of what it was, and it is a pale comparison to the vampire that made it. It is a wild creature, a feral being of bloodlust. They had weak life to begin with (only 4 or less HD), and they have weak animating life force as an undead.

The Vampire is a person that has become a vampire. They remain themselves, fully, only possessed of an evil spirit and empowered by blood lust and darkness. They had a powerful life force, and their spirit would not be seperated from their body.

Mind you, a Vampire needs to be created with the Blood Drain. The Vampire template is NOT transferable through Energy Drain. A 20th level PC that is killed through Energy Drain becomes a lowly Vampire Spawn, a pale shadow of what it once was. The Curse of the vampire was not properly passed, and the creature that now animates it's body is hardly the same creature.

Think for example Spectres and Shadows and Wights and all those. You lose you're class levels when you become one, you are not the same person. These creatures are Spawn. Vampires are unique in that they can create both Spawn, and a powerful version, Master Vampires if you will.

If you want your old powers back and are a Vampire Spawn, get the Emancipated Spawn Prestige class. It represents a spawn's quest to reclaim what it lost when it became undead. A Vampire Spawn loses what they had, and have to seek their old life out. A True Vampire is simply reborn as a creature of darkness, extra powers added on top of what they are. Vampire Spawn are just undead demons or something in a dead man's body. They can reclaim their own life, only through the Emancipated Spawn class.
thrassoss

06-02-04, 09:58 PM
The prestige class you mentioned from Savage Spicies is good but when the vampire spawn gets enough exp to gain a level it would be a 5hd creature anyway and it would seem get all the full vampire abilities. *shug* oh well thanks for all the response though.
Perilanku

06-02-04, 11:50 PM
No, you see, Vampire Spawn don't become Vampires. They remain Spawn forever and ever, unless you have Ravenloft rules which allow upgrading. Saying a Spawn becomes a Vampire at 5 HD is like saying a Zombie made by a Mohrg becomes a Mohrg when it hits 14 HD. It doesn't. Neither do Vampire Spawn.

Imagine Vampire Spawn as a weak, lesser, servitor race of Vampire. True Vampires can only be spread among those who had life-force enough to retain their identity in the wake of the curse of vampirism. They maintain their levels, their memories, and become full Vampires. Vampire spawn were too weak, or were not properly created (through Blood Drain) and as such only have a weak pale shadow of the curse, becoming a feral weak creature called a Vampire spawn.

Dracula is a Vampire. He kills Lucy Westenra, a 3rd Aristocrat, through blood drain. After burial, she arises as a 4 HD Vampire Spawn. She has very little in common with her life as a human being, she is a creature motivated by her hunger for blood, and as such gets a reputation among the children she eats as "The Bloofer Lady", from their mispronounciation of beautiful. If her husband-to be and friends hadn't of killed her, she would of remained in that monstrous unlife forever, if she ever GAINED any levels it would be ontop of her 4 Undead HD, or would be continuing to advance as a Vampire Spawn. The life of the True Vampire is forever beyond her.

Dracula drains Mina Murray, a 5th level Aristocrat, and turns her into a Vampire. Instead of becoming spawn she gets the Vampire Template, with all the benifits thereof. She remembers all her life before, and has all the same skills and Feats, only more and more from her Vampiric rebirth.

Any clearer now?
captainswift

06-03-04, 05:46 PM
Very nice example, there, Peri.
lostinabook247

06-03-04, 10:02 PM
On a side note, how's this for an insidious plan to annoy a DM...a group of PCs (of level 5+) encounter a vampire. They first find some way to actually kill it (find its coffin, lure it somewhere they can open it up to daylight, whatever) then attack. They allow all but one PC to be killed by blood drain, with the last one running away with the bodies and burying them...then, after the dead PCs come back as vampires, the surviving PC kills the enemy vampire, freeing his companions, who then kill him, and enough random townsfolk to put them over the double-HD limit and free their friend (assuming they don't keep him enslaved, given their now evil alignments...perhaps he has some leverage on them). In fact, if it kills and releases the other PCs, only one needs to be killed originally to become a vampire, leaving most of the group to fight the original bad guy. Either way, the PCs are suddenly 8 ECL higher than they should be...
Ogre4Hire

06-03-04, 10:15 PM
Technically true, but most DMs I know would cause anyone who became a Vampire to become an NPC out of the player's control.

Player: I want to play my old character as a vampire.

DM: That's nice, but you still have to roll up a new character, anyway.
Ruinous

06-04-04, 06:16 AM
The powers of a vampire are more suited to PC's than to NPC's (becuase of the use of them over a period instead of just one encounter) and the penalties that a vampire has are easily bypassed by PC's
Will Brandiman

06-04-04, 06:32 AM
I made a vampire spawn template. When I was doing this it became pretty clear that a spawn's abilities were almost exactly half those of the vampire.

Vampire Spawn

"Vampire Spawn" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature of 4HD or fewer (referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). The creature’s type changes to "undead." It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Hit Dice: Increase to d12.
Speed: Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire spawn retains the ability to swim and is not vulnerable to immersion in running water (see below).
AC: The base creature’s natural armor improves by +3.
Attacks: A vampire spawn retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a slam attack if it didn’t already have one.
Damage: Vampires spawn have slam attacks. If the base creature does not have this attack form, use the damage values in the table below. Creatures with natural attacks retain their old damage ratings or use the values below, whichever is better.
Size Damage
---- ------
Fine 1
Diminutive 1d2
Tiny 1d3
Small 1d4
Medium-size 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
Gargantuan 2d8
Colossal 4d6
Special Attacks: A vampire spawn retains all the special attacks of the base creature and also gains those listed below. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 vampire spawn’s HD + vampire spawn’s Charisma modifier unless noted otherwise.
Charm (Su): This is similar to the vampire’s domination ability, but the save DC is 14, and the effect is similar to charm person as cast by a 5th-level sorcerer. A charmed subject allows the vampire spawn to drain his or her blood (see below). The ability has a range of 30 feet.
Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire spawn’s slam attack receive one negative level. The Fortitude save to remove the negative level has a DC of 14.
Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire spawn can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, inflicting 1d4 points of permanent Constitution drain each round.
Undead: Immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and disease. Not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage.
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire spawn can assume gaseous form at will, as the spell cast by a 6th-level sorcerer, but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Spider Climb (Ex): A vampire spawn can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.
Fast Healing (Ex): A vampire spawn heals 2 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. Once at rest in its coffin, it regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then resumes healing at the rate of 2 hit points per round.
Spawn (Su): A vampire spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s death.
Saves: Same as the base creature
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As undead creatures, vampire spawn have no Constitution score.
Skills: Vampire spawn receive a +4 racial bonus to Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature.
Feats: Vampire spawns gain Alertness, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn’t already have these feats.
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary or pack (2-5)
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Vampire spawn Weaknesses
Vampire spawn cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented, holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire spawn-they merely keep it at bay.
Vampire spawn are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship. They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.
Slaying a Vampire spawn
Simply reducing a vampire spawn’s hit points to 0 or below incapacitates but doesn’t destroy it. However, certain attacks can slay vampire spawn.
Exposing any vampire spawn to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only partial actions and is destroyed utterly on the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire spawn in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round.
Driving a wooden stake through a vampire spawn’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).