Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CryoSilver 11-24-06, 05:30 AM	People complain a lot that the tarrasque is not really much of a CR 20 fight. I agree. This is my submission of a more optimized and tougher Big T. I started by redoing all the feats. I also made him a half-dragon. I use the old stat block, because the new one is evil. Deal. Tarrasque, half white dragon Size/Type: Colossal Dragon Hit Dice: 60d12+840 (hp: 1230) Initiative: +7 Speed: 50 ft, Fly 100 ft (average) Armor Class: 39 (-8 Size, +3 Dex, +34 Natural), Touch 5, Flatfooted 36 Base Attack: +60/+97 Attack: Bite +74 melee (8d6+21 15-20/x3) Full Attack: Bite +74 melee (8d6+22 15-20/x2) and 2 horns +69 melee (1d10+11) and 2 claws +69 melee (1d12+11) and tail slap +69 melee (3d8+11) Space: 30 ft/20 ft Special Attacks: Augmented critical, breath weapon, frightful presence, improved grab, rush, swallow whole Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, darkvision 60 ft, immunity to cold, fire, poison, disease, energy drain, sleep, paralysis and ability damage, low-light vision, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 34 Saves: Fort +46, Ref +35, Will +26 Abilities: Str 54, Dex 16, Con 38, Int 6, Wis 15, Cha 16 Skills: Bluff +66, Hide +50, Jump +85, Listen +13, Spot +13, Tumble +66 Feats: Awesome Blow, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Enduring Life, Improved Initiative, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Natural Attack (bite), Leap Attack, Mobility, Pain Touch, Power Attack, Rapid Stunning, Shock Trooper, Spring Attack, Stand Still, Stunning Fist Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Speed, Epic Will, Spellcasting Harrier Environment: Any Organization: Unique CR: 22 Treasure: None Alignment: Neutral Advancement: 49+ HD The tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, and it weighs about 130 tons. The tarrasque cannot speak. Combat The tarrasque attacks with its claws, teeth, horns, and tail. The tarrasque’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Round 1: BigT is hiding with a DC 60 to spot him. Yes, it is stupid, isn’t it? He’s disguised as a hill. Round 2: Tarrasque charges the PCs; using Dire Charge, Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, one PC is dead, no questions. Remember, he can charge up to 100 feet now; 300 if he uses Rush! He stops to attack at the extent of his reach. Round 3: PCs attempt to move away. If they’re stupid, or expecting a normal Big T, they won’t use the withdraw option, so Big T uses Stand Still to keep them all bunched up, though he might let any melee types move far enough to charge him next round. Charge 10 feet and destroy another PC with Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper. Round 4: Mop up. Augmented Critical (Ex): The tarrasque’s bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18-20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit. Breath Weapon (Su): 30 foot cone of cold. 6d8 damage, save DC 54 Frightful Presence (Su): The tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 43 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the tarrasque must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round. Rush (Ex): Once per minute, the normally slow-moving tarrasque can move at a speed of 150 feet. Swallow Whole (Ex): The tarrasque can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+11 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the tarrasque’s digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 50 points of damage to the tarrasque’s digestive tract (AC 25). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The tarrasque’s gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures. Carapace (Ex): The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance. Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 946 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability. The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 946 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead. If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump. Skills The tarrasque has a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
Garonak 11-24-06, 09:43 AM	You actually feel the need for a more dangerous Tarrasque? The only problem I see with it is that to get a template like half-dragon you'd need a dragon to mate with the tarrasque's parent. As far as I recall the T doesn't have any parents... It's just there, or it could be *what's it called* (when you are both sexes at once, and can impregnate yourself). Is it just me, or is a tad odd that the T has +50 in Hide?
CryoSilver 11-24-06, 09:47 AM	I said it was stupid, didn't I? If you've got better suggetsions for his skills, by all means, share them. I just couldn't think of anything more useful at the moment. He has Tumble, too... And yes, I did feel the need for a more dangerous Tarrasque. No CR 20 monster should be rendered harmless by Fly.
hiryuu 11-24-06, 12:13 PM	I said it was stupid, didn't I? If you've got better suggetsions for his skills, by all means, share them. I just couldn't think of anything more useful at the moment. He has Tumble, too... And yes, I did feel the need for a more dangerous Tarrasque. No CR 20 monster should be rendered harmless by Fly. The tarrasque is meant to be avoided, not fought, and if fought, fought indirectly. If a PC casts fly and runs off, good for him. If anyone else sticks around, they deserve what they get.
Dracomortis 11-24-06, 04:38 PM	The only thing that irks me about the Monster Manual tarrasque and yours is that it has DR x/epic. If you're going to make it unpassable by characters of the level that the tarrasque is supposed to challenge, you might as well make it DR x/-. Personally, I prefer the dicefreaks CR 30 version, but this one isn't a bad remake.
CryoSilver 11-24-06, 05:53 PM	I'm also a fan of the things Dicefreaks produces, but I don't play epic, so CR 30 is a moot point, for me. And if the tarrasque is meant to be avoided, it should still be hard to kill, and it is not, as per MM, because you don't fly away. You fly 30 feet above it and hit it with spells until it dies, and it can;t do a thing about it.
hiryuu 11-24-06, 07:15 PM	No, you can't. The tarrasque can never take real damage.
CryoSilver 11-24-06, 08:14 PM	"Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. W00t!" *Tarrasque is unconscious* "Wish! Pwn!"
Dracomortis 11-24-06, 08:59 PM	Unfortunately, the tarrasque has a reach of 128 feet as a Colossal creature, so that wizard 30 feet above it got owned after the first failed finger of death.
hiryuu 11-25-06, 01:40 AM	He's also got +17 to Jump. Piddly, yes, but it can add a few more feet to that. So, the wizard needs to roll a 12 or higher on SR, then the T needs to roll a natural 1 on its saving throw? Bloody unlikely. Then the wizard needs to go again before the Tarrasque does, otherwise it's standing again with 30 hit points. Even more unlikely.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-25-06, 02:14 AM	"Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. Damn." *Tarrasque claws the air ineffectually* "Finger of Death. W00t!" *Tarrasque is unconscious* "Wish! Pwn!" It's a DC 58 Knowledge check just to know what it is. Unless the wizard can make a Knowledge check with a DC of nearly 100, he's metagaming.
CryoSilver 11-25-06, 08:50 AM	The tarrasque isn't a random encounter; it's assumed that the PCs do substantial research before attempting to fight it. As to 128 foot reach, what are you talking about, dracomortis? Colossal creatures have 20 foot reach. The couple times that groups I was in had to fight, the first time we used the "fly above and use finger of death, then miracle" combo. The other time we lured it into a portal to Limbo.
Derren S. 11-25-06, 09:30 AM	Fly + Invisibility = useless Tarrasque. The Tarrasque is a prime example that without magic, or abilities to counter magic one is useless at higher levels.
Garonak 11-25-06, 09:32 AM	The problem with the fly above it tactic is that it won't help against the half-dragon variant... as it can fly... That makes this variant a bit more difficult to cope with.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-25-06, 10:46 AM	Drop Stunning Fist and Pain Touch and give it Cleave and Great Cleave. This thing should be able to mow through entire armies in seconds.
Dracomortis 11-25-06, 10:49 AM	The tarrasque has a horizontal reach of 20 feet, but a vertical reach of 128 feet, as noted under the Jump skill on page 77 of the Player's Handbook. And as hiryuu pointed out, he has a +17 modifier, which gives him another 4-8 feet, depending on his roll, for a total of 132-136 feet. Plus, fly only lets you move 40 feet per round, or 20 feet if you are ascending. So to get safely out of Big T's reach, the wizard would have to spend 7 rounds flying straight up, praying that T doesn't get to him before he can get that high. And let's not forget that at level 20, finger of death only has a range of 75 feet, which means by the time you're out of reach, you can't hit him with it any more.
Watchdog_of_Hades 11-25-06, 11:08 AM	It's a DC 58 Knowledge check just to know what it is. Unless the wizard can make a Knowledge check with a DC of nearly 100, he's metagaming.Yeah, RAW-wise. But I present you with this: "In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster's HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster." Evidently, the tougher a monster, the more difficult it is to identify! I can just see it now, applied to the real world: —"That? That's a species of butterfly, Anartia amathea. And that's clearly Goliathus scarabaeidae, a type of dung beetle." —"Hmmm. And what's that large... thing, over there?" —"I... I don't know, it's just... too big for me to identify. Could be a bear, maybe, or a whale. No way to tell. We'd better summon the head of the faculty, I hear he can identify bears, sometimes, if they're small enough." Other amusing consequences of this rule: —No one, no one can identify the Tarrasque. Maybe a sagely demi-god could, but certainly no mere mortal. —Dragons start off fairly easy to identify when they're born, but they quickly start contorting themselves into weird, non-Euclidian shapes as they age.
CryoSilver 11-25-06, 12:00 PM	The tarrasque has a horizontal reach of 20 feet, but a vertical reach of 128 feet, as noted under the Jump skill on page 77 of the Player's Handbook. And as hiryuu pointed out, he has a +17 modifier, which gives him another 4-8 feet, depending on his roll, for a total of 132-136 feet. Plus, fly only lets you move 40 feet per round, or 20 feet if you are ascending. So to get safely out of Big T's reach, the wizard would have to spend 7 rounds flying straight up, praying that T doesn't get to him before he can get that high. And let's not forget that at level 20, finger of death only has a range of 75 feet, which means by the time you're out of reach, you can't hit him with it any more. Dimension Door + Enlarge Spell. Or Ghostform. How funny would that be? :P My variant removes that vulnerability, since it can fly. Invisibility can be countered somehow. Hm...
Dracomortis 11-25-06, 12:28 PM	I think I'm missing something here. How does dimension door help at all? You can use it to get out of range, with fly already in place, but then you still can't hit with finger of death. If you're suggesting using it on Big T, it doesn't work on unwilling creatures, enlarged or not.
CryoSilver 11-25-06, 09:52 PM	You D-Door out of range of the T, then use an Enlarged (range 150 feet) Finger of Death until it dies. A lvl 20 sorcerer can do that at least 12 times.
Critical_Failure 11-26-06, 08:10 AM	...but I don't play epic... you don't play epic but you want a scarier terrasque WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE
Derren S. 11-26-06, 08:15 AM	WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE Nothing as with the current inability of the tarrasque to do something against flying or invisible characters you don't even need to be that high level to fight it.
angryman 11-26-06, 08:18 AM	All the Tarrasque needs is the ability to fly and see invisible, and a ranged attack and perhaps some kind of orbital laser, then maybe he'll be scary.
Dracomortis 11-26-06, 11:21 AM	You D-Door out of range of the T, then use an Enlarged (range 150 feet) Finger of Death until it dies. A lvl 20 sorcerer can do that at least 12 times. Using dimension door and a pre-cast fly spell to quickly get out of range is actually a good idea. However, probability is still working against us. (Warning: lots of percentages) Assuming the sorcerer has both the Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration feats, his caster level check would be 1d20+24 at 20th level. So to overcome Big T's spell resistance of 32, he needs to roll an 8 or higher; that's 65% of the time he's going to make it. Then, the only way he's going to get Mr. T to fail his Fortitude save is if it rolls a natural 1, which will happen 5% of the time. Which means the chances of both of these happening is 3.25% every time you cast finger of death. At best, there's a 35.75% chance that it will work after you've depleted 11 of your 8th- and 9th-level spell slots; which, of course, leaves you with only one shot at wish and a 65% chance that it will work...which brings the total to 23.24%. I don't know about you, but anything that requires me to deplete my two highest levels worth of spell slots and still only give me about a 1/4 chance of winning seems pretty challenging.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-26-06, 05:21 PM	There's a feat that lets you take 10 on breaching SR. That takes a good chunk of the guesswork out of that part. You can also use Limited Wish to drop an opponent's save by 7, which would bring our Tarrasque's fort save to 31. Add Bestow Curse and you get 27, which is no longer quite as invulnerable as before to an Empowered Finger of Death.
Dracomortis 11-26-06, 06:46 PM	The penalty imposed by limited wish only applies for the subject's next saving throw, which means you're going to have to cast bestow curse first. While this would certainly work, and take care of the tarrasque in one shot, you're still using five rounds to do all of this. Round 1: Cast fly. Round 2: Use dimension door to get out of "dead wizard" range (140 feet up). Round 3: Bestow curse. Round 4: Limited wish. Round 5: Enlarged finger of death. Round 6: Hope your initiative count is higher than the tarrasque and use wish. That's five rounds that the party cleric, fighter, and rogue are getting raped. Well, the cleric might be okay if he took the Travel domain, as he can use the fly/dimension door trick, but the other two are toast.
Roivas 11-26-06, 08:47 PM	I'd still like to see a 20th level party defeat 4 tarrsques in one day. True there is only one, but the CR system assumes that you will fight 4 battles that day, not just the big T. So how about a battle against a pair of marlilths, then a balor, after that a titan, then finally fight the Tarrasque. Could any normal party of 4 adventurers pull it off? I actually doubt it. The CR on the T seems spot on to me.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-26-06, 09:31 PM	That's five rounds that the party cleric, fighter, and rogue are getting raped. Well, the cleric might be okay if he took the Travel domain, as he can use the fly/dimension door trick, but the other two are toast. Wait, what the hell is the rest of your party doing anywhere within melee range of the Tarrasque anyways. Or are you trying to make me believe there's any way in hell you're actually surprised by a 60 foot tall pile of muderous apetite?!?! It's a Tarrasque. It doesn't catch people by surprise. It's a slowly lumbering mountain of army death.
Dracomortis 11-28-06, 03:32 PM	No, I'm trying to make you believe that any competant DM is not going to place the tarrasque on the opposite side of a 5-mile grassy field so the PCs can hide while the wizard gets ready to lay the smack down with finger of death. It's been said before and I'll say it again: you do not place the tarrasque in an open expanse. You place it right around the bend in a narrow canyon, or in a cave, or hiding underwater if you have to, just place it somewhere where all of the PCs cannot get away.
CryoSilver 11-28-06, 05:53 PM	Canyon: fly away Cave: Passwall Underwater: Tarrasque can't breathe water... This is level 20 here; there is no "unescapable situation" for level 20 characters unless you put them in in an antimagic field naked.
Keterys 11-28-06, 06:20 PM	In one of my games, they're going to end up fighting the Tarrasque at well before 20th level... underground, with no ability to take arbitrary time (because if they leave it alone it will cause other problems) I suspect the druid will just tank it, and easily. Buffed up as an animal, with Elusive Target (removes power attack), Stoneskin, immunity to criticals, and freedom of movement. What's the tarrasque going to do that an occasional healing spell won't stop? It's not exactly the smartest cookie so keeping it away from the rest of the party shouldn't be too hard.
CryoSilver 11-28-06, 06:28 PM	The problem they'll have is keeping it dead; it still regens at 40 hp/round until you Wish it down.
Dracomortis 11-28-06, 06:32 PM	Canyon: fly away Cave: Passwall Underwater: Tarrasque can't breathe water... This is level 20 here; there is no "unescapable situation" for level 20 characters unless you put them in in an antimagic field naked. Canyon: I was implying that, because the PCs cannot in fact see through walls (well, most of them won't be able to), they'll turn the corner right into the tarrasque's face, giving it at least 1 round to mess with them. Plus, chances are not all of the party members can fly. Cave: Odds of them having passwall prepared? Not very good. Also, I was assuming the PCs are supposed to kill the tarrasque, not run away. Underwater: No, but with a Constitution score of 35, it can stay under for 7 minutes straight.
Walls 11-28-06, 06:33 PM	What people don't get with all their super miracle magic killer tactics is I'm the DM. If I want the tarrasque to not die, he won't. :)
Sim_antix 11-28-06, 06:35 PM	nevermind I was wrong...
CryoSilver 11-28-06, 06:39 PM	Canyon: I was implying that, because the PCs cannot in fact see through walls (well, most of them won't be able to), they'll turn the corner right into the tarrasque's face, giving it at least 1 round to mess with them. Plus, chances are not all of the party members can fly. They'd probably hear it coming, unless it was standing still for some reason. And even then, they'd most likely win initiative (at least the fragile ones with higher Dex would, and any clericor fighter can stand up to Big T for at least 1 round no problem). Cave: Odds of them having passwall prepared? Not very good. Also, I was assuming the PCs are supposed to kill the tarrasque, not run away. Then Teleport, Plane Shift, Ethereal Jaunt, Wall of Stone, Dimension Door, or a dozen other spells that I know MY casters always have prepped at high levels for occasions like this. Underwater: No, but with a Constitution score of 35, it can stay under for 7 minutes straight. And will have many problems effectively fighting the PCs, who have magic on their side to help them fighte effectively, whereas Big T does not.
Fat Man 11-28-06, 06:39 PM	Here's something the tarrasque can do against flying things throw a fething big rock at them all he needs is one more feet Weapon focus: mountain range
CryoSilver 11-28-06, 06:41 PM	It has Int 3; would it think to do that?
Keterys 11-28-06, 06:41 PM	Yeah, their big challenge is to figure out how to do enough damage. They will have some help, in the form of a reluctant Pit Fiend (the source of the Wish) - it wants to live, but it's not opposed to some of them dying. But, they basically had an oracle tell them what the Tarrasque was, and how long they had before it destroyed the world, and where possible wishes were. So they went to one and made a deal with the devil to get its aid, and they'll be going in very prepared, with knowledge of its weaknesses and strengths. At somewhere between 14th and 16th level (presumably more towards the latter, but we'll see) In the campaign, the tarrasque is the child of a fiendish red dragon and goddess of chaos, and the Wish was explained as being necessary to take down its 'demigod' status long enough for it to actually die. So the Knowledge check aspect was all taken care of.
CryoSilver 11-28-06, 06:44 PM	It would take a while for the tarrasque to destroy the world. I mean, after all, it's about the size of a house.
Keterys 11-28-06, 06:45 PM	Eh. This one is trying to break something. If it breaks it, the world ends. Tarrasques are good at breaking things.
CryoSilver 11-28-06, 06:45 PM	Not really; it needs Improved Sunder :P
Keterys 11-28-06, 06:56 PM	Eh, what's it really care about opportunity attacks. It's +57 to hit at a point when your fighter types shouldn't be over +40 or so... it can take -17 to hit for power attack and destroy just about anything in melee. But, more importantly, it's a stationary object that is not able to be destroyed except by a god (or something of god-like power, hence its status) and no god would do it, but the tarrasque is too stupid to know any better ;) Still has a bajillion hit points, so they've got a couple days til it destroys the world. So, they're pretty frantically looking for other stuff to help fight it.
TheAngryFish 11-28-06, 07:18 PM	No one can KILL a tarrasque without knowing they are going off to hunt it. No caster is going to fill up all their spells with single target death attacks, and they arent going to have enough spell per day to have enough death spells to effect the tarrasque without luck and then cast wish afterwards, and miracle probably wouldn't work either(unless for some reason your diety actually cares wether the tarrasque lives or not)
CryoSilver 11-28-06, 08:57 PM	So craft a staff of Finger of Death
Kyuketsukiouji 11-28-06, 09:38 PM	Also, I was assuming the PCs are supposed to kill the tarrasque, not run away. I'm assuming the PCs are supposed to kill the tarrasque, not commit monster-assisted suicide.
Nadaka 11-28-06, 10:34 PM	I'd still like to see a 20th level party defeat 4 tarrsques in one day. True there is only one, but the CR system assumes that you will fight 4 battles that day, not just the big T. So how about a battle against a pair of marlilths, then a balor, after that a titan, then finally fight the Tarrasque. Could any normal party of 4 adventurers pull it off? I actually doubt it. The CR on the T seems spot on to me. Its rather easy to kill 4 big Ts in one day if you can find them. I can do it with 4 wizards. or 4 sorcerers, or 4 druids(and 4 command word wishes), or 4 clerics with the animal domain (ok, so this last one is a bit harder as the cleric only has one 9th level domain slot). Or any combination of the above. Wizards are probably the easiest. it only takes 1 round and 3 spells for each bigT you kill (plus buffs and transportation). Round 1: whoever beats the big Ts initiative shapechanges to a blue whale and quickened-silent-dimension doors to bellyflop the the bigT for just under 2000d6 damage. one of the other wizards uses wish to keep it dead. one of the other wizards uses uses limited wish or a misc potion of cure X wounds to restore any damage that got through mr whales pre-cast buffs. the fourth wizard uses some kind of divination to locate the next big T. round 2: teleport. round 3+, repeat as needed.
Keterys 11-29-06, 12:31 AM	I wonder how many games that trick works in... I mean... no attack roll to hit it with the blue whale? Or reflex save? Also, said blue whale won't have its item of freedom of movement any more so the Tarrasque could always just grapple it with its combat reflexes. And, really, why not just polymorph any object a rock into a blue whale instead of the wizard. No need to take the falling damage, even if it ends up being just a die of damage. But, yeah, I've never been in a game where that tactic would work. Are you in one? Now, some of the more elaborate tactics do allow you to kill it with far less resources than 4 20th level casters (do a google search for tarrasque sometime, there's a whole writeup on many ways to kill it at level 13 (to max out the XP gain))
CryoSilver 11-29-06, 02:02 AM	Barbarian + Righteous Might item + Power Attack + Leap Attack + Brilliant Energy Greatsword + buffed Str = a metric **** ton of damage to T, who is also not immune to criticals, and therefore also subject to sneak atatcks, making a gish TWFer with sneak attack much more useful.
Derren S. 11-29-06, 02:38 AM	Brilliant Energy Greatsword Useless as it doesn't ignore natural armor.
CryoSilver 11-29-06, 10:55 AM	Good point. So get an item that allows True Strike 1/day or something.
Derren S. 11-29-06, 11:38 AM	You want a Wraithstrike item.
Nadaka 11-29-06, 04:10 PM	I wonder how many games that trick works in... I mean... no attack roll to hit it with the blue whale? Or reflex save? Also, said blue whale won't have its item of freedom of movement any more so the Tarrasque could always just grapple it with its combat reflexes. And, really, why not just polymorph any object a rock into a blue whale instead of the wizard. No need to take the falling damage, even if it ends up being just a die of damage. But, yeah, I've never been in a game where that tactic would work. Are you in one? Now, some of the more elaborate tactics do allow you to kill it with far less resources than 4 20th level casters (do a google search for tarrasque sometime, there's a whole writeup on many ways to kill it at level 13 (to max out the XP gain)) no attack roll would be required to place the DD or even if using a extra round to fly to the location before changing to whale. To borrow a rule from another d20 game there might be a reflex save for a collossal falling object is dc 35 take half damage (note that a collossal object is actually two categories smaller than a collossal creature, so the dc could be as high as 45 with some DM adjucation). As the big T doesn't have evasion and 1000d6 is still more than enough to take it down, it should work. As for "would I let this happen in my game?" The answer? nope. I would either houserule that the falling object also takes damage based on its weight, or change the spell in some way to prevent this. But the rules are as they are, this is a perfectly valid tactic, though it is likely that your DM will invent some houserules rather quickly if you do this.
Keterys 11-29-06, 04:19 PM	But the rules are as they are, this is a perfectly valid tactic Actually, it isn't. There's no rule for actually hitting the Tarrasque with the whale. If you try to do a bull rush, grapple, etc, it does no damage based on its weight. There's no rule for it. There are rules for being hit by 'tons of rocks' - you take 8d6, save for half, and may be buried, but the blue whale isn't actually bigger than the tarrasque so it's likely not buried. There are rules for being hit by falling objects, but no rules for being hit by falling creatures, nor are there rules for how to determine if you're hit by a falling object. Further, there is a 20d6 cap on falling damage and the object weight rule does not state it overrides that cap. So, in the same sense that a tarrasque (or large dragon) can't 'make a jump check' and deal thousands of d6 to anyone arbitrarily, nor can anyone else. (glance at 'Crush' sometime) No house rule required.
Nadaka 11-29-06, 04:39 PM	Actually, it isn't. There's no rule for actually hitting the Tarrasque with the whale. If you try to do a bull rush, grapple, etc, it does no damage based on its weight. There's no rule for it. There are rules for being hit by 'tons of rocks' - you take 8d6, save for half, and may be buried, but the blue whale isn't actually bigger than the tarrasque so it's likely not buried. There are rules for being hit by falling objects, but no rules for being hit by falling creatures, nor are there rules for how to determine if you're hit by a falling object. Further, there is a 20d6 cap on falling damage and the object weight rule does not state it overrides that cap. So, in the same sense that a tarrasque (or large dragon) can't 'make a jump check' and deal thousands of d6 to anyone arbitrarily, nor can anyone else. (glance at 'Crush' sometime) No house rule required. the 20d6 cap has been proven false so many times, I grow weary of the arguement. The 20d6 cap is for distance, the damage by weight is entirely different and not subject to the cap. A creature IS an object and is not a loose collection of collapsing bricks. And you are right, there are no rules in D&D for being hit by falling objects, there are none for being missed by them either. Is it perhaps an oversight? Probably. But in the absence of specific rules to the contrary, you have to make your judgements based on the rest of the rules. An object/creature falls, its area encompasses your entire space, the object hits you. Dont like it? Fine! Neither do I. What are you going to do? Add rules where there are none, or change the ones that are to your liking. Thats fine too. Its what I do. The simplest and most logical houserule to this tactic is making the falling object take damage based on its weight as well, afterall a whale falling from the sky is rather likely to go splash as well, It would also prevent large creatures from making a jump check to achieve similar results. A 96ft blue whale is definately "bigger" than a tarrasque that is at most 70ft in length 30ft base + 2 x 20ft reach.
Keterys 11-29-06, 04:48 PM	But in the absence of specific rules to the contrary, you have to make your judgements based on the rest of the rules. An object/creature falls, its area encompasses your entire space, the object hits you. A giant hurls a boulder at a person, it's as big as the person, does it autohit? HmmNo, it's far more logical to assume that there is either a hit roll or reflex save involved, and no reason to expect any half damage on a miss or successful save. A tarrasque cannot do a jumping charge and add 700d6 to its damage, nor can creatures choose to 'charge down' on another creature they are flying above for similar damage. I mean, they can, and it gives +2 to hit, or lets them bull rush, etc... but it's really not all that impressive. I can't cast a fireball into a tightly enclosed space and claim that everyone in it has to begin making con checks to breathe, because while it's logical that oxygen is burned off, it's not a part of the game. Nor is this tactic.
TheAngryFish 11-30-06, 06:11 PM	Its rather easy to kill 4 big Ts in one day if you can find them. I can do it with 4 wizards. or 4 sorcerers, or 4 druids(and 4 command word wishes), or 4 clerics with the animal domain grabbing four twentieth level casters who will group up long enough time to kill a tarrasque is about as hard as finding four tarrasques.
canman13 11-30-06, 06:53 PM	you have something seriosly wrong or your players do the latter is more likely the big T is the strongest there is unless your party has an unlimited casts of wish then their out of luck
FreAkOuTRG 11-30-06, 08:03 PM	DON'T PANIC
CryoSilver 11-30-06, 08:11 PM	The tarrasque's Regeneration is a very limited defense, as has been shown. It fails to protect against: Ability drain Polymorphing Petrification Imprisonment Banishment Soul Trapping Summoning a horde of creatures with save or dies and a solar to cast Wish Plane Shifting to Carceri
Lycanthromancer 11-30-06, 10:37 PM	You know, if *I* was going to be going up against a tarrasque or 15, I think I'd make judicious use of Shrink Item, along with some 67,200 pound granite boulders (1 cubic foot of granite weighs 168 pounds, and 67,200 pounds is the maximum that a level 20 casting can shrink). With a single casting of Telekinesis (once again at level 20) and some rather heavy boxes of shrunken boulders, I've calculated that I can dole out 1,008,000d6 points of damage, divided up to 15 ways. Telekinetically thrust the boxes - each thrust knocks out 25,200,000 pounds of boulders, shrunken down to a mere 375 lbs. Keep in mind, I could easily port in numerous boxes of these with a Gate spell positioned under a huge pile, and could blow virtually my entire arsenal of 5th-level-plus spells on nothing but Telekinesis (though I was thinking of just making a wand). Although it still needs a roll to hit. Do you think that the tarrasque's natural armor will protect it against 25 million pounds of rock flying toward it? Gee, I hope I can get past its DR... In any case, after I've knocked the bejeezus out of it, use my Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken to cast Gate under it, sending it to the Elemental Plane of Water where it will drown within a few minutes. And since its regeneration doesn't protect against drowning (as it's not damage), we're golden. Or, Gate it to Bytopia, and let them take care of it. All of this, and no XP expenditure involved.
Critical_Failure 12-04-06, 10:05 AM	You know, if *I* was going to be going up against a tarrasque or 15, I think I'd make judicious use of Shrink Item, along with some 67,200 pound granite boulders (1 cubic foot of granite weighs 168 pounds, and 67,200 pounds is the maximum that a level 20 casting can shrink). With a single casting of Telekinesis (once again at level 20) and some rather heavy boxes of shrunken boulders, I've calculated that I can dole out 1,008,000d6 points of damage, divided up to 15 ways. Telekinetically thrust the boxes - each thrust knocks out 25,200,000 pounds of boulders, shrunken down to a mere 375 lbs. Keep in mind, I could easily port in numerous boxes of these with a Gate spell positioned under a huge pile, and could blow virtually my entire arsenal of 5th-level-plus spells on nothing but Telekinesis (though I was thinking of just making a wand). Although it still needs a roll to hit. Do you think that the tarrasque's natural armor will protect it against 25 million pounds of rock flying toward it? Gee, I hope I can get past its DR... In any case, after I've knocked the bejeezus out of it, use my Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken to cast Gate under it, sending it to the Elemental Plane of Water where it will drown within a few minutes. And since its regeneration doesn't protect against drowning (as it's not damage), we're golden. Or, Gate it to Bytopia, and let them take care of it. All of this, and no XP expenditure involved. :bow: :clap: :bow: you sir, are a genious seeing as the tarrasque could be defeated that easily by a lone spellcaster, the cr should be 3
Keterys 12-04-06, 12:23 PM	Gate only works if it chooses to step through. Not to say you can't trick a tarrasque into doing so. Wasn't there a discussion recently about how shrink item and telekinesis don't work together? (ie, cause you hit them with the object at its shrunk weight, then it resumes it's normal weight as it slides to the ground) Doesn't really matter, though.
Lycanthromancer 12-04-06, 02:13 PM	Gate only works if it chooses to step through. Not to say you can't trick a tarrasque into doing so. Wasn't there a discussion recently about how shrink item and telekinesis don't work together? (ie, cause you hit them with the object at its shrunk weight, then it resumes it's normal weight as it slides to the ground) Doesn't really matter, though. According to the wording on the Gate spell, you don't have to have a gate positioned upright. You can have it laying along the ground, or at any wonky angle you want. So, given that you can position it flat along the ground, underneath the battered, unconscious tarrasque (and that unconscious creatures are always considered willing), you can send it anywhere you like. And even if, for some reason, using Telekinesis won't work, you can always fill up a Portable Hole or a Bag of Holding, dump them out while flying above the tarrasque, then crush it from a nice safe distance. DEATH FROM ABOVE! (www.dominic-deegan.com) [edit] Also, given the crushing damage that would be going on from being trapped under all of those boulders, you wouldn't even have to do anything else to it. Just leave it there, constantly being crushed by a mountain of stone that is causing so much damage that its regeneration can't keep up.
THETUNNELRAT 12-04-06, 02:50 PM	My god its a Tarrasque its already the scariest monsters in the game.
Lycanthromancer 12-04-06, 02:56 PM	Except for dragons. And titans. And anything that can fly. And incorporeal foes. And anything epic. And most fiends. And the more powerful undead. And pseudonatural creatures. And...Yeah. Tarrasques are highly overrated.
Grod_The_Giant 12-04-06, 03:32 PM	forcecage. No SR, no save. rock-to-mud, then mud-to-rock.
FreAkOuTRG 12-04-06, 03:43 PM	Tarrasques were scary. Until PC's got too smart.
Lycanthromancer 12-04-06, 04:20 PM	That's called natural selection. All the dumb people died when it became cool to be a nerd.
Prak, the Mad 12-04-06, 04:56 PM	So craft a staff of Finger of Death hmmm... what would that look like... and to the person that said a Tarrasque can't be half-dragon... Wish can add a template.
Garonak 12-04-06, 05:02 PM	hmmm... what would that look like... and to the person that said a Tarrasque can't be half-dragon... Wish can add a template. Are you sure? Thanks... I've been looking for a way to do that...
Keterys 12-04-06, 05:21 PM	Well, I was referring to this part of Gate: 'anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported.' So... maybe an unconscious tarrasque would count. The dumping objects from over it really doesn't work, since they'd still be shrunk til after they'd already hit. Unless you're arguing you can put that much weight into the portable hole, then put it on a surface, then move the surface to over the tarrasque such that the hole is upside down. Pretty easy to shoot that one down, but it's more viable. In general, 'objects falling' doesn't really work as a tactic in dnd - unless you're a Hulking Hurler type who can actually make people take that damage :) Forcecage is too small to house the tarrasque. The usual method of 'sink it in a hole' does work, of course.
Prak, the Mad 12-04-06, 09:50 PM	Are you sure? Thanks... I've been looking for a way to do that... I think so. *checking* ok, so it doesn't explicitly say so, but it can do pretty much anything... you just have to be very specific in your wording
Keterys 12-05-06, 01:02 AM	Wish can't do 'anything' any more than meteor swarm 'just kills you'. It's only a 9th level spell. There are rules for adding templates in Savage Species, though, fwiw.
Prak, the Mad 12-05-06, 01:21 AM	the spell description's wording is very open, it might cost a large amount of XP(my personal ruling would be XP according to LA), it can add templates, but you have to word it extremely carefully. ("I wish to be a Half Red Dragon!"*poof, and now the rear half of a red dragon lies on the ground, bleeding*)
Norsesmithy 12-05-06, 02:45 AM	For my party, the tarresque fight went like this (actually this was the third time we saw it, we ran to go research after the first time, and we were busy evacuating a city the second.) Initiative (no surprise round) Paladin 18 (me), Sorcerer 18, Scout 17, Barbarian 17, Cleric 18, Tarresque. Round one Paladin full attacks with his Solar Greatbow he got from a solar (using his wish SLA) for stopping the Ritual gating of a Balor. 5 arrows, range 450 feet. All five hit, Big T fails his third saving throw. Sorcerer Wishes. Kingdom saved.
Marendithas_the_Necro 12-05-06, 09:47 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20051109a
CryoSilver 12-29-06, 07:25 PM	Well, anyways. I added the half dragon template not on the assumption of a half-dragon tarrasque, but of a tarrasque that can fly and happens to have a breath weapon. I used half-dragon strictly from a mechanical perspective. It could as easily have been half-fiend, or half celestial. Heck, I coulda just slapped wings on it. Anyways, that article overlooks one thing: the tarrasque has Toughness six times. Just tweaking that and replcing one Toughness with Improved Toughness while divvying up five new feats can make it a lot hairier to fight.
Behaigo 12-30-06, 04:50 PM	The penalty imposed by limited wish only applies for the subject's next saving throw, which means you're going to have to cast bestow curse first. While this would certainly work, and take care of the tarrasque in one shot, you're still using five rounds to do all of this. Round 1: Cast fly. Round 2: Use dimension door to get out of "dead wizard" range (140 feet up). Round 3: Bestow curse. Round 4: Limited wish. Round 5: Enlarged finger of death. Round 6: Hope your initiative count is higher than the tarrasque and use wish. That's five rounds that the party cleric, fighter, and rogue are getting raped. Well, the cleric might be okay if he took the Travel domain, as he can use the fly/dimension door trick, but the other two are toast. Bestow curse has a range of touch. ...just sayin'
Archimedes314 12-30-06, 06:36 PM	Just set up a permanent teleportation circle keyed to the deepest part of the ocean at the entrance to its lair. Problem solved.
CryoSilver 12-30-06, 07:12 PM	The penalty imposed by limited wish only applies for the subject's next saving throw, which means you're going to have to cast bestow curse first. While this would certainly work, and take care of the tarrasque in one shot, you're still using five rounds to do all of this. Round 1: Cast fly. Round 2: Use dimension door to get out of "dead wizard" range (140 feet up). Round 3: Bestow curse. Round 4: Limited wish. Round 5: Enlarged finger of death. Round 6: Hope your initiative count is higher than the tarrasque and use wish. That's five rounds that the party cleric, fighter, and rogue are getting raped. Well, the cleric might be okay if he took the Travel domain, as he can use the fly/dimension door trick, but the other two are toast. That's pretty inefficient. Round 1: Cleric (Improved Invisible thanks to spell from wizard): Casts Maximized (via rod) Energy Drain. Wizard (also Improved Invisible): Uses Quickened Limited Wish (via rod) to impose another -7. Casts Maximized Enervation. Round 2: Wizard: casts Dominate Monster. The tarrasque CANNOT succeed, even on a natural 20, because it's Will save is at +1 against a minimum DC of 23. Next however many days it takes: cast save or dies, while cleric readies an action to cast Miracle. You can order the Tarrasque to do whatever you want. Summoning monsters and ordering it to eat them is certainly an option.
Dracomortis 12-30-06, 07:21 PM	Okay, okay, I admit defeat. But really, your plan still takes 3 rounds (as the wizard needs at least one with Quicken Spell to make both him and the cleric invisible). Also, the tarrasque has a 30% chance to reflect the spell onto the wizard...and now it has a pet human to fling fireballs for it :D.
PhaedrusXY 12-30-06, 07:49 PM	You should use the Half-Fiend (or Half-Celestial) template instead of Half-Dragon. Then it would get Blasphemy with a caster level equal to its hit dice, along with several other SLAs. :D Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7981691&postcount=42) is another really scary high CR beastie that might interest you, if you like the Tarrasque.
CryoSilver 12-30-06, 07:57 PM	Okay, okay, I admit defeat. But really, your plan still takes 3 rounds (as the wizard needs at least one with Quicken Spell to make both him and the cleric invisible). Also, the tarrasque has a 30% chance to reflect the spell onto the wizard...and now it has a pet human to fling fireballs for it :D. No reflection: Dominate isn't a ray, cone, spread, etc. You're also assuming the PCs will be toally surprised by the Tarrasque and have no time to prepare. Considering that the Tarrasque is so big, I doubt that would happen. Anyways: Round 1: Cleric uses Quickened (via rod) Miracle to simulate a Twinned Improved Invisibility spell for him and the Wizard. Now he casts Maximized (via other rod) Energy Drain. Rest of the plan same as before. Still 2 rounds :P