A word about dragons... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A word about dragons... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kheti sa-Menik
07-09-03, 04:19 AM Alright....I need some thoughts from the experts amongst you.
I want to have dragons in a campaign world I am designing....however...I want them to be nonmagic-using.

Yep....old-style myth and legend type of dragons. They're big, they're bad, full of teeth and claws and breath weapons. I'd like them to be exactly like those in the MM...the different types with different breath weapons, ranging from semi intelligent to very intelligent along with the fear aura...but without the spell casting ability.

Think this is viable? How would you ramp up the CR or ELs?
Without the use of spells, would you do anything to the dragons to make them tougher? I was thinking about simply using them right out of the MM but simply denying them their spells...but I am afraid that their spells represent a significant portion of a dragon's CR..especially the older dragons.

Anyone tried this before?
Cthulthoth_the_Callin_Chaos
07-09-03, 04:21 AM I'd keep the CR the same when dealing with low-level spellcasting. At 5th--9th caster level, the CR would be down by 1. 10-14, -2 CR. 15+, -3.
thalious
07-09-03, 04:25 AM Dragons without spells. I don't use CR or ECL so I can't help you on that aspect.

As far as what to do to compensate the dragon for the loss of spells, that I can help with.

Maybe give the Dragon 10% more HP, somewhat increased Breath Weapon damage dice, and a couple extra innate abilities.
Cesare Corvus
07-09-03, 05:18 AM I'd replace the caster levels the dragons are losing with class levels. Blue and black dragons are sneaky, so rogue fits. Green dragons could be rangers. White dragons would be barbarians. Cunning red dragons become fighters and vicious ones go barbarian. I'd probably keep the hit dice the same, just add the class abilities.
Kheti sa-Menik
07-09-03, 05:25 AM Originally posted by Cesare Corvus
I'd replace the caster levels the dragons are losing with class levels. Blue and black dragons are sneaky, so rogue fits. Green dragons could be rangers. White dragons would be barbarians. Cunning red dragons become fighters and vicious ones go barbarian. I'd probably keep the hit dice the same, just add the class abilities.

*grins* Good idea....it just got me picturing some funny scenes in my head....like the Colossal Ancient Wyrm Black dragon sneaking up on a unsuspecting party to deliver sneak attacks ;)
all several hundred tons of him....and him using evasion....can you imagine a dragon of this size doing olympic-caliber sommersaults and flattening against walls for his reflex save....

and man....an ancient white dragon barbarian rages....whoa...
I'd rule another fear aura will save and possibly a save vs "going weewee in your chainmail/wizard robes and running like a scared little girl"
Kheti sa-Menik
07-12-03, 04:43 AM Thanks for all who contributed. My big concern was scaling the beasts and take out their magic and all of these suggestions work on some level.
I appreciate it fellows!
louissan
07-12-03, 05:43 AM Hi there,

Maybe it all depends on the overall 'power level' used in your campaign. If your characters are, say, 7th level, I think there would be no need to add character levels to a mature dragon in order to have them **ee in their pants :D

There may be some stats of a stupider kind of dragon called Wurms, but I'm definitely not sure. They are draconic, but lack any spell ability. I may be wrong, this off the top of my head ... so go check it somewhere :)

Just an idea.

Cheers :)
Halfling Warri0r
07-12-03, 07:28 AM hmm dragons with no spells I think lower CR by 1/3 (ex.: a 30CR dragon becomes a CR20 one)
or just dont lower CR and give them more special abbs. and more HP and damage (dragons **** without spells)
Edymnion
07-12-03, 04:58 PM One particularly lethal way to replace spells is to let the dragon turn it's head while delivering it's breath weapon. Line attacks become cones, cones become half-circles. Just make it use up 2-3 breath attacks to do it (as in instead of waiting 3 rounds to do it again, it has to wait 6-9), but it'll surprise the heck out of the party when that red dragon suddenly sprays half the battlefield in dragonfire.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kheti sa-Menik 07-09-03, 04:19 AM	Alright....I need some thoughts from the experts amongst you. I want to have dragons in a campaign world I am designing....however...I want them to be nonmagic-using. Yep....old-style myth and legend type of dragons. They're big, they're bad, full of teeth and claws and breath weapons. I'd like them to be exactly like those in the MM...the different types with different breath weapons, ranging from semi intelligent to very intelligent along with the fear aura...but without the spell casting ability. Think this is viable? How would you ramp up the CR or ELs? Without the use of spells, would you do anything to the dragons to make them tougher? I was thinking about simply using them right out of the MM but simply denying them their spells...but I am afraid that their spells represent a significant portion of a dragon's CR..especially the older dragons. Anyone tried this before?
Cthulthoth_the_Callin_Chaos 07-09-03, 04:21 AM	I'd keep the CR the same when dealing with low-level spellcasting. At 5th--9th caster level, the CR would be down by 1. 10-14, -2 CR. 15+, -3.
thalious 07-09-03, 04:25 AM	Dragons without spells. I don't use CR or ECL so I can't help you on that aspect. As far as what to do to compensate the dragon for the loss of spells, that I can help with. Maybe give the Dragon 10% more HP, somewhat increased Breath Weapon damage dice, and a couple extra innate abilities.
Cesare Corvus 07-09-03, 05:18 AM	I'd replace the caster levels the dragons are losing with class levels. Blue and black dragons are sneaky, so rogue fits. Green dragons could be rangers. White dragons would be barbarians. Cunning red dragons become fighters and vicious ones go barbarian. I'd probably keep the hit dice the same, just add the class abilities.
Kheti sa-Menik 07-09-03, 05:25 AM	Originally posted by Cesare Corvus I'd replace the caster levels the dragons are losing with class levels. Blue and black dragons are sneaky, so rogue fits. Green dragons could be rangers. White dragons would be barbarians. Cunning red dragons become fighters and vicious ones go barbarian. I'd probably keep the hit dice the same, just add the class abilities. grins Good idea....it just got me picturing some funny scenes in my head....like the Colossal Ancient Wyrm Black dragon sneaking up on a unsuspecting party to deliver sneak attacks ;) all several hundred tons of him....and him using evasion....can you imagine a dragon of this size doing olympic-caliber sommersaults and flattening against walls for his reflex save.... and man....an ancient white dragon barbarian rages....whoa... I'd rule another fear aura will save and possibly a save vs "going weewee in your chainmail/wizard robes and running like a scared little girl"
Kheti sa-Menik 07-12-03, 04:43 AM	Thanks for all who contributed. My big concern was scaling the beasts and take out their magic and all of these suggestions work on some level. I appreciate it fellows!
louissan 07-12-03, 05:43 AM	Hi there, Maybe it all depends on the overall 'power level' used in your campaign. If your characters are, say, 7th level, I think there would be no need to add character levels to a mature dragon in order to have them **ee in their pants :D There may be some stats of a stupider kind of dragon called Wurms, but I'm definitely not sure. They are draconic, but lack any spell ability. I may be wrong, this off the top of my head ... so go check it somewhere :) Just an idea. Cheers :)
Halfling Warri0r 07-12-03, 07:28 AM	hmm dragons with no spells I think lower CR by 1/3 (ex.: a 30CR dragon becomes a CR20 one) or just dont lower CR and give them more special abbs. and more HP and damage (dragons **** without spells)
Edymnion 07-12-03, 04:58 PM	One particularly lethal way to replace spells is to let the dragon turn it's head while delivering it's breath weapon. Line attacks become cones, cones become half-circles. Just make it use up 2-3 breath attacks to do it (as in instead of waiting 3 rounds to do it again, it has to wait 6-9), but it'll surprise the heck out of the party when that red dragon suddenly sprays half the battlefield in dragonfire.