Aboleth and Wizard Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Aboleth and Wizard Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mindwin
09-27-06, 06:19 PM The aboleth entry in the MM 1, page 9 shows that wizard are associated class levels for the aboleth race. WHY?????

Could anyone enlighten me: Why are Wizard Levels Associated Class Levels for Aboleths?

I tried customer support, but they just said:

Customer (Denis Camargo) 09/26/2006 09:49 AM
<original Message>

The aboleth is a 8hd aberration. It has no wizard levels or wizard spell-like. Only psionics. CR 7

The aboleth 10th lv mage has CR 17 listed. Why are wizard levels "associated class levels" for the aboleth? according to the rules in the same book, the first 8 levels of wizard should net the aboleth only 4 CR, reducing it to a CR 13 creature.

So heres my question: Why are wizard levels "associated class levels" for the aboleth?

Subject
Aboleth Mage (mm1, pg 9) and Associated Class Levels.

Discussion Thread
Response (<name deleted on purpose>) 09/26/2006 10:05 AM
Hello Denis,

Unfortunately we cannot help you with the "whys" behind the rules. The Wizard levels are indeed associated class levels and will raise the Aboleth's CR on a one for one basis!

Good Luck and Game On!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

(<name deleted on purpose>)

Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast

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Dunamin
09-28-06, 05:28 AM So much for customer support...

While it is a capable melee combatant, the aboleth is mostly about it's spell-like abilites (its "psionics"). As many spells can compliment these, a wizard is considered an associated class.

An aboleth can mask its precense and make its environment seem very different quite effectively via its illusory capabilities. With proper spells, it can damage, capture or otherwise harass a group of enemies, without making its precense known, by hiding in illusory environment and/or among illusory allies.

If you are playing with psionics in your game, feel free to change the aboleth's abilities to psionic powers and its favored class to a psion, if that is more to your taste.

Hope any of that was helpful!
runestar
09-28-06, 06:01 AM I guess there is no why here - each individual has his own views on just what constitutes an associated class, so I would say just use your own good judgement.

For example, I was surprised to find that while druids are apparently a non-associated class for dragons, wiz is considered an associated class for them. Likewise, sorc is an associated class for mindflayer in the MM but is nonassociated in lords of madness.

Different designers have different criteria on this, I guess.:P
PhaedrusXY
09-28-06, 06:07 AM I was dissapointed that they didn't just give the aboleth effective psion levels in the XPH (as with the Unbodied, and Illithid), instead of giving it Psi-like abilities.
Dunamin
09-28-06, 09:03 AM For example, I was surprised to find that while druids are apparently a non-associated class for dragons, wiz is considered an associated class for them. Likewise, sorc is an associated class for mindflayer in the MM but is nonassociated in lords of madness.
Wizards / sorcerers for dragons and mind flayers is probably more a matter of flavor.
Dragons are often seen as symbols of arcane might, even though they generally are more capable and dangerous in melee and with breath weapons. Mind Flayers are masters of psionics, but as psionics rules are not part of core material, sorcerers are the next best thing in terms of flavor (both sorcerers and psionic classes play on the whole "inner power" thing).

Didn't know druids were a non-associated class for dragons, where did you find this information?
CzarGarrett
09-28-06, 09:18 AM If using the magic/psionics transparency, Wizard = Psion.

I don't see the problem here.
runestar
09-28-06, 10:17 AM Didn't know druids were a non-associated class for dragons, where did you find this information?
From dragons of faerun. It has tons of stats of various dragons, some with an assortment of class lvs, so you can infer what classes are treated as associated and which are not.:)

For example, Daurgothoth, a great wyrm black dragon dracolich wiz20/archmage5 is a staggering cr50.:eek: There is an old gold dragon with 11 lvs of druid(cr26, implying the druid lvs are non-associated). Wiz, sorc and rogue lvs appear to be associated as well.

Eric Bloyd clarified that wiz lvs are associated for dragons, though he did not elaborate on the rationale behind it.
Mindwin
09-29-06, 06:22 PM From dragons of faerun. It has tons of stats of various dragons, some with an assortment of class lvs, so you can infer what classes are treated as associated and which are not.:)

For example, Daurgothoth, a great wyrm black dragon dracolich wiz20/archmage5 is a staggering cr50.:eek: There is an old gold dragon with 11 lvs of druid(cr26, implying the druid lvs are non-associated). Wiz, sorc and rogue lvs appear to be associated as well.

Eric Bloyd clarified that wiz lvs are associated for dragons, though he did not elaborate on the rationale behind it.

Sorcerer for Dragons is associated, no shade of doubt. Stacking spellcasting, odd spellcasting levels (and sorcerer gain spell levels in even levels).

Rogue? Of course. Think of a dragon, with his 6+ attacks, invisible and sneak attacking. Or flanking with some summon. Rogue must be Associated Class Levels (ACL) for a creature with lots of attacks.

Any +1 BAB class. Dragons are fighting machines. They are all ACL. Raging dragons? Weapon Specialization (claw)? Hide in plain sight dragon? LOLz. Put monk here too. WIS to AC?? ROFL.

Druid/cleric? I dont know here. The two classes have good combat abilities, and if a dragon gets to some of those Draconomicon (sorcerer becomes cleric levels) prestiges, oh my. I think they are good enough classes to be associated for everyone.

Wizard... More on dragon wizards below.

IMHO its fubar. Lets say a dragon with 9 levels of sorcerer spellcasting. And a CR of 14. He adds 10 levels of wizard. CR pops by 10. Now he can cast almost double the amount of lv 5 spells. As if the characters able to face a CR 24 challenge would be afraid of lv 5 spells. Honestly what are 10d4 and +5 BAB worth to a dragon?

You can upgrade a dragon by 20 dragon HD with +10 to its CR (lets put age advancement beside for a moment). its 20d12, +20 BAB, +10 to all saves, 4 ability scores, and 6 feats. Compare that to 10d4 and measly 10 levels of wizard spellcasting.

Sorry. This thing about associated class levels dont fit. An aboleth with 10 levels of wizard can be sneaky and kill a party combining his abilities, but THINK ONE MOMENT. he is now CR 17!!!! a party lets say of lv 15 (for whom a CR 17 should be a VEERY tough encounter) has saves, gear, spells and sheer hitpoints to laugh at almost all abilities that aboleth mage has, including lv 5 spells. (even a Wis 10 1/2 orc barbarian, raging and with a +3 resistance item (that by lv 15 its standard issue i believe) or spell can make a will save for this aboleth on a 10).

My opinion: a monster that HAS already spellcasting abilities and those would be improved (dragon + sorcerer) can qualify for associated class levels. Wiz/Sor stats (HD, BAB and saves) are too puny.

Wizard/sorcerer levels when added to a monster with a CR above 6 is novelty levels. Until the said monster can cast spells of some real power (lets say (1/2 -1)of its CR in spell levels, its just waaay behind the party spellcaster. Really. Playtest 2 aboleth mages, environment to their favor, against a party of 4 lv 17 characters (take those from the DMG). You will see they dont match the criteria for a CR playtest.

Bottom line: the aboleth may rely on its psionics, it may rely on his special abilities to fight, but wizardry is just, as i said, novelty. Compare 10 levels of rogue, Fighter, ranger, or even sorcerer! As a sorcerer, it would bump its charisma, what might increase the threat of his psionics. But even sorcerer would not be associated, IMHO.
Darth Sephiroth
09-29-06, 06:33 PM Personally for the Aboleth, Sorcerer would seem to make more sense than Wizard if you don't want psionics
runestar
09-29-06, 11:30 PM I made a mistake in my earlier calculations.:embarrass Let me clarify...

So far, according to dragons of faerun,
Rogue and druid and are non-associated class lvs. But this is still slightly debatable, since the same dragon has 2 different crs in separate parts of the book.:(
Wiz, sorc and paladin are associated.

If I had the crs for adult/mature adult shadow dragons, I can infer whether rangers and fighters are associated or not.:)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mindwin 09-27-06, 06:19 PM	The aboleth entry in the MM 1, page 9 shows that wizard are associated class levels for the aboleth race. WHY????? Could anyone enlighten me: Why are Wizard Levels Associated Class Levels for Aboleths? I tried customer support, but they just said: Customer (Denis Camargo) 09/26/2006 09:49 AM <original Message> The aboleth is a 8hd aberration. It has no wizard levels or wizard spell-like. Only psionics. CR 7 The aboleth 10th lv mage has CR 17 listed. Why are wizard levels "associated class levels" for the aboleth? according to the rules in the same book, the first 8 levels of wizard should net the aboleth only 4 CR, reducing it to a CR 13 creature. So heres my question: Why are wizard levels "associated class levels" for the aboleth? Subject Aboleth Mage (mm1, pg 9) and Associated Class Levels. Discussion Thread Response (<name deleted on purpose>) 09/26/2006 10:05 AM Hello Denis, Unfortunately we cannot help you with the "whys" behind the rules. The Wizard levels are indeed associated class levels and will raise the Aboleth's CR on a one for one basis! Good Luck and Game On! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. (<name deleted on purpose>) Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast <contact information, deleted> .
Dunamin 09-28-06, 05:28 AM	So much for customer support... While it is a capable melee combatant, the aboleth is mostly about it's spell-like abilites (its "psionics"). As many spells can compliment these, a wizard is considered an associated class. An aboleth can mask its precense and make its environment seem very different quite effectively via its illusory capabilities. With proper spells, it can damage, capture or otherwise harass a group of enemies, without making its precense known, by hiding in illusory environment and/or among illusory allies. If you are playing with psionics in your game, feel free to change the aboleth's abilities to psionic powers and its favored class to a psion, if that is more to your taste. Hope any of that was helpful!
runestar 09-28-06, 06:01 AM	I guess there is no why here - each individual has his own views on just what constitutes an associated class, so I would say just use your own good judgement. For example, I was surprised to find that while druids are apparently a non-associated class for dragons, wiz is considered an associated class for them. Likewise, sorc is an associated class for mindflayer in the MM but is nonassociated in lords of madness. Different designers have different criteria on this, I guess.:P
PhaedrusXY 09-28-06, 06:07 AM	I was dissapointed that they didn't just give the aboleth effective psion levels in the XPH (as with the Unbodied, and Illithid), instead of giving it Psi-like abilities.
Dunamin 09-28-06, 09:03 AM	For example, I was surprised to find that while druids are apparently a non-associated class for dragons, wiz is considered an associated class for them. Likewise, sorc is an associated class for mindflayer in the MM but is nonassociated in lords of madness. Wizards / sorcerers for dragons and mind flayers is probably more a matter of flavor. Dragons are often seen as symbols of arcane might, even though they generally are more capable and dangerous in melee and with breath weapons. Mind Flayers are masters of psionics, but as psionics rules are not part of core material, sorcerers are the next best thing in terms of flavor (both sorcerers and psionic classes play on the whole "inner power" thing). Didn't know druids were a non-associated class for dragons, where did you find this information?
CzarGarrett 09-28-06, 09:18 AM	If using the magic/psionics transparency, Wizard = Psion. I don't see the problem here.
runestar 09-28-06, 10:17 AM	Didn't know druids were a non-associated class for dragons, where did you find this information? From dragons of faerun. It has tons of stats of various dragons, some with an assortment of class lvs, so you can infer what classes are treated as associated and which are not.:) For example, Daurgothoth, a great wyrm black dragon dracolich wiz20/archmage5 is a staggering cr50.:eek: There is an old gold dragon with 11 lvs of druid(cr26, implying the druid lvs are non-associated). Wiz, sorc and rogue lvs appear to be associated as well. Eric Bloyd clarified that wiz lvs are associated for dragons, though he did not elaborate on the rationale behind it.
Mindwin 09-29-06, 06:22 PM	From dragons of faerun. It has tons of stats of various dragons, some with an assortment of class lvs, so you can infer what classes are treated as associated and which are not.:) For example, Daurgothoth, a great wyrm black dragon dracolich wiz20/archmage5 is a staggering cr50.:eek: There is an old gold dragon with 11 lvs of druid(cr26, implying the druid lvs are non-associated). Wiz, sorc and rogue lvs appear to be associated as well. Eric Bloyd clarified that wiz lvs are associated for dragons, though he did not elaborate on the rationale behind it. Sorcerer for Dragons is associated, no shade of doubt. Stacking spellcasting, odd spellcasting levels (and sorcerer gain spell levels in even levels). Rogue? Of course. Think of a dragon, with his 6+ attacks, invisible and sneak attacking. Or flanking with some summon. Rogue must be Associated Class Levels (ACL) for a creature with lots of attacks. Any +1 BAB class. Dragons are fighting machines. They are all ACL. Raging dragons? Weapon Specialization (claw)? Hide in plain sight dragon? LOLz. Put monk here too. WIS to AC?? ROFL. Druid/cleric? I dont know here. The two classes have good combat abilities, and if a dragon gets to some of those Draconomicon (sorcerer becomes cleric levels) prestiges, oh my. I think they are good enough classes to be associated for everyone. Wizard... More on dragon wizards below. IMHO its fubar. Lets say a dragon with 9 levels of sorcerer spellcasting. And a CR of 14. He adds 10 levels of wizard. CR pops by 10. Now he can cast almost double the amount of lv 5 spells. As if the characters able to face a CR 24 challenge would be afraid of lv 5 spells. Honestly what are 10d4 and +5 BAB worth to a dragon? You can upgrade a dragon by 20 dragon HD with +10 to its CR (lets put age advancement beside for a moment). its 20d12, +20 BAB, +10 to all saves, 4 ability scores, and 6 feats. Compare that to 10d4 and measly 10 levels of wizard spellcasting. Sorry. This thing about associated class levels dont fit. An aboleth with 10 levels of wizard can be sneaky and kill a party combining his abilities, but THINK ONE MOMENT. he is now CR 17!!!! a party lets say of lv 15 (for whom a CR 17 should be a VEERY tough encounter) has saves, gear, spells and sheer hitpoints to laugh at almost all abilities that aboleth mage has, including lv 5 spells. (even a Wis 10 1/2 orc barbarian, raging and with a +3 resistance item (that by lv 15 its standard issue i believe) or spell can make a will save for this aboleth on a 10). My opinion: a monster that HAS already spellcasting abilities and those would be improved (dragon + sorcerer) can qualify for associated class levels. Wiz/Sor stats (HD, BAB and saves) are too puny. Wizard/sorcerer levels when added to a monster with a CR above 6 is novelty levels. Until the said monster can cast spells of some real power (lets say (1/2 -1)of its CR in spell levels, its just waaay behind the party spellcaster. Really. Playtest 2 aboleth mages, environment to their favor, against a party of 4 lv 17 characters (take those from the DMG). You will see they dont match the criteria for a CR playtest. Bottom line: the aboleth may rely on its psionics, it may rely on his special abilities to fight, but wizardry is just, as i said, novelty. Compare 10 levels of rogue, Fighter, ranger, or even sorcerer! As a sorcerer, it would bump its charisma, what might increase the threat of his psionics. But even sorcerer would not be associated, IMHO.
Darth Sephiroth 09-29-06, 06:33 PM	Personally for the Aboleth, Sorcerer would seem to make more sense than Wizard if you don't want psionics
runestar 09-29-06, 11:30 PM	I made a mistake in my earlier calculations.:embarrass Let me clarify... So far, according to dragons of faerun, Rogue and druid and are non-associated class lvs. But this is still slightly debatable, since the same dragon has 2 different crs in separate parts of the book.:( Wiz, sorc and paladin are associated. If I had the crs for adult/mature adult shadow dragons, I can infer whether rangers and fighters are associated or not.:)