About Para Elementals [Archive] - Wizards Community

About Para Elementals [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Neely
09-12-06, 05:43 AM Hiya ^^

How many para elementals are there? When browsing through the Manual of the Planes I only found four: Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke.
Now are those the only official para elementals? Because that would leave open three more combinations: Fire + Water ; Earth + Air ; Water + Air
If you had to fill in those three last combinations what would you take?

Second, I'm not sure whether this has been discussed before or whether such is possible or not. But what could be the result of tripple-element-combinations?

And ultimatly, could a four-element combination be possible? Would that just give 'matter'?
Slagger the Chuul
09-12-06, 08:35 AM Now are those the only official para elementals? Because that would leave open three more combinations: Fire + Water ; Earth + Air ; Water + Air
If you had to fill in those three last combinations what would you take?

Steam, dust, and fog.

And ultimatly, could a four-element combination be possible? Would that just give 'matter'?

There's a creature called an omnimental, which is a mixture of all four elements.
dok
09-12-06, 09:37 AM Hiya ^^

How many para elementals are there? When browsing through the Manual of the Planes I only found four: Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke.
Now are those the only official para elementals? Because that would leave open three more combinations: Fire + Water ; Earth + Air ; Water + Air
If you had to fill in those three last combinations what would you take?

Actually, the ParaElementals occur where two elemental planes meet. The elemental planes are laid out in a diamond shape, with opposing planes not touching. Thus, there is no point where the Elemental Planes of Fire & Water touch, nor is there a point where the planes of Air & Earth touch.

This layout gives four Paraelemental planes: Ice (Air & Water), Oooze (Water & Earth), Magma (Earth & Fire) and Smoke (Fire & Air)

Now, if you want more options, you can include Quasielementals. Remember that diamond-shape (or actually, more like "ring-shape") layout of the Elemental Planes? Now add in the Postive & Negative Elemental Planes above & below. Now, wherever an Elemental Plane touches an Energy Plane, you have a Quasielemental Plane, with a total of four for each energy plane, or eight in total. The Quasielemental planes are:

Positive: Lightning (Air & Positive), Steam (Water & Postive), Crystaline (Earth & Positive), and Radiance (Fire & Positive)
Negative: Vacuum/Void (Air & Negative), Brine/Salt (Water & Negative), Dust (Earth & Negative), and Ash. (Fire & Negative)

Now, you could checkout Planeswalker.org to see how many quasielementals have been statted up. I'm sure about the Lightning Quasielemental, but not about any of the others.
RavinRay
09-12-06, 08:41 PM Neely raised a point of comparison though, in that there are mephit varieties (which are themselves elemental in nature) beyond the 8 elemental and para-elemental combinations, namely the dust and steam mephits. Although they respectively have the air and fire subtypes, one could argue for a combination air & earth subtype for the dust mephit and a fire & water subtype for the steam mephit, and from there create dust and steam para-elementals. These obviously conflict with the quasi-elementals of the same names. But it is telling that in the 3e cosmology, pockets of boiling water in the Elemental Plane of Water may lead to vortices to the Elemental Plane of Fire.
420
09-12-06, 09:56 PM There's a creature called an omnimental, which is a mixture of all four elements.
Omnimental is in Monster Manual III (pg. 118)

Tempest is another Monster Manual II (pg. 193)

Unraveler (aka Menglis) from Planar Handbook (pg 130) is an outsider that is composed of all 4 elements and lives on the borders of the Inner Planes.

-420
Neely
09-13-06, 01:47 PM Doc, thank you for pointing out the planar structure. It's good to know how the para elementals came in existence.

However, RavinRay follows me more in my thinking. I was thinking about Mephits being elementals and they have Dust, Steam and Salt. I did also realise when I looked at them in the MM that those three are not two elements combined. So they are not like para elementals.

I didn't define it in my question, but I'd like also to keep in mind that maybe you can "create/build/construct" para elementals beside those that already exist by natural cause. (Talking in game now, not as DM)
Through magical process maybe you could combine two elemental types to create an artificial para-elemental? So if that is possible is it possible to have para-elementals for the three other combination? Or are those opposites more likely to cancel eachother out instead of being combinable?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
09-13-06, 02:28 PM Neely raised a point of comparison though, in that there are mephit varieties (which are themselves elemental in nature) beyond the 8 elemental and para-elemental combinations, namely the dust and steam mephits.
Those are the quasi-elemental mephits.
420
09-13-06, 04:15 PM Neely raised a point of comparison though, in that there are mephit varieties (which are themselves elemental in nature) beyond the 8 elemental and para-elemental combinations, namely the dust and steam mephits.
Actually, mephits are outsiders, so you can't really compare them to elementals in that way.

Discussed at length in this thread: Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"? (http://community.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690179)

-420
RavinRay
09-13-06, 05:12 PM Actually, mephits are outsiders, so you can't really compare them to elementals in that way.
True, any analogy is by definition imperfect. The mephits merely show the possibilities for what you could do with the paraelementals. And yes, I've read that thread (along with Shemmy's suggestion for defining genies and mephits as a separate type from Outer Plane outsiders, insiders perhaps.)

If you have an alternate cosmology with just the four Elemental Planes arranged like a d4 tetrahedron, then where they touch at the edges you would have paraelementals, and as each element borders the other three, dust and steam could have a place there (but going into detail would be more appropriate to the Deities and the Planes forum).
420
09-13-06, 05:57 PM Hee hee, insiders rule!

Don't forget para- and quasielementals from a cosmology with the Elemental Plane of Wood! (Manual of the Planes pg. 207)

Wood Paraelemenatals
Air - Paper Elemental
Earth - Root Elemental
Fire - Charcoal Elemental
Water - Mulch Elemental

Wood Quasielementals
Positive - Fruit Elemental
Negative - Rot/Blight Elemental

Now selling tee-shirts that say: "I got wood in the Inner Planes!"

-420
Shemeska the Marauder
09-13-06, 08:19 PM True, any analogy is by definition imperfect. The mephits merely show the possibilities for what you could do with the paraelementals. And yes, I've read that thread (along with Shemmy's suggestion for defining genies and mephits as a separate type from Outer Plane outsiders, insiders perhaps.)

The mephits tend to embody a lot of very niche subsets of the elements. So in Quasielemental Steam you have steam mephits as well as mist mephits, both of which squabble with one another.

Being almost living ideological tangents to the elements rather than being 'of' the elements themselves, you can have tons of variety with the mephits, and I've had so much fun with them, especially with the various (often annoying) personality traits they tend to have.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-13-06, 08:20 PM Everything Dok said was absolutely spot on. :)

Positive: Lightning (Air & Positive), Steam (Water & Postive), Crystaline (Earth & Positive), and Radiance (Fire & Positive)
Negative: Vacuum/Void (Air & Negative), Brine/Salt (Water & Negative), Dust (Earth & Negative), and Ash. (Fire & Negative)

Just one change, make Crystaline = Mineral.
RavinRay
09-13-06, 08:26 PM Hey there Shemmy! Not too often we're online at the same time and posting to the same thread.

Anyway, I have to disclose that the air + earth = dust and fire + water = steam is not my original idea. I first read about it at "Li Po's guide to the Inner Planes" (http://www.pathguy.com/inner.htm)
Yaeri
09-14-06, 04:21 AM Hehe, I had wondered about the exact same things when I read about the paraelementals in the manual of the planes. And I've come to the forums with a similar question a long time ago. That's funny because Neely and I are both in the same group. :D

Anyway, on to the subject. All the paraelementals and quasi-elementals have been mentioned. So that leaves the question of those from opposed elements (who don't officially exist). But perhaps to better picture how much sense it would make for opposing elements to combine is to think of positive and negative energy combined. I think naturally, they would definitely cancel each other out, as you suggested.

But indeed, like you said, magical rituals may somehow force the elements together. What I think would be the result, is something chaotic, something that's constantly anihilating itself, something that's never in balance. When any two opposed elements combine to be one elemental creature, I imagine those elements to be roiling and boiling through each other all the time. Those elements in constant conflict, and perhaps the creature in constant pain, grown mad.

As for the name of the creature... I think the planescape people may be able to come up with something suitable. The best thing I can think of right now is a cheesy "chaos elemental".
Neely
09-14-06, 04:56 AM *waves to Yaeri* ^^
Chaos elemental eh? That was my first idea, I ditched it for it's supernatural cheesyness, hehe.
Again we think alike my friend.

While I can easily imagine how Water cancels Fire, I have more difficulty to imagine Air canceling Earth.
This is all just fantasy stuff and not real physics, so I could accept the idea that through means of magic opposing elements are combinable and even without the "mad elemental" idea (though it could make interesting flavour).
Even with the paraelementals, they are not a literaly combination of the two, more like a result or effect. Smoke has neither fire nor air in it. Smoke is actually burned matter floating in air...

RavinRay, thanks for the link.

Since no one has touch my question of triple elemental yet, I'll make a start by writing down some ideas:

Earth + Water + Fire = Tar
Earth + Air + Fire = Ash
Earth + Water + Air = Flesh
Water + Air + Fire = Gas
Yaeri
09-14-06, 05:17 AM But negative energy and fire already gives ash! :D (Makes me think of that futurama episode where they have to come up with a name for their product. Something like: "These are the only two names that aren't patented yet: Fizzwissle and Shplunk."

For the flavour of triple elementals: Where two opposed elements are normally uncombinable, a third element in between the two, can function as a the "glue" of the creature, binding the other two elements together.
I don't have any ideas yet for such creatures, but an interesting path to consider, may also be the paraelementals. Fire+air+water, may come forth from -or be likewise to- smoke+ice (the respective paraelemental combinations in fire+air and water+air). A black vapor with pale blue eyes and ice shards inside? Perhaps a substance like snow where a lot of cars have driven through, drips from it?
Fire+earth+water = magma+ooze? An ooze elemental with the texture of a magma elemental? :D
Air+Water+earth = ice+ooze? A frozen pudding-like creature?
earth+Fire+air = magma+smoke? Just a mix of the two.
Neely
09-14-06, 02:23 PM Yaeri:
"Fire+earth+water = magma+ooze? An ooze elemental with the texture of a magma elemental?
Air+Water+earth = ice+ooze? A frozen pudding-like creature?
earth+Fire+air = magma+smoke? Just a mix of the two."

Frozen pudding... seems like an elemental none would ever take serious lol :p
However, if you stiffen ooze with ice, you might get a gelatious cube... hehe.

Well magma+ooze did give me the Tar idea, it's sticky and boiling...
ZeronHitaro
09-14-06, 04:09 PM Just my 2cp, a name for an elemental forged from a forced meeting of the planes of fire and water could quite possibly fit with the name given to the attack in the old SNES game Chrono Trigger when you cast a spell that combined fire and ice magic:

Antipod Elemental

For some reason I always pronouce with as (anti-pode) as opposed to (anti-pod).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neely 09-12-06, 05:43 AM	Hiya ^^ How many para elementals are there? When browsing through the Manual of the Planes I only found four: Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke. Now are those the only official para elementals? Because that would leave open three more combinations: Fire + Water ; Earth + Air ; Water + Air If you had to fill in those three last combinations what would you take? Second, I'm not sure whether this has been discussed before or whether such is possible or not. But what could be the result of tripple-element-combinations? And ultimatly, could a four-element combination be possible? Would that just give 'matter'?
Slagger the Chuul 09-12-06, 08:35 AM	Now are those the only official para elementals? Because that would leave open three more combinations: Fire + Water ; Earth + Air ; Water + Air If you had to fill in those three last combinations what would you take? Steam, dust, and fog. And ultimatly, could a four-element combination be possible? Would that just give 'matter'? There's a creature called an omnimental, which is a mixture of all four elements.
dok 09-12-06, 09:37 AM	Hiya ^^ How many para elementals are there? When browsing through the Manual of the Planes I only found four: Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke. Now are those the only official para elementals? Because that would leave open three more combinations: Fire + Water ; Earth + Air ; Water + Air If you had to fill in those three last combinations what would you take? Actually, the ParaElementals occur where two elemental planes meet. The elemental planes are laid out in a diamond shape, with opposing planes not touching. Thus, there is no point where the Elemental Planes of Fire & Water touch, nor is there a point where the planes of Air & Earth touch. This layout gives four Paraelemental planes: Ice (Air & Water), Oooze (Water & Earth), Magma (Earth & Fire) and Smoke (Fire & Air) Now, if you want more options, you can include Quasielementals. Remember that diamond-shape (or actually, more like "ring-shape") layout of the Elemental Planes? Now add in the Postive & Negative Elemental Planes above & below. Now, wherever an Elemental Plane touches an Energy Plane, you have a Quasielemental Plane, with a total of four for each energy plane, or eight in total. The Quasielemental planes are: Positive: Lightning (Air & Positive), Steam (Water & Postive), Crystaline (Earth & Positive), and Radiance (Fire & Positive) Negative: Vacuum/Void (Air & Negative), Brine/Salt (Water & Negative), Dust (Earth & Negative), and Ash. (Fire & Negative) Now, you could checkout Planeswalker.org to see how many quasielementals have been statted up. I'm sure about the Lightning Quasielemental, but not about any of the others.
RavinRay 09-12-06, 08:41 PM	Neely raised a point of comparison though, in that there are mephit varieties (which are themselves elemental in nature) beyond the 8 elemental and para-elemental combinations, namely the dust and steam mephits. Although they respectively have the air and fire subtypes, one could argue for a combination air & earth subtype for the dust mephit and a fire & water subtype for the steam mephit, and from there create dust and steam para-elementals. These obviously conflict with the quasi-elementals of the same names. But it is telling that in the 3e cosmology, pockets of boiling water in the Elemental Plane of Water may lead to vortices to the Elemental Plane of Fire.
420 09-12-06, 09:56 PM	There's a creature called an omnimental, which is a mixture of all four elements. Omnimental is in Monster Manual III (pg. 118) Tempest is another Monster Manual II (pg. 193) Unraveler (aka Menglis) from Planar Handbook (pg 130) is an outsider that is composed of all 4 elements and lives on the borders of the Inner Planes. -420
Neely 09-13-06, 01:47 PM	Doc, thank you for pointing out the planar structure. It's good to know how the para elementals came in existence. However, RavinRay follows me more in my thinking. I was thinking about Mephits being elementals and they have Dust, Steam and Salt. I did also realise when I looked at them in the MM that those three are not two elements combined. So they are not like para elementals. I didn't define it in my question, but I'd like also to keep in mind that maybe you can "create/build/construct" para elementals beside those that already exist by natural cause. (Talking in game now, not as DM) Through magical process maybe you could combine two elemental types to create an artificial para-elemental? So if that is possible is it possible to have para-elementals for the three other combination? Or are those opposites more likely to cancel eachother out instead of being combinable?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-13-06, 02:28 PM	Neely raised a point of comparison though, in that there are mephit varieties (which are themselves elemental in nature) beyond the 8 elemental and para-elemental combinations, namely the dust and steam mephits. Those are the quasi-elemental mephits.
420 09-13-06, 04:15 PM	Neely raised a point of comparison though, in that there are mephit varieties (which are themselves elemental in nature) beyond the 8 elemental and para-elemental combinations, namely the dust and steam mephits. Actually, mephits are outsiders, so you can't really compare them to elementals in that way. Discussed at length in this thread: Why aren't genies and mephits type "elemental"? (http://community.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690179) -420
RavinRay 09-13-06, 05:12 PM	Actually, mephits are outsiders, so you can't really compare them to elementals in that way. True, any analogy is by definition imperfect. The mephits merely show the possibilities for what you could do with the paraelementals. And yes, I've read that thread (along with Shemmy's suggestion for defining genies and mephits as a separate type from Outer Plane outsiders, insiders perhaps.) If you have an alternate cosmology with just the four Elemental Planes arranged like a d4 tetrahedron, then where they touch at the edges you would have paraelementals, and as each element borders the other three, dust and steam could have a place there (but going into detail would be more appropriate to the Deities and the Planes forum).
420 09-13-06, 05:57 PM	Hee hee, insiders rule! Don't forget para- and quasielementals from a cosmology with the Elemental Plane of Wood! (Manual of the Planes pg. 207) Wood Paraelemenatals Air - Paper Elemental Earth - Root Elemental Fire - Charcoal Elemental Water - Mulch Elemental Wood Quasielementals Positive - Fruit Elemental Negative - Rot/Blight Elemental Now selling tee-shirts that say: "I got wood in the Inner Planes!" -420
Shemeska the Marauder 09-13-06, 08:19 PM	True, any analogy is by definition imperfect. The mephits merely show the possibilities for what you could do with the paraelementals. And yes, I've read that thread (along with Shemmy's suggestion for defining genies and mephits as a separate type from Outer Plane outsiders, insiders perhaps.) The mephits tend to embody a lot of very niche subsets of the elements. So in Quasielemental Steam you have steam mephits as well as mist mephits, both of which squabble with one another. Being almost living ideological tangents to the elements rather than being 'of' the elements themselves, you can have tons of variety with the mephits, and I've had so much fun with them, especially with the various (often annoying) personality traits they tend to have.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-13-06, 08:20 PM	Everything Dok said was absolutely spot on. :) Positive: Lightning (Air & Positive), Steam (Water & Postive), Crystaline (Earth & Positive), and Radiance (Fire & Positive) Negative: Vacuum/Void (Air & Negative), Brine/Salt (Water & Negative), Dust (Earth & Negative), and Ash. (Fire & Negative) Just one change, make Crystaline = Mineral.
RavinRay 09-13-06, 08:26 PM	Hey there Shemmy! Not too often we're online at the same time and posting to the same thread. Anyway, I have to disclose that the air + earth = dust and fire + water = steam is not my original idea. I first read about it at "Li Po's guide to the Inner Planes" (http://www.pathguy.com/inner.htm)
Yaeri 09-14-06, 04:21 AM	Hehe, I had wondered about the exact same things when I read about the paraelementals in the manual of the planes. And I've come to the forums with a similar question a long time ago. That's funny because Neely and I are both in the same group. :D Anyway, on to the subject. All the paraelementals and quasi-elementals have been mentioned. So that leaves the question of those from opposed elements (who don't officially exist). But perhaps to better picture how much sense it would make for opposing elements to combine is to think of positive and negative energy combined. I think naturally, they would definitely cancel each other out, as you suggested. But indeed, like you said, magical rituals may somehow force the elements together. What I think would be the result, is something chaotic, something that's constantly anihilating itself, something that's never in balance. When any two opposed elements combine to be one elemental creature, I imagine those elements to be roiling and boiling through each other all the time. Those elements in constant conflict, and perhaps the creature in constant pain, grown mad. As for the name of the creature... I think the planescape people may be able to come up with something suitable. The best thing I can think of right now is a cheesy "chaos elemental".
Neely 09-14-06, 04:56 AM	waves to Yaeri ^^ Chaos elemental eh? That was my first idea, I ditched it for it's supernatural cheesyness, hehe. Again we think alike my friend. While I can easily imagine how Water cancels Fire, I have more difficulty to imagine Air canceling Earth. This is all just fantasy stuff and not real physics, so I could accept the idea that through means of magic opposing elements are combinable and even without the "mad elemental" idea (though it could make interesting flavour). Even with the paraelementals, they are not a literaly combination of the two, more like a result or effect. Smoke has neither fire nor air in it. Smoke is actually burned matter floating in air... RavinRay, thanks for the link. Since no one has touch my question of triple elemental yet, I'll make a start by writing down some ideas: Earth + Water + Fire = Tar Earth + Air + Fire = Ash Earth + Water + Air = Flesh Water + Air + Fire = Gas
Yaeri 09-14-06, 05:17 AM	But negative energy and fire already gives ash! :D (Makes me think of that futurama episode where they have to come up with a name for their product. Something like: "These are the only two names that aren't patented yet: Fizzwissle and Shplunk." For the flavour of triple elementals: Where two opposed elements are normally uncombinable, a third element in between the two, can function as a the "glue" of the creature, binding the other two elements together. I don't have any ideas yet for such creatures, but an interesting path to consider, may also be the paraelementals. Fire+air+water, may come forth from -or be likewise to- smoke+ice (the respective paraelemental combinations in fire+air and water+air). A black vapor with pale blue eyes and ice shards inside? Perhaps a substance like snow where a lot of cars have driven through, drips from it? Fire+earth+water = magma+ooze? An ooze elemental with the texture of a magma elemental? :D Air+Water+earth = ice+ooze? A frozen pudding-like creature? earth+Fire+air = magma+smoke? Just a mix of the two.
Neely 09-14-06, 02:23 PM	Yaeri: "Fire+earth+water = magma+ooze? An ooze elemental with the texture of a magma elemental? Air+Water+earth = ice+ooze? A frozen pudding-like creature? earth+Fire+air = magma+smoke? Just a mix of the two." Frozen pudding... seems like an elemental none would ever take serious lol :p However, if you stiffen ooze with ice, you might get a gelatious cube... hehe. Well magma+ooze did give me the Tar idea, it's sticky and boiling...
ZeronHitaro 09-14-06, 04:09 PM	Just my 2cp, a name for an elemental forged from a forced meeting of the planes of fire and water could quite possibly fit with the name given to the attack in the old SNES game Chrono Trigger when you cast a spell that combined fire and ice magic: Antipod Elemental For some reason I always pronouce with as (anti-pode) as opposed to (anti-pod).