Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Atreus 06-10-04, 11:59 AM	A Solar's Sword is a Dancing Vorpal +5. It is not an artifact? If you defeat a Solar and take his/her sword, it is not a imbalance (hole) in the game? According to the Epic Levels Handbook this weapon costs 14 x 14 x 2 x 10000 = 3920000 gp!!! And how it works a Dancing Sword? According to the DMG, the sword attacks with your complete base attack bonus, so... can you move, then use a standard action to activate the Dancing Sword, and then it makes multiple attacks, or not? (I'm not sure about this)
Sarig the Genie 06-10-04, 01:33 PM	Unbalancing? Considering Solars are direct servants of gods, I'd say you'd need it, if you kill one and steal his/her sword. Someone's not going to be happy (;
Elven Warlord 06-10-04, 01:53 PM	If you kill one Solar your good (not alignment :)). But I'd like to see the look on your face when 200 Solars materalize out of the Heavens and hurt you ... badly :smirk:
incarnadine 06-10-04, 02:30 PM	Originally posted by Atreus And how it works a Dancing Sword? According to the DMG, the sword attacks with your complete base attack bonus, so... can you move, then use a standard action to activate the Dancing Sword, and then it makes multiple attacks, or not? (I'm not sure about this) well your base attack bonus (that means none of your moddifiers, just your BAB) and according to the DMG the sword moves with you at all times. Loosing the weapon is a Standard action, and after that it attacks using your BAB (so a level 10 fighter would make the following attack: +15/+10 (gaining a +5 from the weapon moddifier) You can't use AoOs though.
Atreus 06-11-04, 03:03 AM	Unbalancing? Considering Solars are direct servants of gods, I'd say you'd need it, if you kill one and steal his/her sword. Someone's not going to be happy (; If you kill one Solar your good (not alignment ). But I'd like to see the look on your face when 200 Solars materalize out of the Heavens and hurt you ... badly This is the same that saying if you kill a devil then a lot of devils came to kill you, or if you kill a demon then a lot of demons came to kill you, etc... In this case, you couldn't hurt any monster in D&D, because you fear of the consequences. In addition, for an epic sufficiently powerful character, a Solar might not be a difficult challenge, but on the other hand the remuneration of killing it is enormous. This is the same that saying if you kill a Goblin because he possesses an Axe +5, then a lot of Goblins came to kill you. "What good! The treasures come to me by themselves!" :D What I say is that this sword is too expensive for a monster of this CR (it without telling his bow makes Killer (or Assasin, I don't know how it is said in English) Arrows of all the types). I noticed that in case of the Balors, his weapons are destroyed when the Balor exploits, so that balances his tresure (until you snatch them before he exploits), but in case of Solars, it seems that they forgot to do a counter measure of this type.
Sarig the Genie 06-11-04, 07:20 AM	(all in my humble opinion of course) Erm, not excactly the same as killing fiends no. Solars are Aasimon, beings created by good deities to serve them. Solars are the highest of the Aasimon, hence rather close to a deity. So if you do kill one, some divine being might not be too happy, and they always have a lot of friends. I can of course not tell you how it should be in your campaign (as it's yours obviously) but if this happened in mine, some unlucky characters would have to start doing some effort in avoiding proxies. While if you kill, say, a pit fiend, someone in Baator will just say "Ha! Now I can take that position! Good to be rid of him!"
Naeron 06-11-04, 08:46 AM	In 3.5 it is just a +5 Dancing Sword rather then being Vorpal as well. And their bow is just a +2 Composite Longbow (+5 strength) which means that the slaying arrow is a factor of the Solar not the bow. The simplest houserule is to treat the sword in a similar way to that of the Balor. The sword has that power due to the nature of its wielder (which is how I interpret the Balor's (su) ability). So any sword a Solar wields becomes a +5 Dancing sword. If the solar drops the weapon it looses its abilities. A lesser houserule would be that the magic items are keyed to the Solar by alignment, race and deity (or even by name). That would make them worth much much less in monetary terms.
DungeonMaster 06-11-04, 09:14 AM	Originally posted by Atreus I noticed that in case of the Balors, his weapons are destroyed when the Balor exploits, so that balances his tresure (until you snatch them before he exploits), but in case of Solars, it seems that they forgot to do a counter measure of this type. The weapons are listed in the treasure section of the Balor. They do not dissapear.
Atreus 06-11-04, 10:07 AM	Solars are Aasimon, beings created by good deities to serve them. I do not deny that it is true, but I have not found any information in the matter that says it. Solars are the highest of the Aasimon, hence rather close to a deity. There are devils and demons more powerful than Solars in the Fiend Folio and Epic Level Handbook, for example. So if you do kill one, some divine being might not be too happy, and they always have a lot of friends. I do not believe that does not matter to Asmodeo knowing that someone is finishing with his servants, but anyhow, according to "Defenders of the Faith", devils and demons collaborate more with evil gods that Solars and Arcontes with the good gods, so if you say that a god would bother for a dead Solar, why were not evil gods going to do same? While if you kill, say, a pit fiend, someone in Baator will just say "Ha! Now I can take that position! Good to be rid of him!" Though evil, the devils and demons are not stupid. If there is someone sufficiently powerful to kill a great demon, then they will do something in the matter. Anyhow, it would not be very correct for the DM to resort to the threat of " the friends of the opponent ", to prevent the PCs from taking a very valuable object. But as already I say, for an epic suitable personage, Solars should not be a problem. In 3.5 it is just a +5 Dancing Sword rather then being Vorpal as well I assure you that the Manual of Monsters 3.5 says that it is a Dancing Vorpal Sword +5 (at least in the Spanish version, it might be a misprint, but that would surprise me). The simplest houserule is to treat the sword in a similar way to that of the Balor. The sword has that power due to the nature of its wielder (which is how I interpret the Balor's (su) ability). So any sword a Solar wields becomes a +5 Dancing sword. If the solar drops the weapon it looses its abilities. Certainly that if I was DMing would do a change in order that it was not like that. Only I say that it looks like to me a detail that might break the game if the DM does not do anything in the matter. The weapons are listed in the treasure section of the Balor. They do not dissapear. In the Monster Manual 3.5 says specifically, according to his supernatural ability of exploiting, that his weapons are destroyed when the Balor exploits, but only if he is handling them in the moment of his death.
Cunning Linguist 06-11-04, 10:34 AM	I assure you that the Manual of Monsters 3.5 says that it is a Dancing Vorpal Sword +5 (at least in the Spanish version, it might be a misprint, but that would surprise me). Yea, it's a missprint. It's only a +5 dancing sword now.
incarnadine 06-11-04, 11:46 AM	Solar retrobution VS Pit Fiend retrobution : LG aligned organizations have a loving and devoted relationship with it's members. The knowledge of a divine weapon falling in to the hands of an evil entity (let alone the murder of one of the highest ranking members of the organization) will result in righteous retribution. LE organizations rely on each other for safety but often resort to assassinations and backstabbing when it comes to going up the ladder of power. Such members will not be likely to avenge the death of a comrade, and would only attack the party in question in hopes of taking the artifacts that were looted from the dead member. On the sword... well it's not so great. I mean you do get a -6 penalty(size) to using it unless it's dancing, and it can only dance for 4 rounds. And yes it is only dancing.
Atreus 06-14-04, 10:01 AM	I do not think Solars (LG) want to "avenge" the death of a comrade, they are goods! Althought perhaps it is true that they want to recover his sword. An example from what I say comes in Dungeon Master Guide 3.5., where it says that in Celestia you can defy to an Angel in non-death combat, but if you kill him, the worst thing can happen to you is that they expel you from the plane. I suppose they think if you defeat a Solar then you have right to keep with his booty, but this is only my opinion. Anyway, we are separating of the principal topic. If it's a missprint and the sword is only a +5 dancing one, then everything is solved: there is no imbalance in the equipment of the Solar (except perhaps for that bow that makes slayer arrows, but this is another matter). Thank you for solve my problem!:) ;)
Atreus 06-14-04, 10:05 AM	I forget it: Thank you, too, for the explanation of using Dancing weapons!:) :) :)
Arakano 06-14-04, 10:29 AM	Originally posted by incarnadine Solar retrobution VS Pit Fiend retrobution : LG aligned organizations have a loving and devoted relationship with it's members. The knowledge of a divine weapon falling in to the hands of an evil entity (let alone the murder of one of the highest ranking members of the organization) will result in righteous retribution. LE organizations rely on each other for safety but often resort to assassinations and backstabbing when it comes to going up the ladder of power. Such members will not be likely to avenge the death of a comrade, and would only attack the party in question in hopes of taking the artifacts that were looted from the dead member. Well, the LE might not feel as much grief as LG beings. BUT: Killing a mighty devil as a mortal being is a sign of lacking respect. No Baatorian can allow someone to get away with it... :smirk: And if the devil you killed happens to have a personal relationship to one of the Nine... ask Levisticus how well people like Asmodeus get along with loosing their "beloved"... For me, I would rather be hunted by 100 Solars than by 1 Pit Fiend. Because, you know, if they get you... devils tend do be nastier with their punishments.
NightScreamer20 06-14-04, 10:32 AM	Ya another misprint (i believe) the Balor's weapons, since it states that they do get esploded when he does.
incarnadine 06-14-04, 11:06 AM	Originally posted by Arakano Well, the LE might not feel as much grief as LG beings. BUT: Killing a mighty devil as a mortal being is a sign of lacking respect. No Baatorian can allow someone to get away with it... :smirk: And if the devil you killed happens to have a personal relationship to one of the Nine... ask Levisticus how well people like Asmodeus get along with loosing their "beloved"... For me, I would rather be hunted by 100 Solars than by 1 Pit Fiend. Because, you know, if they get you... devils tend do be nastier with their punishments. Yeah except that any Pit Fiend that just lost their leader has just gotten an immediate promotion. If I was one of them I'd invite the puny mortal to diner and ask him to kill my boss while he's at it. Remember that there is no honor amongst evil.
Sarig the Genie 06-14-04, 11:42 AM	While I'd love to participate more here, I'm at the moment away form my books ): So I'm just pointing out that Solars come in all good alignements, and that evil can very well have honor.
Sarig the Genie 06-14-04, 11:42 AM	While I'd love to participate more here, I'm at the moment away from my books ): So I'm just pointing out that Solars come in all good alignements, and that evil can very well have honor.
Freefall 06-14-04, 12:02 PM	I was just about to say the same thing. Solars can be neutral good and chaotic good as well. While killing a Pit Fiend may open up his position to a lesser devil, that doesn't mean that devil will thank the group that killed his predecessor. In fact, I think it is likely that he would attempt to get rid of them, since in situations like that strongly practical and ruthless people will do their best to eliminate all threats to their newly acquired power, which will often include whatever did in their predecessor (unless it was someone they already know to be very loyal to themselves, maybe).
Atreus 06-15-04, 03:20 AM	So, I have begun a discussion about good loyalties and evil ones. In fact, I like this topic. I do not believe that neither demons nor devils are grateful without reserves that someone is annihilating their superiors ones (who are more powerful than they), because that would mean they could be finished the same way. Perhaps they have not any problem with stabbing for the back other devils, but I do not believe that they like that someone foreign to the evil was doing it for them. It is as if you say that you would like to see your enemy dead to get his/her possessions, but other one comes, kills it and keeps them. Anyhow, I do not believe that it is correct to resort to the threat of there are companions and allies of one whom the PCs have killed, only to prevent them from killing it. Of the same way, then, you would be limiting the players' course of action, because these are afraid that if they irritate the DM, then this one will extract of his sleeve powerful monsters to take revenge (I say this for the topic of 200 Solares coming to avenge his companion).
Atreus 06-15-04, 03:29 AM	On the other hand ... what happen with the Solar's bow? It creates unlimited slayer arrows of all the types. Should not this be a very powerful appliance? As its description says, seems to be that this property is contributed by the bow, not by the Solar. Then... do you believe that if someone obtains Solar's bow it would be possible to benefit of its properties?
Count Arioch the 28th 06-15-04, 03:56 AM	According to the Book of Exalted Deeds, yes, you can, it's listed as a magic item in there.
Atreus 06-16-04, 06:27 AM	And what is its value in gps?
d_nychus 06-16-04, 01:08 PM	100,100 gps. Cost to create is 50,500 + 3968 xp.
Factol Rhys 06-16-04, 10:01 PM	For one thing, I don't remember balor weapons exploding, but I might be crazy. I do know that molydei (who haven't been updated for 3e yet) had dancing vorpal axes that phase out when the tanar'ri is killed. If you can kill a solar (which is pretty nigh on impossible, considering that crazy sword that we're all arguing about, power words kill and stun, death spells like destruction, as well as wish) then that's crazy enough. But if your DM allows you to slay one of the most puissant champions of good in the Upper Planes without any retribution (especially if he rules that nobody figures it out) then your campaign is already hopelessly lost down the path of dungeon crawling and you should just keep the sword, because you'll need it the next time you face a half-dragon, half-fiend, half-celestial, elemental, undead dragon.
Atreus 06-17-04, 03:35 AM	For one thing, I don't remember balor weapons exploding, but I might be crazy. Then I only can suggest you read the Monster Manual 3.5 (concretly, "Agonizing Death", Balor's supernatural ability) If you can kill a solar (which is pretty nigh on impossible, considering that crazy sword that we're all arguing about, power words kill and stun, death spells like destruction, as well as wish) then that's crazy enough. But if your DM allows you to slay one of the most puissant champions of good in the Upper Planes without any retribution (especially if he rules that nobody figures it out) then your campaign is already hopelessly lost down the path of dungeon crawling and you should just keep the sword, because you'll need it the next time you face a half-dragon, half-fiend, half-celestial, elemental, undead dragon. To what does this come? Perhaps have I said something that should have offended you? Only I have questioned something that was puzzling me, a too powerful sword for a monster like that, and you answer me that I am dreaming if I try to obtain it. This it was not the question. Anyhow, I do not see why you are not going to be able to defeat to a Solar. You say as if he was untouchable. So excuse me, but he takes statistics as any other monster of the MM, and he can die. If in your game you laugh for reaching sufficient power to defeat to a Solar, I feel it for you, but you should not criticize to others because it seems to you it is "impossible". This nothing has that to see with the topic of discussion, but for your information, I am DMing a game of epic levels (group's average level = 25), and a Solar (even to 6 or 7 of them) are eaten with potatoes by the PCs.
ruleslawyer 06-17-04, 01:10 PM	Atreus: If your English is good enough, check out the System Reference Document, which contains the same solar description found in the Monster Manual and is 100% official: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 Scroll down to "Monsters (Intro-A)" and download the .rtf file. Reading down to "Angel, Solar," you will note that the solar's sword is a +5 dancing greatsword." So, the Spanish MM 3.5 is in error. A +5 dancing greatsword is worth a grand total of 162,350 gp, which is peanuts for a 23rd-level party (the group for which a solar, as CR 23, forms an appropriate encounter). As for the bow: It is indeed a +2 composite longbow that fires any sort of slaying arrow desired, as per both the MM 3.5 and the Book of Exalted Deeds. That, according to BoED, is worth 100,100 gp; again, really not out of line for a 23rd-level party. Note that slaying arrows aren't all that great for 23rd-level encounters; a DC 20 Fortitude save is a no-brainer for anything except possibly an undead creature at these levels.
incarnadine 06-17-04, 02:07 PM	Welcome to last week.
Sarig the Genie 06-17-04, 03:33 PM	Originally posted by Factol Rhys For one thing, I don't remember balor weapons exploding, but I might be crazy. I do know that molydei (who haven't been updated for 3e yet) had dancing vorpal axes that phase out when the tanar'ri is killed. If you can kill a solar (which is pretty nigh on impossible, considering that crazy sword that we're all arguing about, power words kill and stun, death spells like destruction, as well as wish) then that's crazy enough. But if your DM allows you to slay one of the most puissant champions of good in the Upper Planes without any retribution (especially if he rules that nobody figures it out) then your campaign is already hopelessly lost down the path of dungeon crawling and you should just keep the sword, because you'll need it the next time you face a half-dragon, half-fiend, half-celestial, elemental, undead dragon. Hear! Hear!
incarnadine 06-17-04, 03:47 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/epic_med.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/catalog/product.asp?88169) there is life after level 20 :smirk:
Atreus 06-18-04, 03:04 AM	Scroll down to "Monsters (Intro-A)" and download the .rtf file. Reading down to "Angel, Solar," you will note that the solar's sword is a +5 dancing greatsword." So, the Spanish MM 3.5 is in error. A +5 dancing greatsword is worth a grand total of 162,350 gp, which is peanuts for a 23rd-level party (the group for which a solar, as CR 23, forms an appropriate encounter). Yes, Naeron and Cunning Linguist already have told me, but I thank you anyhow. As for the bow: It is indeed a +2 composite longbow that fires any sort of slaying arrow desired, as per both the MM 3.5 and the Book of Exalted Deeds. That, according to BoED, is worth 100,100 gp; again, really not out of line for a 23rd-level party. Note that slaying arrows aren't all that great for 23rd-level encounters; a DC 20 Fortitude save is a no-brainer for anything except possibly an undead creature at these levels. OK, I understand it, but... why this bow is so cheap for a monster and for a PC is so expensive? I want to say: I think Slayer is a bonus +3 (Idon't remember very well) for only one type of creature, so if the bow has all Slayer-types, it must be more expensive. Is not it like that? (I'm not sure)