About Solars [Archive] - Wizards Community

About Solars [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Calan
12-27-03, 05:26 AM why solars dont have teleport without error at will?

archons have it.. i assume that solars are the best celestials

in other hand Balors(best demons) and Pit Fiends(best demons) have too.
Stensler
12-27-03, 10:17 AM They don't really need it, they can cast wish 1/day which can mimic teleport without error. They can also cast cleric spells as a 20th level cleric which gives them word of recal, gate, wind walk etc.
Primus, the One and Prime
12-27-03, 10:24 AM Archons and Solars are not related. Archons are exemplars of Lawful Good, Solars are just Aasimon; two completely different "races" of Outsiders. Aasimon just don't get Teleport w/o Error I guess.
Factol Rhys
12-27-03, 10:28 AM If I ever threw a solar into my campaign (just to be malicious to my players) I wouldn't even worry about what powers it actually had. Solars can do whatever they want. Something as simple as teleport shouldn't even come up. Yes, they can do it. No, they never need to;).

Of course, back in the days of Planescape, all Aasimon had aid, augury, change self, comprehend languages, cure serious wounds x3, detect evil, detect magic, know alignment, read magic, and teleport without error as spell-like abilities. 3e has done away with the aasimon classification in favor of the not-quite-as complete "angel."
DeadEye
02-17-04, 02:36 PM Originally posted by Factol Rhys
If I ever threw a solar into my campaign (just to be malicious to my players) I wouldn't even worry about what powers it actually had. Solars can do whatever they want. Something as simple as teleport shouldn't even come up. Yes, they can do it. No, they never need to;).

Wow, that's exactly the reason why I hate my DM so very, very much.

Try being a 13th level evil party, managing through sheer force of will and the DM fudging rolls and changing spell-lists partway through the encounter, purloining an important plot artifact... and having a solar literally teleport in the round after you kill a level 18 cleric with a template added on (after slaying about a dozen lesser minions including some high powered monk in the same encounter), flamestriking you as a free action somehow. Oh, and somehow increasing its fly speed to 200ft per round rather than 150. Don't even get me started on the fact that it flamestriked innocent bystanders as well with no apparent penalty.

Or having another solar teleport in JUST as the party bunches together to teleport somewhere, with NO indication of why or how it knew where we were, flamestriking the party (killing another innocent bystander) while bunched up...

I'm a straight 14th level cleric now, and the majority of my party is on an equal level, and I would LOVE to know how to destroy a solar, because my DM is using them willy-nilly to abuse us and I'm getting sick of it. Mainly the teleporting, being invisible despite my invisibility purge being on and in range, casting flamestrikes as a free action upon teleporting in without rolling for initiative... it's driving me nuts.

Oh, and before anyone brings it up, yes, I do need a new DM. I'd just like to irritate the living heck out of this one first.
Ogre4Hire
02-17-04, 10:29 PM Originally posted by DeadEye
Wow, that's exactly the reason why I hate my DM so very, very much.

Try being a 13th level evil party, managing through sheer force of will and the DM fudging rolls and changing spell-lists partway through the encounter, purloining an important plot artifact... and having a solar literally teleport in the round after you kill a level 18 cleric with a template added on (after slaying about a dozen lesser minions including some high powered monk in the same encounter), flamestriking you as a free action somehow. Oh, and somehow increasing its fly speed to 200ft per round rather than 150. Don't even get me started on the fact that it flamestriked innocent bystanders as well with no apparent penalty.

Or having another solar teleport in JUST as the party bunches together to teleport somewhere, with NO indication of why or how it knew where we were, flamestriking the party (killing another innocent bystander) while bunched up...

I'm a straight 14th level cleric now, and the majority of my party is on an equal level, and I would LOVE to know how to destroy a solar, because my DM is using them willy-nilly to abuse us and I'm getting sick of it. Mainly the teleporting, being invisible despite my invisibility purge being on and in range, casting flamestrikes as a free action upon teleporting in without rolling for initiative... it's driving me nuts.

Oh, and before anyone brings it up, yes, I do need a new DM. I'd just like to irritate the living heck out of this one first.

You want to kill a Solar? Good luck, since even Pit Fiends and Balors will back down from a confrontation with them.

You could try to bargin with powerful creatures like Demons, Devils, and Red Dragons, but it's unlikely the DM will let you. You should probably just cut your losses and leave.
DeadEye
02-18-04, 12:09 PM Originally posted by Ogre4Hire
You want to kill a Solar? Good luck, since even Pit Fiends and Balors will back down from a confrontation with them.

You could try to bargin with powerful creatures like Demons, Devils, and Red Dragons, but it's unlikely the DM will let you. You should probably just cut your losses and leave.

Yes indeedy, and this fact infuriates me, simply because the DM is allowing his Solars to locate us without our knowledge (we've had debates on how scrying works, and I'm afraid he's simply not telling us it's occurring) and teleport in, multiple times per day (thus, it's not using a Wish to teleport), AND act immediately afterwards. Oh, and if it's invisible, somehow we're just plain not allowed to make a spot check for it being there (which at least one of our PCs has a chance of making). Or a listen check. Or anything. So, no matter what the situation, we never get to react first and we can't hide.

I think it's the whole epic AND evil damage reduction/regeneration which bugs me the most; I can do about 1d8 + 16 damage per hit, four attacks per round (given a full round action), but when the DR is sucking up 15 per hit and the regeneration kicks in, I might as well be trying to stab its eyes out with tissue paper. I think I need to check the min/max board. That, or find a way to haste myself. Oh, and get a Mighty bow that's more than +4 str.

Anyway, I'm sure that this Solar problem is confined to this campaign. The DM seems to be retarded. Brutally retarded. Sigh.
Rotipher
02-18-04, 01:06 PM Sounds to me like these solars are just this DM's pet version of the proverbial "cows from space", that gamemasters drop on top of PCs whose players seem to be (or really are) deliberately trying to annoy them. What you need to do is find a way to get along with your DM, *not* worry about solars' damage resistance.
Primus, the One and Prime
02-18-04, 01:19 PM Yes, there is a difference between highly powerful beings that are avatars of good who SHOULD be incredibly difficult to kill, and annoying plot devices designed to backhand the PCs whenever they do something you don't agree with. Me? When I want to backhand a PC I just drop the proverbial rock.
Freefall
02-18-04, 04:21 PM If you can summon 1 or 2 Balors or Pit Fiends to help you, that would make things a lot easier. A Balor getting into melee combat with a Solar should be able to fight him to a standstill until one or the other's vorpal weapon activated. Since It doesn't say anywhere that a Solar's sword is made of cold iron, it won't penetrate the Balor's DR (which says evil and cold iron), so they'll barely be able to hurt each other (this is one of the reasons I hate the new DR rules). The problem here would be getting the Balor into melee combat. Without that, those damned "can-kill-whatever-it-shoots-at-in-one-hit" bows could be a problem. But since Balors are a bit smarter than Solars (and Pit Fiends even moreso), they should be able to come up with something. Of course, another problem here is that you need to be able to summon them, and they need to be willing to help (I'm sure they'd happily kill a Solar if they got the chance, but that doesn't mean they'll go around starting fights with the things just because some prime asked them too. Solars are still dangerous).

Of course, you're biggest problem seems to be that your DM isn't really playing by the rules, and unfortunately, unless you and the other players manage to change his mind about abusing the power of Solars, it probably wouldn't really matter if you got command of an army of Balors.
fatal error
02-19-04, 02:08 AM yea i hate it when GMs make up their minds to kill/annoy people and so won't play by the rules but won't simply have a meteor fall on you no they have to attack you with far too powerful monsters and if you look liek you have a cahnce of living thye start fudging dice rolls and abilities

gm in one game in star wars sent boba fett (11-13 level guy) against a group of like 8th level guys along wiht a bunch of random thugs

so annoying
Archangel
02-19-04, 03:09 AM You can use Greater Planar Ally to summon said Balor! Also if all of your players are annoyed by your DM's Solars then just make him stop or make him play with himself!
Shemeska the Marauder
02-19-04, 05:17 AM Meddling Aasimon...

Sounds like your DM is using them just as Rotipher said, "cows from space".

I shy away from using Solars simply because they're rarely acting outside of the direct goals of a true deity. Archons have their own society and own goals, Solars and the other Aasimon serve the collective pantheons of good aligned deities.

And I loathe the 3.5 use of Angel to describe the Aasimon. It's plain pandering to the lowest common denominator of "Lets just call 'em angels and demons and devils, the other names is too complicated. My brain hurts."

Ok, and with that overt flame bait there... I've used a Solar once. It was a proxy of Geb and the client of a Gehennan Arcanaloth that my PCs killed in retribution for his actions on behalf of a former client they know only as 'The Representative of the Tower'. It'll be interesting to see how they handle this, assuming the 'loth was telling the truth about his client being a solar. The solar is unlikely to be amused that his negotiator on the lower planes was assassinated.
Mirtek
02-19-04, 06:43 AM Originally posted by DeadEye
Yes indeedy, and this fact infuriates me, simply because the DM is allowing his Solars to locate us without our knowledge (we've had debates on how scrying works, and I'm afraid he's simply not telling us it's occurring).
Well, Solars are normally send directly by the deities of good as kind of last resourt. Sending a solar ranks just short of sending an avatar!

And for deities it's pretty easy to scry out some mortals (with their divine remote sensing powers they won't even need to scry)
l3lasphemy
02-19-04, 05:52 PM Archons and Solars are not related. Archons are exemplars of Lawful Good, Solars are just Aasimon; two completely different "races" of Outsiders. Aasimon just don't get Teleport w/o Error I guess.

I thought they were related...they say that they are both Celestials and in the 3.5 MM, they are described as just that...Angels (solars) are celestials from the good-aligned outer planes...and Archons are celestials from (specifically) Celestia. Even Guardinals are celestials from Elysium. Maybe I'm retarded, but if there is different information about it that I havent seen, let me know where i can take a look at it, this subject intrigues me.
The Hanged Man
02-19-04, 06:06 PM Originally posted by DeadEye
I'm a straight 14th level cleric now, and the majority of my party is on an equal level, and I would LOVE to know how to destroy a solar, because my DM is using them willy-nilly to abuse us and I'm getting sick of it. Mainly the teleporting, being invisible despite my invisibility purge being on and in range, casting flamestrikes as a free action upon teleporting in without rolling for initiative... it's driving me nuts.

That's a shame. But I have to admit, I rarely play Solars, Pit Fiends, and other really smart, really powerful creatures as written. Frankly, as a DM, I'm nowhere near as smart as those guys should be. I often fudge the rules for them to simulate just how gawd-awful wise and smart they should be - like giving them knowledge they shouldn't have, and not even giving them spell lists.

My theory is that they're so smart, wise, and old that they probably can figure out, from very little evidence, exactly what the players are doing and are up to. And they're so smart and wise that they would have known exactly what spells to cast.

Not all the time, of course - mostly I just play 'em by the book. But every now and then, they're just . . . tough. They can be tricked, but it'd have to be a good trick.

And for the record, AFAIK I'm not Deadeye's DM. My players routinely enjoy the challenge of truly powerful, prepared, and tough monsters.
Shemeska the Marauder
02-19-04, 06:23 PM Originally posted by l3lasphemy
I thought they were related...they say that they are both Celestials and in the 3.5 MM, they are described as just that...Angels (solars) are celestials from the good-aligned outer planes...and Archons are celestials from (specifically) Celestia. Even Guardinals are celestials from Elysium. Maybe I'm retarded, but if there is different information about it that I havent seen, let me know where i can take a look at it, this subject intrigues me.

They're not related aside from being good aligned outer planar natives. Aasimon/Angels, Archons, Guardinals and Eladrin are all their own specific species. Celestial is just the generic term to describe good aligned exemplars.

In the same way fiend is the generic term to describe evil outsiders, this doesn't mean that Tanar'ri, Baatezu, Yugoloths, Gehreleths and others are in any way related besides being evil. They have their own unique societies and views on the nature of evil, and in the case of Tanar'ri and Baatezu they war eternally over these differences.

But getting back to the original point: Aasimon/Angels are not native to any one specific good aligned plane, and don't have as much of a society of their own as the other three celestial races. The Archons of Mount Celestia are the physical manifestations of LG, Guardinals the physical manifestations of NG, and Eladrin the same for CG. Their societies are unique, their goals in the planes different according to their racial alignment, and their interaction with mortals and indeed the other celestial races are different.

The main difference between fiends and celestials is that celestials don't, at least not as far as anyone can remember, war amongst each other over the law/chaos axis of good alignments as the fiends do in The Blood War.

The 3.5 MM is the barest source of information to work off of. The celestial races, as well as all of the fiends and the law/chaos exemplars were mostly developed in amazing depth in the 2e Planescape line of source books, box sets and modules.

Specifically you might want to look at the Planes of Law, Planes of Chaos, and Planes of Conflict box sets that detail each of the outer planes and their native races. As well there's Hellbound:The Blood War, a box set detailing that infernal conflict and the roll that each of the planar races plays in it and in relation to each other, including the celestial races, each with their own opinion and own take.

While the Planescape books are out of print, they're all available on pdf or on Ebay regularly, though a few of the box sets can get pricey.

As far as 3e Planescape, I'd suggest you check out Planewalker (http://www.planewalker.com) the official 3e conversion of Planescape.
Mirtek
02-19-04, 06:26 PM Originally posted by l3lasphemy
I thought they were related...they say that they are both Celestials
And Balors and Pit Fiends are both fiends, but that doesn't make them related.

Celestials is just a common name for good outsiders from the upper planes, as fiends is a common name for all evil outsiders from the lower planes.

But that doesn't mean that all celestials are related.
Primus, the One and Prime
02-19-04, 06:27 PM Shemeska the Marauder: Planescape Pimp.

:: Primus sketches an arcanaloth in a purple fur coat::
l3lasphemy
02-19-04, 06:35 PM Well thanks for all that information, I'll be sure to look more into. I guess I just viewed it in the same way some people could see humans. How people classify themselves as Humans, and then Subclass (if you will) themselves into different races inside the human race....Black people, Asians, Latina...and good ol' Whitey. Sort of like that i suppose. Like..Celestials is a term to describe a race of good. al. outsiders...and although there are many different 'subraces' with different views, social structures and what not...they are still the same base race. Same with balors...and pit fiends and the like...theyre fiends...and just because they hate eachother doesnt really make them unrelated. I dont know, thats just how i saw it i suppose. But thanks for the insight!
Shemeska the Marauder
02-19-04, 06:59 PM Originally posted by Primus, the One and Prime
Shemeska the Marauder: Planescape Pimp.

:: Primus sketches an arcanaloth in a purple fur coat::

One of my friends is supposedly drawing that in jest actually, based on some offhand comment I had jokingly made about running a d20 modern Planescape game in Sigil w/ Shemmy decked out as a pimp w/ a crossdressing A'kin hooker (the friendliest fiend spreading kindness the old fashioned way) and her tiefling goons pushing crack in the Hive.

*innocent*

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Calan 12-27-03, 05:26 AM	why solars dont have teleport without error at will? archons have it.. i assume that solars are the best celestials in other hand Balors(best demons) and Pit Fiends(best demons) have too.
Stensler 12-27-03, 10:17 AM	They don't really need it, they can cast wish 1/day which can mimic teleport without error. They can also cast cleric spells as a 20th level cleric which gives them word of recal, gate, wind walk etc.
Primus, the One and Prime 12-27-03, 10:24 AM	Archons and Solars are not related. Archons are exemplars of Lawful Good, Solars are just Aasimon; two completely different "races" of Outsiders. Aasimon just don't get Teleport w/o Error I guess.
Factol Rhys 12-27-03, 10:28 AM	If I ever threw a solar into my campaign (just to be malicious to my players) I wouldn't even worry about what powers it actually had. Solars can do whatever they want. Something as simple as teleport shouldn't even come up. Yes, they can do it. No, they never need to;). Of course, back in the days of Planescape, all Aasimon had aid, augury, change self, comprehend languages, cure serious wounds x3, detect evil, detect magic, know alignment, read magic, and teleport without error as spell-like abilities. 3e has done away with the aasimon classification in favor of the not-quite-as complete "angel."
DeadEye 02-17-04, 02:36 PM	Originally posted by Factol Rhys If I ever threw a solar into my campaign (just to be malicious to my players) I wouldn't even worry about what powers it actually had. Solars can do whatever they want. Something as simple as teleport shouldn't even come up. Yes, they can do it. No, they never need to;). Wow, that's exactly the reason why I hate my DM so very, very much. Try being a 13th level evil party, managing through sheer force of will and the DM fudging rolls and changing spell-lists partway through the encounter, purloining an important plot artifact... and having a solar literally teleport in the round after you kill a level 18 cleric with a template added on (after slaying about a dozen lesser minions including some high powered monk in the same encounter), flamestriking you as a free action somehow. Oh, and somehow increasing its fly speed to 200ft per round rather than 150. Don't even get me started on the fact that it flamestriked innocent bystanders as well with no apparent penalty. Or having another solar teleport in JUST as the party bunches together to teleport somewhere, with NO indication of why or how it knew where we were, flamestriking the party (killing another innocent bystander) while bunched up... I'm a straight 14th level cleric now, and the majority of my party is on an equal level, and I would LOVE to know how to destroy a solar, because my DM is using them willy-nilly to abuse us and I'm getting sick of it. Mainly the teleporting, being invisible despite my invisibility purge being on and in range, casting flamestrikes as a free action upon teleporting in without rolling for initiative... it's driving me nuts. Oh, and before anyone brings it up, yes, I do need a new DM. I'd just like to irritate the living heck out of this one first.
Ogre4Hire 02-17-04, 10:29 PM	Originally posted by DeadEye Wow, that's exactly the reason why I hate my DM so very, very much. Try being a 13th level evil party, managing through sheer force of will and the DM fudging rolls and changing spell-lists partway through the encounter, purloining an important plot artifact... and having a solar literally teleport in the round after you kill a level 18 cleric with a template added on (after slaying about a dozen lesser minions including some high powered monk in the same encounter), flamestriking you as a free action somehow. Oh, and somehow increasing its fly speed to 200ft per round rather than 150. Don't even get me started on the fact that it flamestriked innocent bystanders as well with no apparent penalty. Or having another solar teleport in JUST as the party bunches together to teleport somewhere, with NO indication of why or how it knew where we were, flamestriking the party (killing another innocent bystander) while bunched up... I'm a straight 14th level cleric now, and the majority of my party is on an equal level, and I would LOVE to know how to destroy a solar, because my DM is using them willy-nilly to abuse us and I'm getting sick of it. Mainly the teleporting, being invisible despite my invisibility purge being on and in range, casting flamestrikes as a free action upon teleporting in without rolling for initiative... it's driving me nuts. Oh, and before anyone brings it up, yes, I do need a new DM. I'd just like to irritate the living heck out of this one first. You want to kill a Solar? Good luck, since even Pit Fiends and Balors will back down from a confrontation with them. You could try to bargin with powerful creatures like Demons, Devils, and Red Dragons, but it's unlikely the DM will let you. You should probably just cut your losses and leave.
DeadEye 02-18-04, 12:09 PM	Originally posted by Ogre4Hire You want to kill a Solar? Good luck, since even Pit Fiends and Balors will back down from a confrontation with them. You could try to bargin with powerful creatures like Demons, Devils, and Red Dragons, but it's unlikely the DM will let you. You should probably just cut your losses and leave. Yes indeedy, and this fact infuriates me, simply because the DM is allowing his Solars to locate us without our knowledge (we've had debates on how scrying works, and I'm afraid he's simply not telling us it's occurring) and teleport in, multiple times per day (thus, it's not using a Wish to teleport), AND act immediately afterwards. Oh, and if it's invisible, somehow we're just plain not allowed to make a spot check for it being there (which at least one of our PCs has a chance of making). Or a listen check. Or anything. So, no matter what the situation, we never get to react first and we can't hide. I think it's the whole epic AND evil damage reduction/regeneration which bugs me the most; I can do about 1d8 + 16 damage per hit, four attacks per round (given a full round action), but when the DR is sucking up 15 per hit and the regeneration kicks in, I might as well be trying to stab its eyes out with tissue paper. I think I need to check the min/max board. That, or find a way to haste myself. Oh, and get a Mighty bow that's more than +4 str. Anyway, I'm sure that this Solar problem is confined to this campaign. The DM seems to be retarded. Brutally retarded. Sigh.
Rotipher 02-18-04, 01:06 PM	Sounds to me like these solars are just this DM's pet version of the proverbial "cows from space", that gamemasters drop on top of PCs whose players seem to be (or really are) deliberately trying to annoy them. What you need to do is find a way to get along with your DM, not worry about solars' damage resistance.
Primus, the One and Prime 02-18-04, 01:19 PM	Yes, there is a difference between highly powerful beings that are avatars of good who SHOULD be incredibly difficult to kill, and annoying plot devices designed to backhand the PCs whenever they do something you don't agree with. Me? When I want to backhand a PC I just drop the proverbial rock.
Freefall 02-18-04, 04:21 PM	If you can summon 1 or 2 Balors or Pit Fiends to help you, that would make things a lot easier. A Balor getting into melee combat with a Solar should be able to fight him to a standstill until one or the other's vorpal weapon activated. Since It doesn't say anywhere that a Solar's sword is made of cold iron, it won't penetrate the Balor's DR (which says evil and cold iron), so they'll barely be able to hurt each other (this is one of the reasons I hate the new DR rules). The problem here would be getting the Balor into melee combat. Without that, those damned "can-kill-whatever-it-shoots-at-in-one-hit" bows could be a problem. But since Balors are a bit smarter than Solars (and Pit Fiends even moreso), they should be able to come up with something. Of course, another problem here is that you need to be able to summon them, and they need to be willing to help (I'm sure they'd happily kill a Solar if they got the chance, but that doesn't mean they'll go around starting fights with the things just because some prime asked them too. Solars are still dangerous). Of course, you're biggest problem seems to be that your DM isn't really playing by the rules, and unfortunately, unless you and the other players manage to change his mind about abusing the power of Solars, it probably wouldn't really matter if you got command of an army of Balors.
fatal error 02-19-04, 02:08 AM	yea i hate it when GMs make up their minds to kill/annoy people and so won't play by the rules but won't simply have a meteor fall on you no they have to attack you with far too powerful monsters and if you look liek you have a cahnce of living thye start fudging dice rolls and abilities gm in one game in star wars sent boba fett (11-13 level guy) against a group of like 8th level guys along wiht a bunch of random thugs so annoying
Archangel 02-19-04, 03:09 AM	You can use Greater Planar Ally to summon said Balor! Also if all of your players are annoyed by your DM's Solars then just make him stop or make him play with himself!
Shemeska the Marauder 02-19-04, 05:17 AM	Meddling Aasimon... Sounds like your DM is using them just as Rotipher said, "cows from space". I shy away from using Solars simply because they're rarely acting outside of the direct goals of a true deity. Archons have their own society and own goals, Solars and the other Aasimon serve the collective pantheons of good aligned deities. And I loathe the 3.5 use of Angel to describe the Aasimon. It's plain pandering to the lowest common denominator of "Lets just call 'em angels and demons and devils, the other names is too complicated. My brain hurts." Ok, and with that overt flame bait there... I've used a Solar once. It was a proxy of Geb and the client of a Gehennan Arcanaloth that my PCs killed in retribution for his actions on behalf of a former client they know only as 'The Representative of the Tower'. It'll be interesting to see how they handle this, assuming the 'loth was telling the truth about his client being a solar. The solar is unlikely to be amused that his negotiator on the lower planes was assassinated.
Mirtek 02-19-04, 06:43 AM	Originally posted by DeadEye Yes indeedy, and this fact infuriates me, simply because the DM is allowing his Solars to locate us without our knowledge (we've had debates on how scrying works, and I'm afraid he's simply not telling us it's occurring). Well, Solars are normally send directly by the deities of good as kind of last resourt. Sending a solar ranks just short of sending an avatar! And for deities it's pretty easy to scry out some mortals (with their divine remote sensing powers they won't even need to scry)
l3lasphemy 02-19-04, 05:52 PM	Archons and Solars are not related. Archons are exemplars of Lawful Good, Solars are just Aasimon; two completely different "races" of Outsiders. Aasimon just don't get Teleport w/o Error I guess. I thought they were related...they say that they are both Celestials and in the 3.5 MM, they are described as just that...Angels (solars) are celestials from the good-aligned outer planes...and Archons are celestials from (specifically) Celestia. Even Guardinals are celestials from Elysium. Maybe I'm retarded, but if there is different information about it that I havent seen, let me know where i can take a look at it, this subject intrigues me.
The Hanged Man 02-19-04, 06:06 PM	Originally posted by DeadEye I'm a straight 14th level cleric now, and the majority of my party is on an equal level, and I would LOVE to know how to destroy a solar, because my DM is using them willy-nilly to abuse us and I'm getting sick of it. Mainly the teleporting, being invisible despite my invisibility purge being on and in range, casting flamestrikes as a free action upon teleporting in without rolling for initiative... it's driving me nuts. That's a shame. But I have to admit, I rarely play Solars, Pit Fiends, and other really smart, really powerful creatures as written. Frankly, as a DM, I'm nowhere near as smart as those guys should be. I often fudge the rules for them to simulate just how gawd-awful wise and smart they should be - like giving them knowledge they shouldn't have, and not even giving them spell lists. My theory is that they're so smart, wise, and old that they probably can figure out, from very little evidence, exactly what the players are doing and are up to. And they're so smart and wise that they would have known exactly what spells to cast. Not all the time, of course - mostly I just play 'em by the book. But every now and then, they're just . . . tough. They can be tricked, but it'd have to be a good trick. And for the record, AFAIK I'm not Deadeye's DM. My players routinely enjoy the challenge of truly powerful, prepared, and tough monsters.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-19-04, 06:23 PM	Originally posted by l3lasphemy I thought they were related...they say that they are both Celestials and in the 3.5 MM, they are described as just that...Angels (solars) are celestials from the good-aligned outer planes...and Archons are celestials from (specifically) Celestia. Even Guardinals are celestials from Elysium. Maybe I'm retarded, but if there is different information about it that I havent seen, let me know where i can take a look at it, this subject intrigues me. They're not related aside from being good aligned outer planar natives. Aasimon/Angels, Archons, Guardinals and Eladrin are all their own specific species. Celestial is just the generic term to describe good aligned exemplars. In the same way fiend is the generic term to describe evil outsiders, this doesn't mean that Tanar'ri, Baatezu, Yugoloths, Gehreleths and others are in any way related besides being evil. They have their own unique societies and views on the nature of evil, and in the case of Tanar'ri and Baatezu they war eternally over these differences. But getting back to the original point: Aasimon/Angels are not native to any one specific good aligned plane, and don't have as much of a society of their own as the other three celestial races. The Archons of Mount Celestia are the physical manifestations of LG, Guardinals the physical manifestations of NG, and Eladrin the same for CG. Their societies are unique, their goals in the planes different according to their racial alignment, and their interaction with mortals and indeed the other celestial races are different. The main difference between fiends and celestials is that celestials don't, at least not as far as anyone can remember, war amongst each other over the law/chaos axis of good alignments as the fiends do in The Blood War. The 3.5 MM is the barest source of information to work off of. The celestial races, as well as all of the fiends and the law/chaos exemplars were mostly developed in amazing depth in the 2e Planescape line of source books, box sets and modules. Specifically you might want to look at the Planes of Law, Planes of Chaos, and Planes of Conflict box sets that detail each of the outer planes and their native races. As well there's Hellbound:The Blood War, a box set detailing that infernal conflict and the roll that each of the planar races plays in it and in relation to each other, including the celestial races, each with their own opinion and own take. While the Planescape books are out of print, they're all available on pdf or on Ebay regularly, though a few of the box sets can get pricey. As far as 3e Planescape, I'd suggest you check out Planewalker (http://www.planewalker.com) the official 3e conversion of Planescape.
Mirtek 02-19-04, 06:26 PM	Originally posted by l3lasphemy I thought they were related...they say that they are both Celestials And Balors and Pit Fiends are both fiends, but that doesn't make them related. Celestials is just a common name for good outsiders from the upper planes, as fiends is a common name for all evil outsiders from the lower planes. But that doesn't mean that all celestials are related.
Primus, the One and Prime 02-19-04, 06:27 PM	Shemeska the Marauder: Planescape Pimp. :: Primus sketches an arcanaloth in a purple fur coat::
l3lasphemy 02-19-04, 06:35 PM	Well thanks for all that information, I'll be sure to look more into. I guess I just viewed it in the same way some people could see humans. How people classify themselves as Humans, and then Subclass (if you will) themselves into different races inside the human race....Black people, Asians, Latina...and good ol' Whitey. Sort of like that i suppose. Like..Celestials is a term to describe a race of good. al. outsiders...and although there are many different 'subraces' with different views, social structures and what not...they are still the same base race. Same with balors...and pit fiends and the like...theyre fiends...and just because they hate eachother doesnt really make them unrelated. I dont know, thats just how i saw it i suppose. But thanks for the insight!
Shemeska the Marauder 02-19-04, 06:59 PM	Originally posted by Primus, the One and Prime Shemeska the Marauder: Planescape Pimp. :: Primus sketches an arcanaloth in a purple fur coat:: One of my friends is supposedly drawing that in jest actually, based on some offhand comment I had jokingly made about running a d20 modern Planescape game in Sigil w/ Shemmy decked out as a pimp w/ a crossdressing A'kin hooker (the friendliest fiend spreading kindness the old fashioned way) and her tiefling goons pushing crack in the Hive. innocent