Abyssal Maw [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abyssal Maw [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Korlall
09-19-06, 11:31 AM The Abyssal Maw (MMII p.56-57)has the following Special Ability :

Rend Fallen (Ex): An Abyssal Maw loves to tear into it's downed foes. It automatically deals an additional 2d8+4 points of damage to any foe it drops with a melee attack.

What exactly it means ?

1- If he trips the target, he deals the extra dmg ?

2- If the attacks and make a player go to 0 (uncouncious so dropped to the ground) it deals extra damage ? (which would mean that a character dropped to zero would probaly die becasue of the 6-20 extra points of damage)

3- Something Else ?
Armoracia Rusticana
09-19-06, 11:47 AM Shortly, 2.
Talisman
09-19-06, 04:36 PM Rend Fallen (Ex): An Abyssal Maw loves to tear into it's downed foes. It automatically deals an additional 2d8+4 points of damage to any foe it drops with a melee attack.

"Drops" in rules-speak means a very specific thing: reduced below 0 hit points and rendered combat-ineffective (which automatically happens unless you have Diehard, Ferocity, or some similar power). As Armoracia said, it is #2.
Korlall
09-20-06, 06:25 AM Thank guys... What a powerful ability it is. I guess we could be happy that that monster is only a low CR monster... A mid to high level monster with that thing could really crush characters fast...
Yak of Darkness
09-20-06, 05:51 PM "Drops" in rules-speak means a very specific thing: reduced below 0 hit points and rendered combat-ineffective (which automatically happens unless you have Diehard, Ferocity, or some similar power).Playing devil's advocate here . . . where, exactly, is this very specific rules-speak?

I'm looking at the "Conditions Summary" in the SRD, and I don't see "dropped" anywhere. There's "knocked down," but that applies to wind effects, and "prone" doesn't require you to be below 0 HP. Neither "disabled" or "dying" (the relevant conditions for being at and below 0 HP) mention "dropped" anywhere, either.

Where do the rules actually say "drops" means what you say it does?
Sildatorak
09-20-06, 07:01 PM If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)

There is the orignial use of dropped. Though it does not technically define drop and is restricted to "enough damage to make it drop," we can probably count on this as a guide for other uses of the term.
Yak of Darkness
09-20-06, 07:08 PM and is restricted to "enough damage to make it drop,"It's explicitly not restricted to that, though. Look at it again:

If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)The use of the word "typically" clearly implies that this is not the only way to "drop" someone.

And, as the word "drop" doesn't actually seemed to be defined anywhere, it seems to be more of a DM's call issue (although a DM limiting it purely to "killing someone/reducing someone' HP below 0" would appear to be at least going against the way the term is used for Cleave). Unless there's a reference I'm missing, it's definitely not a term that has a very specific rules-speak meaning.
Korlall
09-20-06, 07:37 PM It's explicitly not restricted to that, though. Look at it again:

The use of the word "typically" clearly implies that this is not the only way to "drop" someone.

And, as the word "drop" doesn't actually seemed to be defined anywhere, it seems to be more of a DM's call issue (although a DM limiting it purely to "killing someone/reducing someone' HP below 0" would appear to be at least going against the way the term is used for Cleave). Unless there's a reference I'm missing, it's definitely not a term that has a very specific rules-speak meaning.

Since you seem to be right about the fact that there is no real reference.... Are you saying that you think that if you were to put that monster in your game, you would work this ability someother way that the others above told ?
Yak of Darkness
09-20-06, 07:45 PM Honestly, I probably wouldn't run the monster at all. I'm not a big fan of "Sucks to be you!" mechanics. ;)

All I really took issue with was the statement that "'Drops' in rules-speak means a very specific thing." It doesn't, really.

Although, I guess for a comparable mechanic, I would allow a fighter to cleave off of, say, a trip attempt--since it's hard to argue that knocking someone's ass on the ground isn't "dropping" them (especially when there's not in-game definition for "drop"), but it's not the typical way, IMX, that the players' foes hit the ground.

That'd just be my own interpretation of it, though. Your milage may vary . . . and still be within the rules, at that. ;)
Sildatorak
09-20-06, 08:08 PM Although, I guess for a comparable mechanic, I would allow a fighter to cleave off of, say, a trip attempt
Unless your fighter does enough damage to trip him, you don't get the freebie attack.
deal a creature enough damage to make it drop

I agree about "drop" not being a well-defined rules term, I think the intent of cleave and other "drop" uses is probably restricted to a KO or a kill.
WhiteRaven810
09-20-06, 08:16 PM Wasn't it errated or ruled or the equivilent that Tripping a foe would trigger the Cleave feat?

If this is true and simply not a dream I may or may not have had, wouldn't the same logic apply to the Abyssal Maw and it's deal?

So if I'm right, the answer may be both one and two. I want it doubly noted however that I cannot recall where I read that ruling.
Yak of Darkness
09-20-06, 08:33 PM Unless your fighter does enough damage to trip him, you don't get the freebie attack.You're right there, that's my mistake. The Cleave feat does say that the "dropping" there has to be done through damage.

I rescind my previous statement about it working off of a trip--that's not the way it works.

I agree about "drop" not being a well-defined rules term, I think the intent of cleave and other "drop" uses is probably restricted to a KO or a kill.Except, again, the text of the Cleave feat, the very rules you quoted in your previous post, negates that interpretation (what an atypical way of doing enough damage to drop someone without KOing them or killing them is, I don't know, but the feat apparently allows for it :) ).

And while damage does need to be involved in dropping someone in order for Cleave to be used, this:

Does not imply that all "dropping" needs to involve direct damage.
Is different from the way the Abyssal Maw's entry is phrased . . . "automatically deals an additional 2d8+4 points of damage to any foe it drops with a melee attack."

The AM's ability actually reads looser than the Cleave feat, as the AM doesn't have the requirement of doing damage.

But then, that just leads to discussion of what qualifies as a "melee attack" and arguments about what the "intent" of the rules are. The latter, especially, never goes anywhere*, though, so I'll bow out at this point. :)

Aside from the fact that it's rare that anyone ever really knows what the designers' intent in making the rules is (and such arguments usually have people saying, "these are the Rules As Intended" when they seem to mean, "these are the Rules As I Think They Should Work"), sometimes we do know what they're thinking, and it still doesn't make sense.

Like when writer Bruce Cordell was asked why the astral construct psionic power was changed (nerfed, really) in Complete Psionic . . . as many psi-fans saw no reason for the change.

Bruce explained his intent behind the rules (citing two reasons that he considered problems with the power as written). His first problem (that a wilder character could use his class features to create more powerful constructs than should be in play at the level) was unchanged by the nerfing--wilders can still do this just as well. His second problem (that a character summoning multiple creatures takes too much time in combat) sounds ridiculous when you consider that Complete Psionic introduced new powers that can, or at least can be augmented to, summon multiple creatures in the same casting--something even astral construct could not do.

So even when we do know what designer intent was, it doesn't always help things. :)
PhaedrusXY
09-21-06, 12:35 AM I feel quite sure that they meant for it to work as 2, Rules Lawyer Arguments aside.
Talisman
09-22-06, 02:49 PM From the SRD (my emphasis):
MOUNTED COMBAT...
...If You Are Dropped: If you are knocked unconscious, you have a 50% chance to stay in the saddle (or 75% if you’re in a military saddle). Otherwise you fall and take 1d6 points of damage.

I don't have my PHB handy, but I have always understood "dropped" to mean "rendered combat-ineffective due to damage", or rather "reduced below 0 hp". The few examples I have found in the SRD (the Cleave feat at the Mounted Combat section) seem to bear this out.

However, as with nearly everything in D&D, it's subject to the "what the GM thinks best" rule.
ZeronHitaro
09-22-06, 03:58 PM Just browsing over the brief bits of information, perhaps the mechanic could be fixed by substituting the word "drops" for "knocks prone"? Therefore only giving it that extra damage upon a successful trip attack. When I look at it from that context it makes more sence to me. Somehow I get the feeling the wording of "drops" was simply a writer working at 2am with weak coffee, creating a mix of vocabulary. XD
Talisman
09-27-06, 04:44 PM However, when you're reduced below 0 hp I'm pretty sure you're knocked prone since you fall unconscious. This actually makes them more danagerous, rather than less.
ZeronHitaro
09-27-06, 09:21 PM However, when you're reduced below 0 hp I'm pretty sure you're knocked prone since you fall unconscious. This actually makes them more danagerous, rather than less.

Hmm, to me though it sounds more like falling below 0 HP would make you "helpless" rather than "prone".
Talisman
09-29-06, 02:48 PM Are you saying that an unconscious, dying, helpless creature should not be considered prone?
ZeronHitaro
09-29-06, 10:48 PM Are you saying that an unconscious, dying, helpless creature should not be considered prone?

Yes. Because there is a fundamental different due to threat appearance. Allow me to elaborate. Which is more dangerous?

A. A man with a gun who just tripped and fell.

Or

B. A man with a gun who is unconcious

To compare this to helpless and prone along with Abyssal Maw, one can look at it from a matter of survival instinct. The Maw seems character A as a threat, goes in and trips them, knocking them prone. The Maw sences this weakness and acknowledges (even if just by pure instinct) that A is still a threat and in a rush of panic/adrenaline surges forward to assault the character for extra damage while prone.

Conversely as in scenario B, the Maw attacks and character and takes them to -4 HP, possibly causing them to slip unconcious or something of the like. The Maw can tell this character no long has the ability to fight and therefore is not under the same motivation to place extra emphasis into it's attack, rather finishing it simply or focusing on the next immediate threat.

To compare:

Prone
The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

Emphasis mine, note that in description for helpless is says "as equivalent to attacking a prone target", not, "you are also prone". Hence backing up my thoughts on helpless and prone being two different scenarios.
Talisman
10-03-06, 07:54 PM Granted. I acknowledge that prone and helpless are in no way the same condition, either in the real world or in D&D.

My arguement is that the word "drops" in D&D refers to someone dropping to the ground--generally because they are rendered unconscious due to hit-point damage.

A person who is rendered prone--whether because they are tripped, the deliberately fall to the ground, or they fall unconscious and collapse--can be said to drop.

I further argue that (almost) any condition that rendered a character helpless also renders them prone. Note the "almost." Certain conditions, such as being paralyzed, render one helpless without rendering them prone.

By simple logic, a character is rendered prone if they are affected by any of the following criteria (bizarre circumstances excepted):

Unconscious (due to damage)
Unconscious (due to other effects)
Tripped
Deliberately prone

Therefore, unless the character in question is wearing a magical exoskeleton-suit, is of a strange shape such that they cannot be tripped (such as a delver) or is being held up by allies, a creature that is rendered unconscious due to hit point loss ought to be considered prone.

While this is painful from a PC's point of view, it makes perfect sense from the abyssal maw's point of view...finish off the wounded so they don't get healed and come back to kill you. Even though the maw won't be thinking per se, its original breeders no doubt "programmed" this impulse into it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Korlall 09-19-06, 11:31 AM	The Abyssal Maw (MMII p.56-57)has the following Special Ability : Rend Fallen (Ex): An Abyssal Maw loves to tear into it's downed foes. It automatically deals an additional 2d8+4 points of damage to any foe it drops with a melee attack. What exactly it means ? 1- If he trips the target, he deals the extra dmg ? 2- If the attacks and make a player go to 0 (uncouncious so dropped to the ground) it deals extra damage ? (which would mean that a character dropped to zero would probaly die becasue of the 6-20 extra points of damage) 3- Something Else ?
Armoracia Rusticana 09-19-06, 11:47 AM	Shortly, 2.
Talisman 09-19-06, 04:36 PM	Rend Fallen (Ex): An Abyssal Maw loves to tear into it's downed foes. It automatically deals an additional 2d8+4 points of damage to any foe it drops with a melee attack. "Drops" in rules-speak means a very specific thing: reduced below 0 hit points and rendered combat-ineffective (which automatically happens unless you have Diehard, Ferocity, or some similar power). As Armoracia said, it is #2.
Korlall 09-20-06, 06:25 AM	Thank guys... What a powerful ability it is. I guess we could be happy that that monster is only a low CR monster... A mid to high level monster with that thing could really crush characters fast...
Yak of Darkness 09-20-06, 05:51 PM	"Drops" in rules-speak means a very specific thing: reduced below 0 hit points and rendered combat-ineffective (which automatically happens unless you have Diehard, Ferocity, or some similar power).Playing devil's advocate here . . . where, exactly, is this very specific rules-speak? I'm looking at the "Conditions Summary" in the SRD, and I don't see "dropped" anywhere. There's "knocked down," but that applies to wind effects, and "prone" doesn't require you to be below 0 HP. Neither "disabled" or "dying" (the relevant conditions for being at and below 0 HP) mention "dropped" anywhere, either. Where do the rules actually say "drops" means what you say it does?
Sildatorak 09-20-06, 07:01 PM	If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it) There is the orignial use of dropped. Though it does not technically define drop and is restricted to "enough damage to make it drop," we can probably count on this as a guide for other uses of the term.
Yak of Darkness 09-20-06, 07:08 PM	and is restricted to "enough damage to make it drop,"It's explicitly not restricted to that, though. Look at it again: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)The use of the word "typically" clearly implies that this is not the only way to "drop" someone. And, as the word "drop" doesn't actually seemed to be defined anywhere, it seems to be more of a DM's call issue (although a DM limiting it purely to "killing someone/reducing someone' HP below 0" would appear to be at least going against the way the term is used for Cleave). Unless there's a reference I'm missing, it's definitely not a term that has a very specific rules-speak meaning.
Korlall 09-20-06, 07:37 PM	It's explicitly not restricted to that, though. Look at it again: The use of the word "typically" clearly implies that this is not the only way to "drop" someone. And, as the word "drop" doesn't actually seemed to be defined anywhere, it seems to be more of a DM's call issue (although a DM limiting it purely to "killing someone/reducing someone' HP below 0" would appear to be at least going against the way the term is used for Cleave). Unless there's a reference I'm missing, it's definitely not a term that has a very specific rules-speak meaning. Since you seem to be right about the fact that there is no real reference.... Are you saying that you think that if you were to put that monster in your game, you would work this ability someother way that the others above told ?
Yak of Darkness 09-20-06, 07:45 PM	Honestly, I probably wouldn't run the monster at all. I'm not a big fan of "Sucks to be you!" mechanics. ;) All I really took issue with was the statement that "'Drops' in rules-speak means a very specific thing." It doesn't, really. Although, I guess for a comparable mechanic, I would allow a fighter to cleave off of, say, a trip attempt--since it's hard to argue that knocking someone's ass on the ground isn't "dropping" them (especially when there's not in-game definition for "drop"), but it's not the typical way, IMX, that the players' foes hit the ground. That'd just be my own interpretation of it, though. Your milage may vary . . . and still be within the rules, at that. ;)
Sildatorak 09-20-06, 08:08 PM	Although, I guess for a comparable mechanic, I would allow a fighter to cleave off of, say, a trip attempt Unless your fighter does enough damage to trip him, you don't get the freebie attack. deal a creature enough damage to make it drop I agree about "drop" not being a well-defined rules term, I think the intent of cleave and other "drop" uses is probably restricted to a KO or a kill.
WhiteRaven810 09-20-06, 08:16 PM	Wasn't it errated or ruled or the equivilent that Tripping a foe would trigger the Cleave feat? If this is true and simply not a dream I may or may not have had, wouldn't the same logic apply to the Abyssal Maw and it's deal? So if I'm right, the answer may be both one and two. I want it doubly noted however that I cannot recall where I read that ruling.
Yak of Darkness 09-20-06, 08:33 PM	Unless your fighter does enough damage to trip him, you don't get the freebie attack.You're right there, that's my mistake. The Cleave feat does say that the "dropping" there has to be done through damage. I rescind my previous statement about it working off of a trip--that's not the way it works. I agree about "drop" not being a well-defined rules term, I think the intent of cleave and other "drop" uses is probably restricted to a KO or a kill.Except, again, the text of the Cleave feat, the very rules you quoted in your previous post, negates that interpretation (what an atypical way of doing enough damage to drop someone without KOing them or killing them is, I don't know, but the feat apparently allows for it :) ). And while damage does need to be involved in dropping someone in order for Cleave to be used, this: Does not imply that all "dropping" needs to involve direct damage. Is different from the way the Abyssal Maw's entry is phrased . . . "automatically deals an additional 2d8+4 points of damage to any foe it drops with a melee attack." The AM's ability actually reads looser than the Cleave feat, as the AM doesn't have the requirement of doing damage. But then, that just leads to discussion of what qualifies as a "melee attack" and arguments about what the "intent" of the rules are. The latter, especially, never goes anywhere*, though, so I'll bow out at this point. :) Aside from the fact that it's rare that anyone ever really knows what the designers' intent in making the rules is (and such arguments usually have people saying, "these are the Rules As Intended" when they seem to mean, "these are the Rules As I Think They Should Work"), sometimes we do know what they're thinking, and it still doesn't make sense. Like when writer Bruce Cordell was asked why the astral construct psionic power was changed (nerfed, really) in Complete Psionic . . . as many psi-fans saw no reason for the change. Bruce explained his intent behind the rules (citing two reasons that he considered problems with the power as written). His first problem (that a wilder character could use his class features to create more powerful constructs than should be in play at the level) was unchanged by the nerfing--wilders can still do this just as well. His second problem (that a character summoning multiple creatures takes too much time in combat) sounds ridiculous when you consider that Complete Psionic introduced new powers that can, or at least can be augmented to, summon multiple creatures in the same casting--something even astral construct could not do. So even when we do know what designer intent was, it doesn't always help things. :)
PhaedrusXY 09-21-06, 12:35 AM	I feel quite sure that they meant for it to work as 2, Rules Lawyer Arguments aside.
Talisman 09-22-06, 02:49 PM	From the SRD (my emphasis): MOUNTED COMBAT... ...If You Are Dropped: If you are knocked unconscious, you have a 50% chance to stay in the saddle (or 75% if you’re in a military saddle). Otherwise you fall and take 1d6 points of damage. I don't have my PHB handy, but I have always understood "dropped" to mean "rendered combat-ineffective due to damage", or rather "reduced below 0 hp". The few examples I have found in the SRD (the Cleave feat at the Mounted Combat section) seem to bear this out. However, as with nearly everything in D&D, it's subject to the "what the GM thinks best" rule.
ZeronHitaro 09-22-06, 03:58 PM	Just browsing over the brief bits of information, perhaps the mechanic could be fixed by substituting the word "drops" for "knocks prone"? Therefore only giving it that extra damage upon a successful trip attack. When I look at it from that context it makes more sence to me. Somehow I get the feeling the wording of "drops" was simply a writer working at 2am with weak coffee, creating a mix of vocabulary. XD
Talisman 09-27-06, 04:44 PM	However, when you're reduced below 0 hp I'm pretty sure you're knocked prone since you fall unconscious. This actually makes them more danagerous, rather than less.
ZeronHitaro 09-27-06, 09:21 PM	However, when you're reduced below 0 hp I'm pretty sure you're knocked prone since you fall unconscious. This actually makes them more danagerous, rather than less. Hmm, to me though it sounds more like falling below 0 HP would make you "helpless" rather than "prone".
Talisman 09-29-06, 02:48 PM	Are you saying that an unconscious, dying, helpless creature should not be considered prone?
ZeronHitaro 09-29-06, 10:48 PM	Are you saying that an unconscious, dying, helpless creature should not be considered prone? Yes. Because there is a fundamental different due to threat appearance. Allow me to elaborate. Which is more dangerous? A. A man with a gun who just tripped and fell. Or B. A man with a gun who is unconcious To compare this to helpless and prone along with Abyssal Maw, one can look at it from a matter of survival instinct. The Maw seems character A as a threat, goes in and trips them, knocking them prone. The Maw sences this weakness and acknowledges (even if just by pure instinct) that A is still a threat and in a rush of panic/adrenaline surges forward to assault the character for extra damage while prone. Conversely as in scenario B, the Maw attacks and character and takes them to -4 HP, possibly causing them to slip unconcious or something of the like. The Maw can tell this character no long has the ability to fight and therefore is not under the same motivation to place extra emphasis into it's attack, rather finishing it simply or focusing on the next immediate threat. To compare: Prone The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Helpless A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets. As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity. Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace. Emphasis mine, note that in description for helpless is says "as equivalent to attacking a prone target", not, "you are also prone". Hence backing up my thoughts on helpless and prone being two different scenarios.
Talisman 10-03-06, 07:54 PM	Granted. I acknowledge that prone and helpless are in no way the same condition, either in the real world or in D&D. My arguement is that the word "drops" in D&D refers to someone dropping to the ground--generally because they are rendered unconscious due to hit-point damage. A person who is rendered prone--whether because they are tripped, the deliberately fall to the ground, or they fall unconscious and collapse--can be said to drop. I further argue that (almost) any condition that rendered a character helpless also renders them prone. Note the "almost." Certain conditions, such as being paralyzed, render one helpless without rendering them prone. By simple logic, a character is rendered prone if they are affected by any of the following criteria (bizarre circumstances excepted): Unconscious (due to damage) Unconscious (due to other effects) Tripped Deliberately prone Therefore, unless the character in question is wearing a magical exoskeleton-suit, is of a strange shape such that they cannot be tripped (such as a delver) or is being held up by allies, a creature that is rendered unconscious due to hit point loss ought to be considered prone. While this is painful from a PC's point of view, it makes perfect sense from the abyssal maw's point of view...finish off the wounded so they don't get healed and come back to kill you. Even though the maw won't be thinking per se, its original breeders no doubt "programmed" this impulse into it.