Adamantine Horror: Overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adamantine Horror: Overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AnarchyMage
04-10-05, 05:44 PM The Adamantine Clockwork Horror, from the Monster Manual II, seems to be rather overpowered for a CR 9. I tried this out against my players recently, and found that the disjunction, disintegration, and implosion AT WILL quickly overwhelmed the party. The party consisted of a 9th level cleric, an 8th level druid, a 10th level archer ranger, a 10th level rogue, and a 9th level illusionist.

Might there be a suggestion as to how I may make this slightly more balanced? Also, my players use rather straightforward tactics: swing sword, cast spell, fire bow, repeat. Chances are that they are overlooking some tactic.
Vaalingrade Ashland
04-10-05, 07:49 PM Ignoring for a moment that one of its abilities is a spell that should be removed from the game entirely, the Adamantine horror is designed to be the capper for a longer sequence of batle against the clockwork horrors. Its CR is pretty much the one you should take into account when calculating the CR of the entire encounter.
urial angel of death
04-10-05, 08:17 PM Ignoring for a moment that one of its abilities is a spell that should be removed from the game entirely, the Adamantine horror is designed to be the capper for a longer sequence of batle against the clockwork horrors. Its CR is pretty much the one you should take into account when calculating the CR of the entire encounter.

which
BladeBoy
04-10-05, 09:31 PM Disjunction, I figure, no?
robertliguori
04-10-05, 09:32 PM Er, in case it was not made extremely clear: just as you are not supposed to send a lone goblin at the party and have it be a challenge, the adamantine horror is meant to be surrounded by a swarm of lesser horrors, bringing the CR up to the high teens.

Anyone who suggests multiple adamantine horrors together will be shot. In the face. With the Hammer of Thunderbolts.
AnarchyMage
04-11-05, 07:15 AM Er, in case it was not made extremely clear: just as you are not supposed to send a lone goblin at the party and have it be a challenge, the adamantine horror is meant to be surrounded by a swarm of lesser horrors, bringing the CR up to the high teens.

Ah, I see your point. I was running a series of adventurers where the goal of the party was to find the adamantine clockwork horror alone, to make it easier for assassination.

Anyone who suggests multiple adamantine horrors together will be shot. In the face. With the Hammer of Thunderbolts.

I realize that. Though I did experiment and see what would occur if I put multiple adamantines together. Total Party Kill quite quickly.
DM Zoc
04-11-05, 07:42 AM Er, in case it was not made extremely clear: just as you are not supposed to send a lone goblin at the party and have it be a challenge, the adamantine horror is meant to be surrounded by a swarm of lesser horrors, bringing the CR up to the high teens.

I disagree. If they call it a CR 9, then it should be able to be defeated by a party of level 10 characters. With those abilities at will, this thing is more like a CR 19.
Salla
04-12-05, 12:59 AM Looking over it closely ... that *has* to be an error. Too many HD, two 9th level SLAs, boatload of bonus feats ...
Vaalingrade Ashland
04-12-05, 02:05 AM At this point though, I think we can trust DMs not to rely solely on CR

Any DM the throws that at four level tens is full of lust -- lust for killing PCs.
PhaedrusXY
04-12-05, 02:24 AM Er, in case it was not made extremely clear: just as you are not supposed to send a lone goblin at the party and have it be a challenge, the adamantine horror is meant to be surrounded by a swarm of lesser horrors, bringing the CR up to the high teens.That doesn't modify the CR at all. It modifies the Encounter Level. Experience is based off Challenge Rating, not Encounter Level. So this means that an adamantine horror is supposed to not offer a challenge at all to a 17th level party, and they'd get no XP at all for it... despite the fact that it could destroy half their magic items with one spell, which the party wizard can barely cast.

I agree, the thing is waaaaay too strong for a CR9.
Slagger the Chuul
04-12-05, 04:11 AM Since its Organization line doesn't include "Solitary", it's definitely not designed to be encountered on its own. The CR 9 is only there for calculation purposes.
Ellendill
04-12-05, 10:56 PM Which would have to be its CR then? 13, 15 or 19? have errata?
It will be that it had error of impression?
Slagger the Chuul
04-13-05, 03:13 AM It would certainly be nice if they provided a total challenge rating for the groups of creatures they list on the Organization line.
BladeBoy
04-13-05, 04:13 PM isn't that what the encounter table is for in the DMG?
Insane Pixie
04-13-05, 04:18 PM isn't that what the encounter table is for in the DMG?

...or an encounter calculator.

Those things make everything easier.
Vaalingrade Ashland
04-13-05, 06:16 PM Which would have to be its CR then? 13, 15 or 19? have errata?
It will be that it had error of impression?
Encountered alone, and not part of an adventure, its easily a CR 17.
Slagger the Chuul
04-14-05, 01:43 AM isn't that what the encounter table is for in the DMG?

Which means another flick through a different book for information that could easily be included in the statistics block. They've got multiple groups on the Organization line, so why not put challenge ratings for each group on the Challnge Rating line?

Then you'd only have to use the encounter table for combining groups of unrelated monsters (those not grouped by organization).
Etiquette_Gnome
04-14-05, 02:36 AM So if it's meant to be fought with several friends around, wouldn't that make it even harder to fight? Adding more stuff to an already overly tough monster doesn't mean its CR should be lower. Stuff that's overly tough for its CR is supposed to be a solitary battle, preferably with some prior knowledge of encountering it; that's the explanation for dragons at least. Intending it to be an end-dungeon boss with lackeys around it doesn't make it weaker.

I can understand the idea that if you give it friends in a fight, the average level of the party required to fight it will be appropriately higher, but should you punish them this much? It provides more than a CR 9 challenge, just be existing (not even including environmental modifiers), therefore it should give more than a CR 9 amount of experience.
Slagger the Chuul
04-14-05, 10:04 AM It might be an idea to first find out what the approximate challenge rating of the clockwork horror group that it appears as part of should be.

It's something of a cannon, though. While it's got formidable attacks, its defences are pretty pitiful, for a big boss.
d_nychus
04-14-05, 10:43 AM It might be an idea to first find out what the approximate challenge rating of the clockwork horror group that it appears as part of should be.

First off, it's the approximate ENCOUNTER LEVEL of the group, not the CR.

Second, this is totally irrelevent to what the CR of the adamatine horror is. A CR is based on how tough a monster/NPC is in an average encounter for an average four person PC party.

Since the adamantine horror is a solitary creature, no other creatures should be a factor in any way, shape, or form.

It's something of a cannon, though. While it's got formidable attacks, its defences are pretty pitiful, for a big boss.

That definately should be a factor of the CR. It cannot be a CR 17, like the spells alone imply, but is definately too much for a CR 9. So, the question is, what number between SHOULD it be?
the shaderaven
04-14-05, 04:28 PM Well unless Im calculating the EL wrong these are the facts:
If we make the encounter with his minimal suggested assembly (1 platinium horror, 3 gold horrors, 5 electrum horrors) then it has an EL 12. It woulg give to a 12 lvl group 2700 XP. A single CR 12 creature will give to the same group 3600 XP. So this is supposed to be somewhat easier (although it is the same EL - it gives less XP) chalange that... lets say Kolyarut (the CR 12 Inevitable from MM I). Comparing the Kolyarut and the Addamantine Horrors it turns out that most of their properties are equal (SR, constructs, hp, AC...) so we are left comparing:
1)Darkvision 60 ft., DR 10/Chaotic, Fast Healing 5 for the Kolyarut against the Electricity Immunity and much better speed and initiative for the Horror.
I'll say they are about equal here. Slight advantage for the Kolyarut.
2)Vampiric touch, Enervation as suppernatural abilities and hold person, fear and some other spell likes at will (CL 13, DC 13 + SL) against Disintegrate, Implosion and Disjunction at will (CL 14, DC 14 + SL). Advantage for the... Disjunction.
3)About 10 other horrors messing around and zapping lightning bolts. Advantage for the Horrors.
So It turns that the Horror Encounter (Even the Adamantine Horror all by himself) is harder that the Kolyarut, but gives less XP. Why? Well Consider the following: Protection from Electricity and Shatter. The Adamantine Horror is intended to be the end boss of full of horrors anventure or even campaign not some random "You are walking through the woods and... an addamantine horror comes out!" encounter. By the time the PCs meet him they will surely got a protection from electricity running thus negating big part of the danger comming from his lesser companions. Advantage still for Mr.AH. But if they find about the horrors Shatter voulnerability (which they should if they are worth their character sheets)... If I am reading it correctly the Shatter spells ignores the SR of creatures (Spell Resistance: Yes (object)) so it all comes to surviving the time it takes go get in short spell range of him and start mauling him with shatters. With his Fort Save of +5... thats a lot of 1d4+1 rounds of blindness which stop him from targeting his spells.
So it generally comes to that if the PCs are prepaired or not. Similar to battling dragons. Yet... I thing it deserves a CR of at least 11.
Btw, with his full amount of companions it is EL 14, but gives the meager 1400 XP opposed to the 4200 XP from an EL 14 encounter consisting of one CD 14 creature.
Hammerhead
04-14-05, 08:20 PM How can it even cast implosion and Mordenkainen's disjunction if it only has caster level 14?
Slagger the Chuul
04-15-05, 01:24 AM It's a monster, and doesn't necessarily follow the same rules as characters if the designer decided otherwise. In this case, it means that its spell-like abilities have a slightly reduced range, and are a bit less effective than those of a typical caster.

Second, this is totally irrelevent to what the CR of the adamatine horror is. A CR is based on how tough a monster/NPC is in an average encounter for an average four person PC party.

Since the adamantine horror is a solitary creature, no other creatures should be a factor in any way, shape, or form.

It's not a solitary creature. The only organization for the adamantine horror (as listed on the Organization line) is with a pack of lesser horrors. The CR entry is only useful for calculating the difficulty of encountering it along with other horrors.
the shaderaven
04-15-05, 02:42 AM No, the CR is also used for calculating the XP reward for defeating him. And it is worth more than what CR 9 crature gives. And whats more - how exactly it is easyer to defeat when among other horrors? Their sheer number and linked mind ability make sure that this is damn hard to surprise or kill swiftly. 95% of the time it will have enough time to unload at least one disjunction and one implosion. A simple Disjunction trap with a proximity trgger is CR 10 and gives 6120 XP. This thing that has disjunction at will and thats only on top of all his other abilities is CR 9 and gives between 1200 and 700 XP for the group it is intended for. And it is almost 100% sure due to its abilities and companions that it will be able to launch at least one dijunction during the encaunter.
Slagger the Chuul
04-15-05, 11:26 AM A large part of a trap's challenge is that it's hidden.
Freefall
04-15-05, 09:43 PM It's a monster, and doesn't necessarily follow the same rules as characters if the designer decided otherwise. In this case, it means that its spell-like abilities have a slightly reduced range, and are a bit less effective than those of a typical caster.

It's not a solitary creature. The only organization for the adamantine horror (as listed on the Organization line) is with a pack of lesser horrors. The CR entry is only useful for calculating the difficulty of encountering it along with other horrors.

I don't think that's how CR is calculated though. I think it is based off of the hypothetical situation of a party of four characters, average for their level, fighting a single specimen (unless it is a swarm of course). Creatures that can summon other things have that power included in their CR, but then you don't gain XP for fighting the summoned things in those cases.

Anyway, even if they did account for the fact that it would always be surrounded by minions in its CR, it still doesn't make sense for it to be a 9. If the thing is too tough for a group of 9th level adventurers by itself, then it will be even tougher with a bunch of other horrors around. I mean, suppose trolls could only be encountered in the company of 5 ogres. Would that warrant a reduction in the trolls CR? Hardly. The troll itself wouldn't be any easier to defeat than it is now, and the ogres would just make it even harder. The idea of giving less XP for such an encounter is completely the opposite of how it is supposed to work.
Slagger the Chuul
04-16-05, 05:58 AM I mean, suppose trolls could only be encountered in the company of 5 ogres. Would that warrant a reduction in the trolls CR? Hardly. The troll itself wouldn't be any easier to defeat than it is now, and the ogres would just make it even harder. The idea of giving less XP for such an encounter is completely the opposite of how it is supposed to work.

By the level that you're fighting the larger group at, you'll probably have an easier time mincing the individuals. If the troll was only ever encountered at levels where it was easy to beat, wouldn't that make it less of a challenge?
Freefall
04-16-05, 04:16 PM By the level that you're fighting the larger group at, you'll probably have an easier time mincing the individuals. If the troll was only ever encountered at levels where it was easy to beat, wouldn't that make it less of a challenge?

Yes, in a sense, but that's why player groups with an average level higher than the monster's CR receive less experience. You don't need to reduce its CR on top of that. CR 5 troll against a group of 9th level adventurers isn't much of a challenge, and that's why he wouldn't give them that much experience. If he were put in an organization that didn't make him realistically beatable until about level 8, that still doesn't mean that his CR should be reduced in addition to the lower amount of XP you get for fighting a low CR monster anyway.

Anyway, again, I don't think the organization is taken into account with the CR. CR is basically they just think, "Okay, for this monster, what level would a group of 4 average-ish adventurers need to be to get a little roughed up but overall still have an excellent chance of winning." For the Adamantine Horror, this level was set at 9. The reason people are saying this is wrong is because against 9th level characters it can destroy all their magic items and implode the wizard pretty easily, or start disintegrating people. It's well beyond a CR 9. The organization listing means that its minimum encounter level will be higher than its CR, so yes the adventurers should then be a higher level than its CR and it alone would provide less of a challenge, but again, this is why the CR tables give less XP for higher level characters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AnarchyMage 04-10-05, 05:44 PM	The Adamantine Clockwork Horror, from the Monster Manual II, seems to be rather overpowered for a CR 9. I tried this out against my players recently, and found that the disjunction, disintegration, and implosion AT WILL quickly overwhelmed the party. The party consisted of a 9th level cleric, an 8th level druid, a 10th level archer ranger, a 10th level rogue, and a 9th level illusionist. Might there be a suggestion as to how I may make this slightly more balanced? Also, my players use rather straightforward tactics: swing sword, cast spell, fire bow, repeat. Chances are that they are overlooking some tactic.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-10-05, 07:49 PM	Ignoring for a moment that one of its abilities is a spell that should be removed from the game entirely, the Adamantine horror is designed to be the capper for a longer sequence of batle against the clockwork horrors. Its CR is pretty much the one you should take into account when calculating the CR of the entire encounter.
urial angel of death 04-10-05, 08:17 PM	Ignoring for a moment that one of its abilities is a spell that should be removed from the game entirely, the Adamantine horror is designed to be the capper for a longer sequence of batle against the clockwork horrors. Its CR is pretty much the one you should take into account when calculating the CR of the entire encounter. which
BladeBoy 04-10-05, 09:31 PM	Disjunction, I figure, no?
robertliguori 04-10-05, 09:32 PM	Er, in case it was not made extremely clear: just as you are not supposed to send a lone goblin at the party and have it be a challenge, the adamantine horror is meant to be surrounded by a swarm of lesser horrors, bringing the CR up to the high teens. Anyone who suggests multiple adamantine horrors together will be shot. In the face. With the Hammer of Thunderbolts.
AnarchyMage 04-11-05, 07:15 AM	Er, in case it was not made extremely clear: just as you are not supposed to send a lone goblin at the party and have it be a challenge, the adamantine horror is meant to be surrounded by a swarm of lesser horrors, bringing the CR up to the high teens. Ah, I see your point. I was running a series of adventurers where the goal of the party was to find the adamantine clockwork horror alone, to make it easier for assassination. Anyone who suggests multiple adamantine horrors together will be shot. In the face. With the Hammer of Thunderbolts. I realize that. Though I did experiment and see what would occur if I put multiple adamantines together. Total Party Kill quite quickly.
DM Zoc 04-11-05, 07:42 AM	Er, in case it was not made extremely clear: just as you are not supposed to send a lone goblin at the party and have it be a challenge, the adamantine horror is meant to be surrounded by a swarm of lesser horrors, bringing the CR up to the high teens. I disagree. If they call it a CR 9, then it should be able to be defeated by a party of level 10 characters. With those abilities at will, this thing is more like a CR 19.
Salla 04-12-05, 12:59 AM	Looking over it closely ... that has to be an error. Too many HD, two 9th level SLAs, boatload of bonus feats ...
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-12-05, 02:05 AM	At this point though, I think we can trust DMs not to rely solely on CR Any DM the throws that at four level tens is full of lust -- lust for killing PCs.
PhaedrusXY 04-12-05, 02:24 AM	Er, in case it was not made extremely clear: just as you are not supposed to send a lone goblin at the party and have it be a challenge, the adamantine horror is meant to be surrounded by a swarm of lesser horrors, bringing the CR up to the high teens.That doesn't modify the CR at all. It modifies the Encounter Level. Experience is based off Challenge Rating, not Encounter Level. So this means that an adamantine horror is supposed to not offer a challenge at all to a 17th level party, and they'd get no XP at all for it... despite the fact that it could destroy half their magic items with one spell, which the party wizard can barely cast. I agree, the thing is waaaaay too strong for a CR9.
Slagger the Chuul 04-12-05, 04:11 AM	Since its Organization line doesn't include "Solitary", it's definitely not designed to be encountered on its own. The CR 9 is only there for calculation purposes.
Ellendill 04-12-05, 10:56 PM	Which would have to be its CR then? 13, 15 or 19? have errata? It will be that it had error of impression?
Slagger the Chuul 04-13-05, 03:13 AM	It would certainly be nice if they provided a total challenge rating for the groups of creatures they list on the Organization line.
BladeBoy 04-13-05, 04:13 PM	isn't that what the encounter table is for in the DMG?
Insane Pixie 04-13-05, 04:18 PM	isn't that what the encounter table is for in the DMG? ...or an encounter calculator. Those things make everything easier.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-13-05, 06:16 PM	Which would have to be its CR then? 13, 15 or 19? have errata? It will be that it had error of impression? Encountered alone, and not part of an adventure, its easily a CR 17.
Slagger the Chuul 04-14-05, 01:43 AM	isn't that what the encounter table is for in the DMG? Which means another flick through a different book for information that could easily be included in the statistics block. They've got multiple groups on the Organization line, so why not put challenge ratings for each group on the Challnge Rating line? Then you'd only have to use the encounter table for combining groups of unrelated monsters (those not grouped by organization).
Etiquette_Gnome 04-14-05, 02:36 AM	So if it's meant to be fought with several friends around, wouldn't that make it even harder to fight? Adding more stuff to an already overly tough monster doesn't mean its CR should be lower. Stuff that's overly tough for its CR is supposed to be a solitary battle, preferably with some prior knowledge of encountering it; that's the explanation for dragons at least. Intending it to be an end-dungeon boss with lackeys around it doesn't make it weaker. I can understand the idea that if you give it friends in a fight, the average level of the party required to fight it will be appropriately higher, but should you punish them this much? It provides more than a CR 9 challenge, just be existing (not even including environmental modifiers), therefore it should give more than a CR 9 amount of experience.
Slagger the Chuul 04-14-05, 10:04 AM	It might be an idea to first find out what the approximate challenge rating of the clockwork horror group that it appears as part of should be. It's something of a cannon, though. While it's got formidable attacks, its defences are pretty pitiful, for a big boss.
d_nychus 04-14-05, 10:43 AM	It might be an idea to first find out what the approximate challenge rating of the clockwork horror group that it appears as part of should be. First off, it's the approximate ENCOUNTER LEVEL of the group, not the CR. Second, this is totally irrelevent to what the CR of the adamatine horror is. A CR is based on how tough a monster/NPC is in an average encounter for an average four person PC party. Since the adamantine horror is a solitary creature, no other creatures should be a factor in any way, shape, or form. It's something of a cannon, though. While it's got formidable attacks, its defences are pretty pitiful, for a big boss. That definately should be a factor of the CR. It cannot be a CR 17, like the spells alone imply, but is definately too much for a CR 9. So, the question is, what number between SHOULD it be?
the shaderaven 04-14-05, 04:28 PM	Well unless Im calculating the EL wrong these are the facts: If we make the encounter with his minimal suggested assembly (1 platinium horror, 3 gold horrors, 5 electrum horrors) then it has an EL 12. It woulg give to a 12 lvl group 2700 XP. A single CR 12 creature will give to the same group 3600 XP. So this is supposed to be somewhat easier (although it is the same EL - it gives less XP) chalange that... lets say Kolyarut (the CR 12 Inevitable from MM I). Comparing the Kolyarut and the Addamantine Horrors it turns out that most of their properties are equal (SR, constructs, hp, AC...) so we are left comparing: 1)Darkvision 60 ft., DR 10/Chaotic, Fast Healing 5 for the Kolyarut against the Electricity Immunity and much better speed and initiative for the Horror. I'll say they are about equal here. Slight advantage for the Kolyarut. 2)Vampiric touch, Enervation as suppernatural abilities and hold person, fear and some other spell likes at will (CL 13, DC 13 + SL) against Disintegrate, Implosion and Disjunction at will (CL 14, DC 14 + SL). Advantage for the... Disjunction. 3)About 10 other horrors messing around and zapping lightning bolts. Advantage for the Horrors. So It turns that the Horror Encounter (Even the Adamantine Horror all by himself) is harder that the Kolyarut, but gives less XP. Why? Well Consider the following: Protection from Electricity and Shatter. The Adamantine Horror is intended to be the end boss of full of horrors anventure or even campaign not some random "You are walking through the woods and... an addamantine horror comes out!" encounter. By the time the PCs meet him they will surely got a protection from electricity running thus negating big part of the danger comming from his lesser companions. Advantage still for Mr.AH. But if they find about the horrors Shatter voulnerability (which they should if they are worth their character sheets)... If I am reading it correctly the Shatter spells ignores the SR of creatures (Spell Resistance: Yes (object)) so it all comes to surviving the time it takes go get in short spell range of him and start mauling him with shatters. With his Fort Save of +5... thats a lot of 1d4+1 rounds of blindness which stop him from targeting his spells. So it generally comes to that if the PCs are prepaired or not. Similar to battling dragons. Yet... I thing it deserves a CR of at least 11. Btw, with his full amount of companions it is EL 14, but gives the meager 1400 XP opposed to the 4200 XP from an EL 14 encounter consisting of one CD 14 creature.
Hammerhead 04-14-05, 08:20 PM	How can it even cast implosion and Mordenkainen's disjunction if it only has caster level 14?
Slagger the Chuul 04-15-05, 01:24 AM	It's a monster, and doesn't necessarily follow the same rules as characters if the designer decided otherwise. In this case, it means that its spell-like abilities have a slightly reduced range, and are a bit less effective than those of a typical caster. Second, this is totally irrelevent to what the CR of the adamatine horror is. A CR is based on how tough a monster/NPC is in an average encounter for an average four person PC party. Since the adamantine horror is a solitary creature, no other creatures should be a factor in any way, shape, or form. It's not a solitary creature. The only organization for the adamantine horror (as listed on the Organization line) is with a pack of lesser horrors. The CR entry is only useful for calculating the difficulty of encountering it along with other horrors.
the shaderaven 04-15-05, 02:42 AM	No, the CR is also used for calculating the XP reward for defeating him. And it is worth more than what CR 9 crature gives. And whats more - how exactly it is easyer to defeat when among other horrors? Their sheer number and linked mind ability make sure that this is damn hard to surprise or kill swiftly. 95% of the time it will have enough time to unload at least one disjunction and one implosion. A simple Disjunction trap with a proximity trgger is CR 10 and gives 6120 XP. This thing that has disjunction at will and thats only on top of all his other abilities is CR 9 and gives between 1200 and 700 XP for the group it is intended for. And it is almost 100% sure due to its abilities and companions that it will be able to launch at least one dijunction during the encaunter.
Slagger the Chuul 04-15-05, 11:26 AM	A large part of a trap's challenge is that it's hidden.
Freefall 04-15-05, 09:43 PM	It's a monster, and doesn't necessarily follow the same rules as characters if the designer decided otherwise. In this case, it means that its spell-like abilities have a slightly reduced range, and are a bit less effective than those of a typical caster. It's not a solitary creature. The only organization for the adamantine horror (as listed on the Organization line) is with a pack of lesser horrors. The CR entry is only useful for calculating the difficulty of encountering it along with other horrors. I don't think that's how CR is calculated though. I think it is based off of the hypothetical situation of a party of four characters, average for their level, fighting a single specimen (unless it is a swarm of course). Creatures that can summon other things have that power included in their CR, but then you don't gain XP for fighting the summoned things in those cases. Anyway, even if they did account for the fact that it would always be surrounded by minions in its CR, it still doesn't make sense for it to be a 9. If the thing is too tough for a group of 9th level adventurers by itself, then it will be even tougher with a bunch of other horrors around. I mean, suppose trolls could only be encountered in the company of 5 ogres. Would that warrant a reduction in the trolls CR? Hardly. The troll itself wouldn't be any easier to defeat than it is now, and the ogres would just make it even harder. The idea of giving less XP for such an encounter is completely the opposite of how it is supposed to work.
Slagger the Chuul 04-16-05, 05:58 AM	I mean, suppose trolls could only be encountered in the company of 5 ogres. Would that warrant a reduction in the trolls CR? Hardly. The troll itself wouldn't be any easier to defeat than it is now, and the ogres would just make it even harder. The idea of giving less XP for such an encounter is completely the opposite of how it is supposed to work. By the level that you're fighting the larger group at, you'll probably have an easier time mincing the individuals. If the troll was only ever encountered at levels where it was easy to beat, wouldn't that make it less of a challenge?
Freefall 04-16-05, 04:16 PM	By the level that you're fighting the larger group at, you'll probably have an easier time mincing the individuals. If the troll was only ever encountered at levels where it was easy to beat, wouldn't that make it less of a challenge? Yes, in a sense, but that's why player groups with an average level higher than the monster's CR receive less experience. You don't need to reduce its CR on top of that. CR 5 troll against a group of 9th level adventurers isn't much of a challenge, and that's why he wouldn't give them that much experience. If he were put in an organization that didn't make him realistically beatable until about level 8, that still doesn't mean that his CR should be reduced in addition to the lower amount of XP you get for fighting a low CR monster anyway. Anyway, again, I don't think the organization is taken into account with the CR. CR is basically they just think, "Okay, for this monster, what level would a group of 4 average-ish adventurers need to be to get a little roughed up but overall still have an excellent chance of winning." For the Adamantine Horror, this level was set at 9. The reason people are saying this is wrong is because against 9th level characters it can destroy all their magic items and implode the wizard pretty easily, or start disintegrating people. It's well beyond a CR 9. The organization listing means that its minimum encounter level will be higher than its CR, so yes the adventurers should then be a higher level than its CR and it alone would provide less of a challenge, but again, this is why the CR tables give less XP for higher level characters.