Adamantine + Rust Monster = ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adamantine + Rust Monster = ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord_Varos
03-11-07, 11:57 PM If, say, an adventurer wearing adamantine full plate (let's overlook the cost in comparison to the challenge rating) were to invade a dungeon containing a couple rust monsters, should the so-equipped adventurer be worried? That is, are adamantine armor and weapons subject to the rusting power of a rust monster?
It doesn't state in the description of adamantine or the rust monster, but the Rusting Grasp spell (which is, admittedly, wildly different from the rust attack) only targets iron or iron-alloy metal.
wonlee76
03-12-07, 12:00 AM Rust (Ex): A rust monster that makes a successful touch attack with its antennae causes the target metal to corrode, falling to pieces and becoming useless immediately. The touch can destroy up to a 10-foot cube of metal instantly. Magic armor and weapons, and other magic items made of metal, must succeed on a DC 17 Reflex save or be dissolved. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.

A metal weapon that deals damage to a rust monster corrodes immediately. Wooden, stone, and other nonmetallic weapons are unaffected.

Simple answer: Adamantite is metal and nothing in the adamantite description implies its rust proof. Therefore, adamantite gets destroyed like any other metal item.
Lord_Varos
03-12-07, 12:06 AM It just seems strange that the supernaturally-hard metal, with unbreakability so great that it provides damage reduction /-, which also contains nothing to rust chemically, could fall as easily to a rust attack as iron could.
wonlee76
03-12-07, 12:14 AM Adamantite is not "unbreakable". You're getting your concept confused with comic books (Wolverine's skeleton and Captain America's shield). Adamantite in D&D terminology is just super hard metal. It has a hardness rating and adamantite weapons can ignore hardness (up to a certain point) so it is better than regular metal but its not indestructible. It just has more HP, higher hardness, and a special trait to bypass hardness of other items than regular steel.
420
03-12-07, 12:43 PM Adamantite is not "unbreakable". You're getting your concept confused with comic books (Wolverine's skeleton and Captain America's shield). Adamantite in D&D terminology is just super hard metal.
Close but not quite, the metal from the comic books is "Adamantium" and, while Wolverines skeleton is made from "Pure Adamantium", Captain America's shield is made out of "True Adamantium" that is Adamantium mixed with Vibranium through an unknown process similar to cold fusion. (ie Capt. America's shield is one-of-a-kind and cannot be reproduced.)

Here are the definitions (from Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9535.zip)) of the D&D metal Adamantine and the ore from which it is derived, Adamantite:

Adamant: This is the pure metal form of the hard, jet-black ferromagnetic ore known as adamantite, from which the famous alloy adamantine is made.Adamant is rarely found in nature, but when it is, it is always be in large spherical pockets in hardened volcanic flows.

Adamant is one of the hardest substances known on Toril, but it is also brittle. A sword made of adamant could slice through most metals—but would snap off if struck by another blade or even a smartly wielded wooden cudgel.

Adamantine: This alloy, of five-eighths adamant to two-eighths silver and one-eighth electrum (itself a natural alloy of silver and gold) retains the hardness of adamant, but combines it with a rugged durability that makes adamantine so hard to shatter that it is the favored substance for the making of war hammer heads, the best nonmithral armor, and harbor chains.

Of course, that really doesn't answer the question of whether it is subject to rust or not.

-420
unfortunate_crow
03-12-07, 01:01 PM Yes it does. No iron, no rust. Corrosion probably, like any other metal, but rust, no.
Shadowmind64
03-12-07, 01:26 PM One way of looking at it is Adamantine as the equivalent of steel, and mithral as titanium. Steel is a good deal harder than iron, whereas titanium is lighter than both. I know that this isnt RAW or anything of the sort, but if you want an alternative method of looking at it, there you go.

So yes, rust monsters can destroy any metal. warforged beware.
El_Machinae
03-12-07, 02:34 PM Yes, the warrior should replace his armour with wooden or stone armour.
Brightmatter
03-12-07, 02:38 PM Rust vs. Oxidation and Corrosion:

Rust is a term used for ferrous materials when they oxidize. Rust is not a term used for say the oxidation on nickel, copper, lead, platinum, aluminum, etc… So to be clear, corrosion of ferrous materials can be called rust, oxidation or corrosion and all other metals are referred to as only oxidation and corrosion.
unfortunate_crow
03-12-07, 05:16 PM Rust vs. Oxidation and Corrosion:

Rust is a term used for ferrous materials when they oxidize. Rust is not a term used for say the oxidation on nickel, copper, lead, platinum, aluminum, etc… So to be clear, corrosion of ferrous materials can be called rust, oxidation or corrosion and all other metals are referred to as only oxidation and corrosion.

Correct.

Basically, in D&D steel is the baseline that most weapons are made of. Adamantine, and Mithral are purely fictitious, and can't really be compared to any metals that we know of today.

If I had to make a guess, I would equate Adamantine to something like Tungsten, which by itself is very hard, but unsuitable for things like weapons and armor. That it is described as an alloy of itself and "soft" metals gives this impression, regardless of any "real-life" metallurgy data that would tell us this doesn't work.

Mithral is even "worse". Titanium is a poor analogy, as titanium in it's natural form is too soft for things like weapons or armor. Most titanium used nowadays is used because of it's lightweight properties (for things like aircraft), and is actually an alloy of aluminum. it would in no way equate to being as hard as steel but half as light.

As for the monster, the description says it will eat precious metals (though prefers ferrous metals), and it says it causes the metal to corrode (not "rust" specifically". As even very very highly corrosion resistant metals like chromium still corrode, for simplicity purposes I would say Adamantine and Mithral are just as susceptible as other metal weaponry to the Rust Monster's attack.

In the end though, it is up to the DM, since both are basically "fantasy" metals.
mvincent
03-12-07, 05:56 PM Rust monsters can destroy adamantine.

The fact that adamant is ferromagnetic indicates that it could well be as susceptible to rust as normal iron. However, that doesn't even matter in the case of a rust monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rustMonster.htm) as:
"It prefers ferrous metals (steel or iron) over precious metals (such as gold or silver) but will devour the latter if given the opportunity"

(note: that Gold or silver doesn't normally rust.)

I believe that a rust monster would prefer Adamantine over gold or silver, however all are susceptible to it's rust attack:
"its antennae causes the target metal to corrode"
"Wooden, stone, and other nonmetallic weapons are unaffected."
LivingShadow
03-12-07, 06:04 PM However Rust monsters prefer ferrous metals and would choose iron over adamantine if given a choice.
mvincent
03-12-07, 06:17 PM However Rust monsters prefer ferrous metals and would choose iron over adamantine if given a choice.I believe that adamantine might be considered ferrous (since it is ferromagnetic according to the above fluff text). However, I agree that pure iron would still be considered more attractive to a rust monster (as it is more ferrous).
LivingShadow
03-13-07, 11:13 AM Adamantine: This alloy, of five-eighths adamant to two-eighths silver and one-eighth electrum (itself a natural alloy of silver and gold) retains the hardness of adamant, but combines it with a rugged durability that makes adamantine so hard to shatter that it is the favored substance for the making of war hammer heads, the best nonmithral armor, and harbor chains.

According to this there is no iron in adamantine. The rust monster could still rust and eat it, but as we both said it would perfer more ferrous metals first.
Thiez
03-13-07, 11:21 AM summary:
Adamantine + Rust Monster = Expensive
qwerty1
03-13-07, 12:24 PM Ferromagnetic ore eh?

A Ferrous(sp?) Metal is one with "IRON" in it.

So it seems because of geology Adamantine should react to the Rust Monster.
Selgard
03-13-07, 12:30 PM This is, unfortunately, a case of a narrowly defined monster name coupled with a very broad ability.
"Rust Monster" should not be used as a term to narrowly construe what the critter can or can not eat. It is simply a descriptive term for the general effect of the creature.

As wonlee76 quoted, Any METAL item is affected. Period. There are no exceptions given.

Therefore, the composition of any given metal is irrelevant. There is only one question: Is this item made of metal? If yes: then the Monster can dissolve it. If the answer is no, then it can not.

Adamantine is, unfortunately, a Metal.
mvincent
03-13-07, 12:36 PM According to this there is no iron in adamantine. It says adamantine is "five-eighths adamant", and the section above what you quoted says that adamant is made from "ferromagnetic" adamantite ore.

"Ferromagnetic" implies that it likely contains iron or is very iron-like (ironic? ; ).
qwerty1
03-13-07, 12:38 PM Funny "Iron-ic".
Nice one mvincent.:D
mvincent
03-13-07, 12:41 PM the composition of any given metal is irrelevant. There is only one question: Is this item made of metal? If yes: then the Monster can dissolve it.Correct (as noted earlier). Note though: this conversation is still useful in regard to the Rusting Grasp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rustingGrasp.htm) spell.
LivingShadow
03-13-07, 01:13 PM "Ferromagnetic" implies that it likely contains iron or is very iron-like

According to the dictionary I happen to have.

ferromagnetic-adj-Designating a material, as iron, nickle, or cobolt, having a high magnetic permeability which varies with the magnetizing force.

As such it doesn't have to contain iron it just has to be able to be magnetized. The rust monsters would still go for other stuff first.

summary:
Adamantine + Rust Monster = Expensive

Exactly.
mvincent
03-13-07, 01:30 PM According to the dictionary I happen to have.Hmm. The dictionary I used said:
"fer·ro·mag·net·ic (fěr'ō-māg-nět'ĭk)
adj. Of or characteristic of substances that are particularly tasty to a rust monster"

The rust monsters would still go for other stuff first.Yup. That's what I was saying earlier.
LivingShadow
03-13-07, 01:33 PM To sum it up:

A rust monster could eat/rust/oxidize adamantine, however it would go after iron based metals first.
mvincent
03-13-07, 01:41 PM To sum it up:

A rust monster could eat/rust/oxidize adamantine, however it would go after iron based metals first.Yup.

So...

Is adamantine affected by the Rusting Grasp spell?
(ok, ok... I'll start a different thread for this... here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11753808))
Gnarl
03-13-07, 03:50 PM Science and D&D usually contradict each other...

Adamantine is a metal (DM page 284), rust monsters destroy metal (MM page 216).

What else is there to say?, other than rust monsters are a wicked trick to play on the PCs.
Dragonteuthis
03-13-07, 05:08 PM Rust Monsters are indeed a wicked trick to play on PCs. They are no fun.

Hence I like the idea of remaking it, as noted here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060714a)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Varos 03-11-07, 11:57 PM	If, say, an adventurer wearing adamantine full plate (let's overlook the cost in comparison to the challenge rating) were to invade a dungeon containing a couple rust monsters, should the so-equipped adventurer be worried? That is, are adamantine armor and weapons subject to the rusting power of a rust monster? It doesn't state in the description of adamantine or the rust monster, but the Rusting Grasp spell (which is, admittedly, wildly different from the rust attack) only targets iron or iron-alloy metal.
wonlee76 03-12-07, 12:00 AM	Rust (Ex): A rust monster that makes a successful touch attack with its antennae causes the target metal to corrode, falling to pieces and becoming useless immediately. The touch can destroy up to a 10-foot cube of metal instantly. Magic armor and weapons, and other magic items made of metal, must succeed on a DC 17 Reflex save or be dissolved. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus. A metal weapon that deals damage to a rust monster corrodes immediately. Wooden, stone, and other nonmetallic weapons are unaffected. Simple answer: Adamantite is metal and nothing in the adamantite description implies its rust proof. Therefore, adamantite gets destroyed like any other metal item.
Lord_Varos 03-12-07, 12:06 AM	It just seems strange that the supernaturally-hard metal, with unbreakability so great that it provides damage reduction /-, which also contains nothing to rust chemically, could fall as easily to a rust attack as iron could.
wonlee76 03-12-07, 12:14 AM	Adamantite is not "unbreakable". You're getting your concept confused with comic books (Wolverine's skeleton and Captain America's shield). Adamantite in D&D terminology is just super hard metal. It has a hardness rating and adamantite weapons can ignore hardness (up to a certain point) so it is better than regular metal but its not indestructible. It just has more HP, higher hardness, and a special trait to bypass hardness of other items than regular steel.
420 03-12-07, 12:43 PM	Adamantite is not "unbreakable". You're getting your concept confused with comic books (Wolverine's skeleton and Captain America's shield). Adamantite in D&D terminology is just super hard metal. Close but not quite, the metal from the comic books is "Adamantium" and, while Wolverines skeleton is made from "Pure Adamantium", Captain America's shield is made out of "True Adamantium" that is Adamantium mixed with Vibranium through an unknown process similar to cold fusion. (ie Capt. America's shield is one-of-a-kind and cannot be reproduced.) Here are the definitions (from Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/2/fr_downloads/tsr9535.zip)) of the D&D metal Adamantine and the ore from which it is derived, Adamantite: Adamant: This is the pure metal form of the hard, jet-black ferromagnetic ore known as adamantite, from which the famous alloy adamantine is made.Adamant is rarely found in nature, but when it is, it is always be in large spherical pockets in hardened volcanic flows. Adamant is one of the hardest substances known on Toril, but it is also brittle. A sword made of adamant could slice through most metals—but would snap off if struck by another blade or even a smartly wielded wooden cudgel. Adamantine: This alloy, of five-eighths adamant to two-eighths silver and one-eighth electrum (itself a natural alloy of silver and gold) retains the hardness of adamant, but combines it with a rugged durability that makes adamantine so hard to shatter that it is the favored substance for the making of war hammer heads, the best nonmithral armor, and harbor chains. Of course, that really doesn't answer the question of whether it is subject to rust or not. -420
unfortunate_crow 03-12-07, 01:01 PM	Yes it does. No iron, no rust. Corrosion probably, like any other metal, but rust, no.
Shadowmind64 03-12-07, 01:26 PM	One way of looking at it is Adamantine as the equivalent of steel, and mithral as titanium. Steel is a good deal harder than iron, whereas titanium is lighter than both. I know that this isnt RAW or anything of the sort, but if you want an alternative method of looking at it, there you go. So yes, rust monsters can destroy any metal. warforged beware.
El_Machinae 03-12-07, 02:34 PM	Yes, the warrior should replace his armour with wooden or stone armour.
Brightmatter 03-12-07, 02:38 PM	Rust vs. Oxidation and Corrosion: Rust is a term used for ferrous materials when they oxidize. Rust is not a term used for say the oxidation on nickel, copper, lead, platinum, aluminum, etc… So to be clear, corrosion of ferrous materials can be called rust, oxidation or corrosion and all other metals are referred to as only oxidation and corrosion.
unfortunate_crow 03-12-07, 05:16 PM	Rust vs. Oxidation and Corrosion: Rust is a term used for ferrous materials when they oxidize. Rust is not a term used for say the oxidation on nickel, copper, lead, platinum, aluminum, etc… So to be clear, corrosion of ferrous materials can be called rust, oxidation or corrosion and all other metals are referred to as only oxidation and corrosion. Correct. Basically, in D&D steel is the baseline that most weapons are made of. Adamantine, and Mithral are purely fictitious, and can't really be compared to any metals that we know of today. If I had to make a guess, I would equate Adamantine to something like Tungsten, which by itself is very hard, but unsuitable for things like weapons and armor. That it is described as an alloy of itself and "soft" metals gives this impression, regardless of any "real-life" metallurgy data that would tell us this doesn't work. Mithral is even "worse". Titanium is a poor analogy, as titanium in it's natural form is too soft for things like weapons or armor. Most titanium used nowadays is used because of it's lightweight properties (for things like aircraft), and is actually an alloy of aluminum. it would in no way equate to being as hard as steel but half as light. As for the monster, the description says it will eat precious metals (though prefers ferrous metals), and it says it causes the metal to corrode (not "rust" specifically". As even very very highly corrosion resistant metals like chromium still corrode, for simplicity purposes I would say Adamantine and Mithral are just as susceptible as other metal weaponry to the Rust Monster's attack. In the end though, it is up to the DM, since both are basically "fantasy" metals.
mvincent 03-12-07, 05:56 PM	Rust monsters can destroy adamantine. The fact that adamant is ferromagnetic indicates that it could well be as susceptible to rust as normal iron. However, that doesn't even matter in the case of a rust monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rustMonster.htm) as: "It prefers ferrous metals (steel or iron) over precious metals (such as gold or silver) but will devour the latter if given the opportunity" (note: that Gold or silver doesn't normally rust.) I believe that a rust monster would prefer Adamantine over gold or silver, however all are susceptible to it's rust attack: "its antennae causes the target metal to corrode" "Wooden, stone, and other nonmetallic weapons are unaffected."
LivingShadow 03-12-07, 06:04 PM	However Rust monsters prefer ferrous metals and would choose iron over adamantine if given a choice.
mvincent 03-12-07, 06:17 PM	However Rust monsters prefer ferrous metals and would choose iron over adamantine if given a choice.I believe that adamantine might be considered ferrous (since it is ferromagnetic according to the above fluff text). However, I agree that pure iron would still be considered more attractive to a rust monster (as it is more ferrous).
LivingShadow 03-13-07, 11:13 AM	Adamantine: This alloy, of five-eighths adamant to two-eighths silver and one-eighth electrum (itself a natural alloy of silver and gold) retains the hardness of adamant, but combines it with a rugged durability that makes adamantine so hard to shatter that it is the favored substance for the making of war hammer heads, the best nonmithral armor, and harbor chains. According to this there is no iron in adamantine. The rust monster could still rust and eat it, but as we both said it would perfer more ferrous metals first.
Thiez 03-13-07, 11:21 AM	summary: Adamantine + Rust Monster = Expensive
qwerty1 03-13-07, 12:24 PM	Ferromagnetic ore eh? A Ferrous(sp?) Metal is one with "IRON" in it. So it seems because of geology Adamantine should react to the Rust Monster.
Selgard 03-13-07, 12:30 PM	This is, unfortunately, a case of a narrowly defined monster name coupled with a very broad ability. "Rust Monster" should not be used as a term to narrowly construe what the critter can or can not eat. It is simply a descriptive term for the general effect of the creature. As wonlee76 quoted, Any METAL item is affected. Period. There are no exceptions given. Therefore, the composition of any given metal is irrelevant. There is only one question: Is this item made of metal? If yes: then the Monster can dissolve it. If the answer is no, then it can not. Adamantine is, unfortunately, a Metal.
mvincent 03-13-07, 12:36 PM	According to this there is no iron in adamantine. It says adamantine is "five-eighths adamant", and the section above what you quoted says that adamant is made from "ferromagnetic" adamantite ore. "Ferromagnetic" implies that it likely contains iron or is very iron-like (ironic? ; ).
qwerty1 03-13-07, 12:38 PM	Funny "Iron-ic". Nice one mvincent.:D
mvincent 03-13-07, 12:41 PM	the composition of any given metal is irrelevant. There is only one question: Is this item made of metal? If yes: then the Monster can dissolve it.Correct (as noted earlier). Note though: this conversation is still useful in regard to the Rusting Grasp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rustingGrasp.htm) spell.
LivingShadow 03-13-07, 01:13 PM	"Ferromagnetic" implies that it likely contains iron or is very iron-like According to the dictionary I happen to have. ferromagnetic-adj-Designating a material, as iron, nickle, or cobolt, having a high magnetic permeability which varies with the magnetizing force. As such it doesn't have to contain iron it just has to be able to be magnetized. The rust monsters would still go for other stuff first. summary: Adamantine + Rust Monster = Expensive Exactly.
mvincent 03-13-07, 01:30 PM	According to the dictionary I happen to have.Hmm. The dictionary I used said: "fer·ro·mag·net·ic (fěr'ō-māg-nět'ĭk) adj. Of or characteristic of substances that are particularly tasty to a rust monster" The rust monsters would still go for other stuff first.Yup. That's what I was saying earlier.
LivingShadow 03-13-07, 01:33 PM	To sum it up: A rust monster could eat/rust/oxidize adamantine, however it would go after iron based metals first.
mvincent 03-13-07, 01:41 PM	To sum it up: A rust monster could eat/rust/oxidize adamantine, however it would go after iron based metals first.Yup. So... Is adamantine affected by the Rusting Grasp spell? (ok, ok... I'll start a different thread for this... here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11753808))
Gnarl 03-13-07, 03:50 PM	Science and D&D usually contradict each other... Adamantine is a metal (DM page 284), rust monsters destroy metal (MM page 216). What else is there to say?, other than rust monsters are a wicked trick to play on the PCs.
Dragonteuthis 03-13-07, 05:08 PM	Rust Monsters are indeed a wicked trick to play on PCs. They are no fun. Hence I like the idea of remaking it, as noted here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060714a)