Adding class levels to an Awakened Raven... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adding class levels to an Awakened Raven... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pallin Rahl
10-26-06, 10:56 PM I've got this wacky idea for an NPC in the campaign I'm running...
An Awakened Raven with some class levels. :)

How would one go about actually stating this out, though...?

Anyone have a sec to give me a hand... maybe help express what an Awakened Raven would look like as a race writeup...?

I always seem to screw things up when I try to add class levels to awkward things (i.e. things that were never intended to be played as characters...).
RavenDrake
10-26-06, 11:39 PM This is a case where express DM permission would be necessary... Cause I gotta tell you, it's gonna be HELL to find a way to make a raven playable.

Strike One: Tiny
They have to enter an opponent's square to attack. They have no strength score to speak of. Their carying capacity has to be light to fly, meaning they can't even use what little equipment they might be able to hold. They have the effective grapple modifier of cooked spagetti, meaning they can be snatched up and squashed easily be even Goblins and Kobolds.

Strike Two: Non-humanoid appearence
They have no hands, so can weild no weapons or equipment(well, they can HOLD things with thier feet, but I don't know that I would let them weild weapons with them). Armour, if they could even wear it, would have to be very specially made, as would any other equipment. This would normally be compounded by the inability to speak, but Awaken(and general Raven Lore) takes care of that issue.

Even with these strikes against it, it might be possible, but class selection would be of the utmost importance. First of, with tiny size and Strength score below 5 you can pretty much strike all of the fighter classes. Rogue might be interesting, though having to enter opponent's squares to strike would laregely negate the benefit of sneak attacks. Arcane casters would be a difficult choice as well... they have no hands for somatic components, nor to manipulate material components and focuses. It would take two feats(Eschew Materials and Still Spell) to be a caster, and you'd still be two casting levels back because of the need to Still so many of your spells(untill you get to the Power Word spells at least)

My vote, if you were to try to play the raven with a core class, would be Druid. They have a bonus to Wisdom, the druid class would Qualify them for the Wild Spell feat(which your DM MIGHT let you apply to your normal animal form).

Alternately, you might be able to get more miliage out of a non-core class(the Psionics, which I know little about, or an alternate class from one of the other books), but pretty much all of them will be signifigantly impacted by your choice of being a Raven.

As for statting the raven, I can help there a bit. The Awaken spell says you advance to 2HD. As a Magical Beast (Augmented animal), it should retain it's animal Features(d8 HD, 3/4 BaB, Good Fort and Ref saves, Skill Points equal to (2+Int mod), with 4x skill points for first HD) but gain it's new creature type traits(From Magical Beast: Darkvision 60ft and Low Light Vision, all other traits the same as animal). So you'll have 2d8 Hitdice, plus Con modifier per HD, BaB +1, Base saves of +3 Fort, +3 Ref, +1 Wil, Skill points equal to [4*(2+Int mod)]+(2+Int mod), One feat for first HD, plus Weapon Finesse as a bonus Racial Feat, and Darkvision 60ft and Low Light Vision.

As for determining your stats, Consult The Ability Scores for Monster PCs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#abilityScoresforMons terPCs) section of the SRD for how to deal with the Strength and Charisma. You'll Roll 3d6 for Intelligence, like any other stat. For Cha and Str, though, special monster rules apply to keep them "playable". If you use Point buy, then just buy the stat up like you normally would, and compare your "Bought" value to the chart's Generated Score value. For Str, however, I wouldn't bother trying to make it "playable".. even with a score of 18 you'll only wind up with an 8 Str... just Dump it and try to find other ways to make your character playable.

I hope this helps.
Toran_A_Sunder
10-26-06, 11:49 PM Stated out? Use the MM. As for playable classes, stick to divine casters or psionics, since they dont need hands for somatics or material components. Fighter classes will get you no where, as was stated. Druid would fit best and give you the best bang for your buck, because you'll get spells and wild shape to boot. "Squawk I'm a raven! Uh oh! Now I'm a tiger as I bite your face off!"
Pallin Rahl
10-27-06, 12:33 AM As for DM's permission... as I mentioned in the OP, I'm the DM :P ...this is for an NPC in my campaign. ;)

Class I'm looking to use?
I intend to make him an Awakened Raven Truenamer (from ToM). :D All he needs for that is to be able to speak and have lots of skill points in the Truenaming Skill. (and a few nice, raven-sized +truespeaking skill items)
RavenDrake
10-27-06, 03:58 AM Ah.. my appologies... I missed the whole "npc in a game I'm running" part.

As for Truenamer(I'm unfamilier with them, except having heard of them in passing) So long as you can speak(Which, as an Awakened Raven won't be a problem) you should be able to use thier abilities as long as that's all that's required.
Pallin Rahl
10-27-06, 12:38 PM As for Truenamer(I'm unfamilier with them, except having heard of them in passing) So long as you can speak(Which, as an Awakened Raven won't be a problem) you should be able to use thier abilities as long as that's all that's required.

Truenaming is a form of casting (from ToM) that functions as a spell-like ability with a verbal (only) component.

To "cast a spell" via Truenaming, you speak and perform a skill check (using the Truenaming skill). If successful, you cast.

An awakened Raven would have no problem being a Truenamer.

---

Another question about using the Awakened Raven...

Say I'm going to roll his ability scores (I'll have to for his mental stats anyway due to how the Awaken spell works). ...what specific modifies would I use for his STR, DEX, and CON? Is it: STR -10, DEX +4, (and no change to CON)? ...or something else?

---

Here's an odd question...

As a 2HD magical beast, if I'm interpreting it correctly, this would mean he could only ever attain Truenamer level 18 (by level 20)... correct?

i.e. If I want to make him a ECL 10 NPC... he'd basically be:
Raven Racial HD 2 / Truenamer 8

...right?

So this begs the question... with the limitations of being an Awakened Raven as a race, are the few benefits being one does receive worth the 2 HD?

Now, obviously this is far from a "good" race choice (Awakened Raven)... but would it be unbalanced for me to just give him the full benefits of a 2HD Awakened Raven and essentially "ignore" these 2HD when calculating his ECL? ...and for instance, when making him an ECL 10 NPC, give him the full benefits of being a 2HD Awakened Raven and then allowing him to be Truenamer 10? As the DM, I can of course do this... but I want to keep things fairly balanced when it comes to things of this nature...
Raven Dark
10-27-06, 12:53 PM Ravens only have 1/4 of a HD. How would that work with the 2 new HD from Awaken and the class levels? Is it overlapped (in that an awkakened raven has only 2 HD), rounded up (to 3 HD), or simply added on in some weird fashion (2 1/4 HD)?

I think this would be one of the more complicate issues to deal with first as it can make for some extraordinarily different results.
Mysticaloctopus
10-27-06, 01:01 PM I'm not sure, but I think that monster HD are not equal to class levels in terms of determining CR. I'd put it as LA+1, because it can fly, but then the problems (low Str, no hands) mean it's not really that great - you can't have the raven lug someone's pack up to the top of what they're climbing for them. 2 animal HD are not 2 levels. If you want, call it 1 level, but I might ignore it entirely. I'm no expert on it, that's just how I'd rule it.
RavenDrake
10-27-06, 05:06 PM It says that Awakened Animals get +2HD, which would effectively give it 2 1/4 HD... For simplicity's sake, I'd simply consider it overlaping and just "Advance" the Raven to 2HD.

For ability scores, subtract 10 and round down to the nearest even number, so they would have -10 Str, +4 Dexterity,+0 Constitution, +0 Intelligence(since Awaken lets you roll Intelligence as normal), +4 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. Remember, though, that Awaken increases thier Charisma by 1d3, so apply that AFTER you have thier base Charisma score.

There's nothing that says you have to stop at ECL 20, if you want to advance the creature... however, after ECL 20 you would probably have to consult the Epic level experience charts to progress in Truenamer, but I would allow it.

As for the HD... it's still two HD, with two good saves, but poor skill points. Then there's thier Level Adjustment. Even with the massive penalty to Strength, The benefits of Tiny size, Flight speed, and Darkvision 60ft plus Low Light Vision would probably give them a +1 LA(Someone with Savage Species can calculate that out and give me a correction if it's wrong). So the would have a base ECL of 3, meaning you'd have add Truenamer 7 to give them an Effective Character Level of 10. As for Encounter Level, I thought for creatures with PC classes the Encounter Level was the same as their Effective Character Level, but someone can correct me on that if I'm mistaken.

Now, if this is intended to be a foe for the PCs to Face, remember that a creature with an Encounter Level equal to the Parties average Effective Character Level(assuming a 4 person party) is intended to be pretty easily vanquished. It's assumed to only make the party expend about a quarter of it's total "daily" resources, tops. Even with the added unusualness of fighing a spellcasting Raven, there's really nothing that over-the-top about it. If this is supposed to be a BBEG or Lieutenant, I'd suggest making it one, or maybe two, Enouter Levels higher than the party. If it's intended to be a companion or contact for the PC's and not directly fact them, or enter combat with them, then I see no reason not to "Ignore" the racial HD and tack on Truenamer 10...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pallin Rahl 10-26-06, 10:56 PM	I've got this wacky idea for an NPC in the campaign I'm running... An Awakened Raven with some class levels. :) How would one go about actually stating this out, though...? Anyone have a sec to give me a hand... maybe help express what an Awakened Raven would look like as a race writeup...? I always seem to screw things up when I try to add class levels to awkward things (i.e. things that were never intended to be played as characters...).
RavenDrake 10-26-06, 11:39 PM	This is a case where express DM permission would be necessary... Cause I gotta tell you, it's gonna be HELL to find a way to make a raven playable. Strike One: Tiny They have to enter an opponent's square to attack. They have no strength score to speak of. Their carying capacity has to be light to fly, meaning they can't even use what little equipment they might be able to hold. They have the effective grapple modifier of cooked spagetti, meaning they can be snatched up and squashed easily be even Goblins and Kobolds. Strike Two: Non-humanoid appearence They have no hands, so can weild no weapons or equipment(well, they can HOLD things with thier feet, but I don't know that I would let them weild weapons with them). Armour, if they could even wear it, would have to be very specially made, as would any other equipment. This would normally be compounded by the inability to speak, but Awaken(and general Raven Lore) takes care of that issue. Even with these strikes against it, it might be possible, but class selection would be of the utmost importance. First of, with tiny size and Strength score below 5 you can pretty much strike all of the fighter classes. Rogue might be interesting, though having to enter opponent's squares to strike would laregely negate the benefit of sneak attacks. Arcane casters would be a difficult choice as well... they have no hands for somatic components, nor to manipulate material components and focuses. It would take two feats(Eschew Materials and Still Spell) to be a caster, and you'd still be two casting levels back because of the need to Still so many of your spells(untill you get to the Power Word spells at least) My vote, if you were to try to play the raven with a core class, would be Druid. They have a bonus to Wisdom, the druid class would Qualify them for the Wild Spell feat(which your DM MIGHT let you apply to your normal animal form). Alternately, you might be able to get more miliage out of a non-core class(the Psionics, which I know little about, or an alternate class from one of the other books), but pretty much all of them will be signifigantly impacted by your choice of being a Raven. As for statting the raven, I can help there a bit. The Awaken spell says you advance to 2HD. As a Magical Beast (Augmented animal), it should retain it's animal Features(d8 HD, 3/4 BaB, Good Fort and Ref saves, Skill Points equal to (2+Int mod), with 4x skill points for first HD) but gain it's new creature type traits(From Magical Beast: Darkvision 60ft and Low Light Vision, all other traits the same as animal). So you'll have 2d8 Hitdice, plus Con modifier per HD, BaB +1, Base saves of +3 Fort, +3 Ref, +1 Wil, Skill points equal to [4*(2+Int mod)]+(2+Int mod), One feat for first HD, plus Weapon Finesse as a bonus Racial Feat, and Darkvision 60ft and Low Light Vision. As for determining your stats, Consult The Ability Scores for Monster PCs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#abilityScoresforMons terPCs) section of the SRD for how to deal with the Strength and Charisma. You'll Roll 3d6 for Intelligence, like any other stat. For Cha and Str, though, special monster rules apply to keep them "playable". If you use Point buy, then just buy the stat up like you normally would, and compare your "Bought" value to the chart's Generated Score value. For Str, however, I wouldn't bother trying to make it "playable".. even with a score of 18 you'll only wind up with an 8 Str... just Dump it and try to find other ways to make your character playable. I hope this helps.
Toran_A_Sunder 10-26-06, 11:49 PM	Stated out? Use the MM. As for playable classes, stick to divine casters or psionics, since they dont need hands for somatics or material components. Fighter classes will get you no where, as was stated. Druid would fit best and give you the best bang for your buck, because you'll get spells and wild shape to boot. "Squawk I'm a raven! Uh oh! Now I'm a tiger as I bite your face off!"
Pallin Rahl 10-27-06, 12:33 AM	As for DM's permission... as I mentioned in the OP, I'm the DM :P ...this is for an NPC in my campaign. ;) Class I'm looking to use? I intend to make him an Awakened Raven Truenamer (from ToM). :D All he needs for that is to be able to speak and have lots of skill points in the Truenaming Skill. (and a few nice, raven-sized +truespeaking skill items)
RavenDrake 10-27-06, 03:58 AM	Ah.. my appologies... I missed the whole "npc in a game I'm running" part. As for Truenamer(I'm unfamilier with them, except having heard of them in passing) So long as you can speak(Which, as an Awakened Raven won't be a problem) you should be able to use thier abilities as long as that's all that's required.
Pallin Rahl 10-27-06, 12:38 PM	As for Truenamer(I'm unfamilier with them, except having heard of them in passing) So long as you can speak(Which, as an Awakened Raven won't be a problem) you should be able to use thier abilities as long as that's all that's required. Truenaming is a form of casting (from ToM) that functions as a spell-like ability with a verbal (only) component. To "cast a spell" via Truenaming, you speak and perform a skill check (using the Truenaming skill). If successful, you cast. An awakened Raven would have no problem being a Truenamer. --- Another question about using the Awakened Raven... Say I'm going to roll his ability scores (I'll have to for his mental stats anyway due to how the Awaken spell works). ...what specific modifies would I use for his STR, DEX, and CON? Is it: STR -10, DEX +4, (and no change to CON)? ...or something else? --- Here's an odd question... As a 2HD magical beast, if I'm interpreting it correctly, this would mean he could only ever attain Truenamer level 18 (by level 20)... correct? i.e. If I want to make him a ECL 10 NPC... he'd basically be: Raven Racial HD 2 / Truenamer 8 ...right? So this begs the question... with the limitations of being an Awakened Raven as a race, are the few benefits being one does receive worth the 2 HD? Now, obviously this is far from a "good" race choice (Awakened Raven)... but would it be unbalanced for me to just give him the full benefits of a 2HD Awakened Raven and essentially "ignore" these 2HD when calculating his ECL? ...and for instance, when making him an ECL 10 NPC, give him the full benefits of being a 2HD Awakened Raven and then allowing him to be Truenamer 10? As the DM, I can of course do this... but I want to keep things fairly balanced when it comes to things of this nature...
Raven Dark 10-27-06, 12:53 PM	Ravens only have 1/4 of a HD. How would that work with the 2 new HD from Awaken and the class levels? Is it overlapped (in that an awkakened raven has only 2 HD), rounded up (to 3 HD), or simply added on in some weird fashion (2 1/4 HD)? I think this would be one of the more complicate issues to deal with first as it can make for some extraordinarily different results.
Mysticaloctopus 10-27-06, 01:01 PM	I'm not sure, but I think that monster HD are not equal to class levels in terms of determining CR. I'd put it as LA+1, because it can fly, but then the problems (low Str, no hands) mean it's not really that great - you can't have the raven lug someone's pack up to the top of what they're climbing for them. 2 animal HD are not 2 levels. If you want, call it 1 level, but I might ignore it entirely. I'm no expert on it, that's just how I'd rule it.
RavenDrake 10-27-06, 05:06 PM	It says that Awakened Animals get +2HD, which would effectively give it 2 1/4 HD... For simplicity's sake, I'd simply consider it overlaping and just "Advance" the Raven to 2HD. For ability scores, subtract 10 and round down to the nearest even number, so they would have -10 Str, +4 Dexterity,+0 Constitution, +0 Intelligence(since Awaken lets you roll Intelligence as normal), +4 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. Remember, though, that Awaken increases thier Charisma by 1d3, so apply that AFTER you have thier base Charisma score. There's nothing that says you have to stop at ECL 20, if you want to advance the creature... however, after ECL 20 you would probably have to consult the Epic level experience charts to progress in Truenamer, but I would allow it. As for the HD... it's still two HD, with two good saves, but poor skill points. Then there's thier Level Adjustment. Even with the massive penalty to Strength, The benefits of Tiny size, Flight speed, and Darkvision 60ft plus Low Light Vision would probably give them a +1 LA(Someone with Savage Species can calculate that out and give me a correction if it's wrong). So the would have a base ECL of 3, meaning you'd have add Truenamer 7 to give them an Effective Character Level of 10. As for Encounter Level, I thought for creatures with PC classes the Encounter Level was the same as their Effective Character Level, but someone can correct me on that if I'm mistaken. Now, if this is intended to be a foe for the PCs to Face, remember that a creature with an Encounter Level equal to the Parties average Effective Character Level(assuming a 4 person party) is intended to be pretty easily vanquished. It's assumed to only make the party expend about a quarter of it's total "daily" resources, tops. Even with the added unusualness of fighing a spellcasting Raven, there's really nothing that over-the-top about it. If this is supposed to be a BBEG or Lieutenant, I'd suggest making it one, or maybe two, Enouter Levels higher than the party. If it's intended to be a companion or contact for the PC's and not directly fact them, or enter combat with them, then I see no reason not to "Ignore" the racial HD and tack on Truenamer 10...