Advanced Dragon Turtle and Capsize [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advanced Dragon Turtle and Capsize [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thorsbjorn
10-13-07, 03:32 PM A huge dragon turtle can capsize a boat or ship less then 20 feet long 95% of the time, a vessel 20 to 60 feet in length 50% of the time, and a vessel over 60 feet long 20% of the time.

An advanced dragon turtle of 25 or more hit dice grows to gargantuan size. There are not rules for improving the capsize ability, but it makes sense that a dragon turtle twice as large would have an improved chance of capsizing vessels. Does anyone improve the chance? And if so, by how much?

I was thinking that the chance should probably not rise above 95%, just to give the vessel some chance to avoid being capsized (like missing an attack on a roll of a natural 1). If the dragon turtle is twice the size, we could either double the chance of capsizing (but perhaps not past 95%) or perhaps half the chance of failure (but perhaps not below 5%).

If we used the doubling method, the dragon turtle would capsize vessels 60 feet and shorter 95% of the time, and larger vessels 40% of the time.

If we used the halving method, the dragon turtle would capsize vessels 20-60 feet 75% of the time and larger vessels 60% of the time. The halving method could even be used to increase the capsize chance with a vessel under 20 feet, to 97%.

I'd original though to simply double the chance up to 100%, but now having written this I'm leaning toward the halved method producing 97%, 75% and 60%, but what do you prefer and why? Thanks! :)
Thorsbjorn
10-20-07, 08:40 PM The other way I considered accounting for the huge size involved doubling the size categories of the vessels that the dragon turtle could capsize with each percentage. So a huge dragon turtle might capsize vessels of less than 40' 95% of the time and so forth. What do you think? Thanks. :)
Dead_Weasel
10-21-07, 03:47 PM To clarify, the move from Huge to Gargantuan increases the dragon turtle's size from 15' to 20'; it does not double in size (Big & Little Creatures in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLi ttleCreaturesInCombat)).

Since the 95% capsize chance is for ships its own size or smaller, I would start improving the ability like this: <25' ~ 95%, 25-80' ~ 50%, >80' ~ 20%.

However, since the increase in size is accompanied by an increase in Strength, Constitution, and grapple modifier, adding 5-10% to each group seems reasonable to me (although there should always be at least a 1 in 20 chance for a ship to endure the attack, so the first bracket would not increase past 95%).

Since Stormwrack was the sourcebook to examine nautical combat in 3.5, perhaps updating the ability to use some of the more detailed ship mechanics would make it a bit more consistent. I will look into this and play around, and let you know what happens.
Thorsbjorn
10-21-07, 07:28 PM To clarify, the move from Huge to Gargantuan increases the dragon turtle's size from 15' to 20'; it does not double in size (Big & Little Creatures in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLi ttleCreaturesInCombat)).

Since the 95% capsize chance is for ships its own size or smaller, I would start improving the ability like this: <25' ~ 95%, 25-80' ~ 50%, >80' ~ 20%.

I think you might be confusing the space on the battle mat with the creature's actual size. A huge dragon turtle is actually 20 to 30 feet from snout to tail, and 15 to 20 feet in diameter. All dragons are actually rather large for their official size category, which makes an assumption that they don't stretch out straight will fighting but curl partial around themselves, coiling up to some degree as it were. The dragon turtle though is particularly large for its official size, and because of its huge shell can't do much in the way of coiling. It probably should simply start as gargantuan, but I'm not inclined to bother with changing it.

As far as advancement goes, however, there's no rule that I could find that indicates just how much bigger something gets when it advances in size from gaining more hit dice. Since each size category doubles in size over the previous size category, something that increases by two size categories must more than double in dimension (and therefore increase by more than 8 times in mass). Beyond that, however, there's nothing to say that something that increases in size by one category doubles unless the original size is at the very bottom of the previous size category; something that's four feet tall, for instance, must at least double in size in order to reach large size. In theory something could be very close to the next size category and thus not increase much in size to reach the next category. Since a dragon turtle is so big for huge size to begin with, it might, for instance, grow only 5' and quality as gargantuan.

Following the enlarge spell, however, I've always assumed for the same of simplicity that when a creature advances in size that it occupies the same relative position in the new size category that it held in the old size category, thus doubling in size.

However, since the increase in size is accompanied by an increase in Strength, Constitution, and grapple modifier, adding 5-10% to each group seems reasonable to me (although there should always be at least a 1 in 20 chance for a ship to endure the attack, so the first bracket would not increase past 95%).

Since Stormwrack was the sourcebook to examine nautical combat in 3.5, perhaps updating the ability to use some of the more detailed ship mechanics would make it a bit more consistent. I will look into this and play around, and let you know what happens.

Thanks. It's been a while since I looked at the Stormwrack mechanics, but as I recall the dragon turtle is too slow to overtake most sailing vessels under sail. If it wanted to extort treasure from a passing ship it would have to do something like hit the ship from the front to stop it, possibly damaging it enough to start sinking it, and then stay there physically blocking the ship while it made its demands. Otherwise the ship would just sail past it and it would have to either capsize it without warning or just let it go. The dragon turtle might not mind that much if it ends up sinking the ship, but over the long term it would probably get more treasure by extorting all ships that sail through its area, including some of the same ships repeatedly, rather than sinking every ship and scaring all traffic away entirely.

If you can think of a more effective tactic it can use to extort passing ships, by all means pass it along! Thanks. :)
Dead_Weasel
10-22-07, 12:32 AM I think you might be confusing the space on the battle mat with the creature's actual size. A huge dragon turtle is actually 20 to 30 feet from snout to tail, and 15 to 20 feet in diameter. All dragons are actually rather large for their official size category, which makes an assumption that they don't stretch out straight will fighting but curl partial around themselves, coiling up to some degree as it were. The dragon turtle though is particularly large for its official size, and because of its huge shell can't do much in the way of coiling. It probably should simply start as gargantuan, but I'm not inclined to bother with changing it.But game mechanics are not determined by a creature's actual size; they are determined by its mechanical size, and for all mechanical purposes, the average dragon turtle is a 15' by 15' square (or a 15' by 20' rectangle? I can never remember whether or not 'long' creatures occupy a larger space).Thanks. It's been a while since I looked at the Stormwrack mechanics, but as I recall the dragon turtle is too slow to overtake most sailing vessels under sail. If it wanted to extort treasure from a passing ship it would have to do something like hit the ship from the front to stop it, possibly damaging it enough to start sinking it, and then stay there physically blocking the ship while it made its demands. Otherwise the ship would just sail past it and it would have to either capsize it without warning or just let it go. The dragon turtle might not mind that much if it ends up sinking the ship, but over the long term it would probably get more treasure by extorting all ships that sail through its area, including some of the same ships repeatedly, rather than sinking every ship and scaring all traffic away entirely.

If you can think of a more effective tactic it can use to extort passing ships, by all means pass it along! Thanks. :)The Stormwrack ship mechanics are seem vague to me, at least regarding how capsizing can occur. Unfortunately, in part because of this, they do little to expand or clarify the dragon turtle's tactics.

In order to give the crew a chance to determine their own fates, I would suggest that the dragon turtle's attack, if successful (as indicated by the d100 roll), forces the crew to make a foundering check against capsizing, using the dragon turtle's grapple modifier instead of the normal DC (thus, DC 28 for a Huge dragon turtle, and DC (HD+24) for a Gargantuan dragon turtle, even higher if its stat increases go to Str).

As far as tactics go, a dragon turtle would probably damage a ship that refused to bribe it, in order to demonstrate its seriousness. A ship that continued to refuse it could expect a rendezvous with the ocean floor. The dragon turtle would be unlikely to attack a ship that had already paid for its passage, for fear of dissuading other travelers, or attracting treasure hunters/dragon slayers/adventurers. Bribery would only be good for one trip through the dragon turtle's territory, obviously.

The reason that the otherwise slow dragon turtle can keep up with a ship is that as a natural swimmer, it can use accelerated modes of motion underwater and can turn fairly easily, whereas a ship is limited by its method of propulsion and local currents, as well as its maneuverability. In fact, the dragon turtle's normal speed is fast enough to outrun most of the ships Stormwrack describes in an hour, and can hustle to stay ahead of the rest. Moreover, over short distances it can run, allowing it to move 120' in a straight line in a round - the same speed as an elven wingship, the fastest ship in Stormwrack, moves under Strong, Severe, or Windstorm wind conditions. Although the elven wingship can turn up to 90º over that distance, it is still a sailing vessel, and the dragon turtle can turn as much as it likes before it takes its movement, running or not, and is not restricted by wind direction.

The dragon turtle would be intimately familiar with local currents and could predict places most ships would be unable or unwilling to avoid even if a ship proved capable of outpacing it. It might even be able to take routes denied to a ship (i.e. surface-level coral reefs with underwater gaps large enough to swim through, sandbars it can crawl over, sahuagin-infested waters, etc.). The dragon turtle might even know of faster, or even magic-using that creatures it could provoke or intimidate into slowing the ship down long enough to give it an opportunity to demonstrate its displeasure. It might even try to scare a ship into a hazard, by making itself obvious, or harassing the ship with its breath weapon, if it genuinely has reason to fear the ship's passengers.
Thorsbjorn
10-24-07, 12:39 AM Thanks for all the feedback! The run option will help enormously and I hadn't considered it. It could simply run alongside the ship at the surface making its demands, and then, if the ship refused to pay it, ram the ship to try to drive home its point without actually sinking the ship. Then if the ship still refused to pay, it might run out ahead submerged and then use its capsize ability to make an example of it--perhaps allowing some of the crew to escape in lifeboats to take the message back to port. Perhaps it might even "help" one of the lifeboats to ensure that it get back with its message. :D
Dead_Weasel
10-24-07, 02:55 AM Then if the ship still refused to pay, it might run out ahead submerged and then use its capsize ability to make an example of it--perhaps allowing some of the crew to escape in lifeboats to take the message back to port. Perhaps it might even "help" one of the lifeboats to ensure that it get back with its message. :DMaybe if it is trying to establish itself in a new territory, it would; I see no reason for a long-time resident to waste time with mercy for any reason. Dragon turtles may be neutral but they are also extremely territorial, mean-spirited, and generally unlikely to turn down a meal - even one so meager as a humanoid. I imagine that a dragon turtle would consume some of the lifeboat's occupants as it propelled it towards land, figuring that the energy expended in saving some of them justified the occasional snack. Besides, as long as one of them lives, fear of it will spread.

Obviously you could put your own spin on them, though, and if you want to do so, that ought to be fine.
Thorsbjorn
10-24-07, 04:22 AM Maybe if it is trying to establish itself in a new territory, it would; I see no reason for a long-time resident to waste time with mercy for any reason. Dragon turtles may be neutral but they are also extremely territorial, mean-spirited, and generally unlikely to turn down a meal - even one so meager as a humanoid. I imagine that a dragon turtle would consume some of the lifeboat's occupants as it propelled it towards land, figuring that the energy expended in saving some of them justified the occasional snack. Besides, as long as one of them lives, fear of it will spread.

Obviously you could put your own spin on them, though, and if you want to do so, that ought to be fine.

Occasional snack, heh. :D Yes, I was talking about how it would establish a territory, although it wouldn't be motivated in not just capsizing a ship by mercy, but rather by a desire to get more treasure out of it. If it just sinks every ship that refuses to comply, each such ship won't be able to sail through its territory again and pay tribute. If it can get the recalcitrant ones to pay though by ramming a few times before resorting to capsizing the ship, it has a repeat source of treasure. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 10-13-07, 03:32 PM	A huge dragon turtle can capsize a boat or ship less then 20 feet long 95% of the time, a vessel 20 to 60 feet in length 50% of the time, and a vessel over 60 feet long 20% of the time. An advanced dragon turtle of 25 or more hit dice grows to gargantuan size. There are not rules for improving the capsize ability, but it makes sense that a dragon turtle twice as large would have an improved chance of capsizing vessels. Does anyone improve the chance? And if so, by how much? I was thinking that the chance should probably not rise above 95%, just to give the vessel some chance to avoid being capsized (like missing an attack on a roll of a natural 1). If the dragon turtle is twice the size, we could either double the chance of capsizing (but perhaps not past 95%) or perhaps half the chance of failure (but perhaps not below 5%). If we used the doubling method, the dragon turtle would capsize vessels 60 feet and shorter 95% of the time, and larger vessels 40% of the time. If we used the halving method, the dragon turtle would capsize vessels 20-60 feet 75% of the time and larger vessels 60% of the time. The halving method could even be used to increase the capsize chance with a vessel under 20 feet, to 97%. I'd original though to simply double the chance up to 100%, but now having written this I'm leaning toward the halved method producing 97%, 75% and 60%, but what do you prefer and why? Thanks! :)
Thorsbjorn 10-20-07, 08:40 PM	The other way I considered accounting for the huge size involved doubling the size categories of the vessels that the dragon turtle could capsize with each percentage. So a huge dragon turtle might capsize vessels of less than 40' 95% of the time and so forth. What do you think? Thanks. :)
Dead_Weasel 10-21-07, 03:47 PM	To clarify, the move from Huge to Gargantuan increases the dragon turtle's size from 15' to 20'; it does not double in size (Big & Little Creatures in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLi ttleCreaturesInCombat)). Since the 95% capsize chance is for ships its own size or smaller, I would start improving the ability like this: <25' ~ 95%, 25-80' ~ 50%, >80' ~ 20%. However, since the increase in size is accompanied by an increase in Strength, Constitution, and grapple modifier, adding 5-10% to each group seems reasonable to me (although there should always be at least a 1 in 20 chance for a ship to endure the attack, so the first bracket would not increase past 95%). Since Stormwrack was the sourcebook to examine nautical combat in 3.5, perhaps updating the ability to use some of the more detailed ship mechanics would make it a bit more consistent. I will look into this and play around, and let you know what happens.
Thorsbjorn 10-21-07, 07:28 PM	To clarify, the move from Huge to Gargantuan increases the dragon turtle's size from 15' to 20'; it does not double in size (Big & Little Creatures in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLi ttleCreaturesInCombat)). Since the 95% capsize chance is for ships its own size or smaller, I would start improving the ability like this: <25' ~ 95%, 25-80' ~ 50%, >80' ~ 20%. I think you might be confusing the space on the battle mat with the creature's actual size. A huge dragon turtle is actually 20 to 30 feet from snout to tail, and 15 to 20 feet in diameter. All dragons are actually rather large for their official size category, which makes an assumption that they don't stretch out straight will fighting but curl partial around themselves, coiling up to some degree as it were. The dragon turtle though is particularly large for its official size, and because of its huge shell can't do much in the way of coiling. It probably should simply start as gargantuan, but I'm not inclined to bother with changing it. As far as advancement goes, however, there's no rule that I could find that indicates just how much bigger something gets when it advances in size from gaining more hit dice. Since each size category doubles in size over the previous size category, something that increases by two size categories must more than double in dimension (and therefore increase by more than 8 times in mass). Beyond that, however, there's nothing to say that something that increases in size by one category doubles unless the original size is at the very bottom of the previous size category; something that's four feet tall, for instance, must at least double in size in order to reach large size. In theory something could be very close to the next size category and thus not increase much in size to reach the next category. Since a dragon turtle is so big for huge size to begin with, it might, for instance, grow only 5' and quality as gargantuan. Following the enlarge spell, however, I've always assumed for the same of simplicity that when a creature advances in size that it occupies the same relative position in the new size category that it held in the old size category, thus doubling in size. However, since the increase in size is accompanied by an increase in Strength, Constitution, and grapple modifier, adding 5-10% to each group seems reasonable to me (although there should always be at least a 1 in 20 chance for a ship to endure the attack, so the first bracket would not increase past 95%). Since Stormwrack was the sourcebook to examine nautical combat in 3.5, perhaps updating the ability to use some of the more detailed ship mechanics would make it a bit more consistent. I will look into this and play around, and let you know what happens. Thanks. It's been a while since I looked at the Stormwrack mechanics, but as I recall the dragon turtle is too slow to overtake most sailing vessels under sail. If it wanted to extort treasure from a passing ship it would have to do something like hit the ship from the front to stop it, possibly damaging it enough to start sinking it, and then stay there physically blocking the ship while it made its demands. Otherwise the ship would just sail past it and it would have to either capsize it without warning or just let it go. The dragon turtle might not mind that much if it ends up sinking the ship, but over the long term it would probably get more treasure by extorting all ships that sail through its area, including some of the same ships repeatedly, rather than sinking every ship and scaring all traffic away entirely. If you can think of a more effective tactic it can use to extort passing ships, by all means pass it along! Thanks. :)
Dead_Weasel 10-22-07, 12:32 AM	I think you might be confusing the space on the battle mat with the creature's actual size. A huge dragon turtle is actually 20 to 30 feet from snout to tail, and 15 to 20 feet in diameter. All dragons are actually rather large for their official size category, which makes an assumption that they don't stretch out straight will fighting but curl partial around themselves, coiling up to some degree as it were. The dragon turtle though is particularly large for its official size, and because of its huge shell can't do much in the way of coiling. It probably should simply start as gargantuan, but I'm not inclined to bother with changing it.But game mechanics are not determined by a creature's actual size; they are determined by its mechanical size, and for all mechanical purposes, the average dragon turtle is a 15' by 15' square (or a 15' by 20' rectangle? I can never remember whether or not 'long' creatures occupy a larger space).Thanks. It's been a while since I looked at the Stormwrack mechanics, but as I recall the dragon turtle is too slow to overtake most sailing vessels under sail. If it wanted to extort treasure from a passing ship it would have to do something like hit the ship from the front to stop it, possibly damaging it enough to start sinking it, and then stay there physically blocking the ship while it made its demands. Otherwise the ship would just sail past it and it would have to either capsize it without warning or just let it go. The dragon turtle might not mind that much if it ends up sinking the ship, but over the long term it would probably get more treasure by extorting all ships that sail through its area, including some of the same ships repeatedly, rather than sinking every ship and scaring all traffic away entirely. If you can think of a more effective tactic it can use to extort passing ships, by all means pass it along! Thanks. :)The Stormwrack ship mechanics are seem vague to me, at least regarding how capsizing can occur. Unfortunately, in part because of this, they do little to expand or clarify the dragon turtle's tactics. In order to give the crew a chance to determine their own fates, I would suggest that the dragon turtle's attack, if successful (as indicated by the d100 roll), forces the crew to make a foundering check against capsizing, using the dragon turtle's grapple modifier instead of the normal DC (thus, DC 28 for a Huge dragon turtle, and DC (HD+24) for a Gargantuan dragon turtle, even higher if its stat increases go to Str). As far as tactics go, a dragon turtle would probably damage a ship that refused to bribe it, in order to demonstrate its seriousness. A ship that continued to refuse it could expect a rendezvous with the ocean floor. The dragon turtle would be unlikely to attack a ship that had already paid for its passage, for fear of dissuading other travelers, or attracting treasure hunters/dragon slayers/adventurers. Bribery would only be good for one trip through the dragon turtle's territory, obviously. The reason that the otherwise slow dragon turtle can keep up with a ship is that as a natural swimmer, it can use accelerated modes of motion underwater and can turn fairly easily, whereas a ship is limited by its method of propulsion and local currents, as well as its maneuverability. In fact, the dragon turtle's normal speed is fast enough to outrun most of the ships Stormwrack describes in an hour, and can hustle to stay ahead of the rest. Moreover, over short distances it can run, allowing it to move 120' in a straight line in a round - the same speed as an elven wingship, the fastest ship in Stormwrack, moves under Strong, Severe, or Windstorm wind conditions. Although the elven wingship can turn up to 90º over that distance, it is still a sailing vessel, and the dragon turtle can turn as much as it likes before it takes its movement, running or not, and is not restricted by wind direction. The dragon turtle would be intimately familiar with local currents and could predict places most ships would be unable or unwilling to avoid even if a ship proved capable of outpacing it. It might even be able to take routes denied to a ship (i.e. surface-level coral reefs with underwater gaps large enough to swim through, sandbars it can crawl over, sahuagin-infested waters, etc.). The dragon turtle might even know of faster, or even magic-using that creatures it could provoke or intimidate into slowing the ship down long enough to give it an opportunity to demonstrate its displeasure. It might even try to scare a ship into a hazard, by making itself obvious, or harassing the ship with its breath weapon, if it genuinely has reason to fear the ship's passengers.
Thorsbjorn 10-24-07, 12:39 AM	Thanks for all the feedback! The run option will help enormously and I hadn't considered it. It could simply run alongside the ship at the surface making its demands, and then, if the ship refused to pay it, ram the ship to try to drive home its point without actually sinking the ship. Then if the ship still refused to pay, it might run out ahead submerged and then use its capsize ability to make an example of it--perhaps allowing some of the crew to escape in lifeboats to take the message back to port. Perhaps it might even "help" one of the lifeboats to ensure that it get back with its message. :D
Dead_Weasel 10-24-07, 02:55 AM	Then if the ship still refused to pay, it might run out ahead submerged and then use its capsize ability to make an example of it--perhaps allowing some of the crew to escape in lifeboats to take the message back to port. Perhaps it might even "help" one of the lifeboats to ensure that it get back with its message. :DMaybe if it is trying to establish itself in a new territory, it would; I see no reason for a long-time resident to waste time with mercy for any reason. Dragon turtles may be neutral but they are also extremely territorial, mean-spirited, and generally unlikely to turn down a meal - even one so meager as a humanoid. I imagine that a dragon turtle would consume some of the lifeboat's occupants as it propelled it towards land, figuring that the energy expended in saving some of them justified the occasional snack. Besides, as long as one of them lives, fear of it will spread. Obviously you could put your own spin on them, though, and if you want to do so, that ought to be fine.
Thorsbjorn 10-24-07, 04:22 AM	Maybe if it is trying to establish itself in a new territory, it would; I see no reason for a long-time resident to waste time with mercy for any reason. Dragon turtles may be neutral but they are also extremely territorial, mean-spirited, and generally unlikely to turn down a meal - even one so meager as a humanoid. I imagine that a dragon turtle would consume some of the lifeboat's occupants as it propelled it towards land, figuring that the energy expended in saving some of them justified the occasional snack. Besides, as long as one of them lives, fear of it will spread. Obviously you could put your own spin on them, though, and if you want to do so, that ought to be fine. Occasional snack, heh. :D Yes, I was talking about how it would establish a territory, although it wouldn't be motivated in not just capsizing a ship by mercy, but rather by a desire to get more treasure out of it. If it just sinks every ship that refuses to comply, each such ship won't be able to sail through its territory again and pay tribute. If it can get the recalcitrant ones to pay though by ramming a few times before resorting to capsizing the ship, it has a repeat source of treasure. :D