Advanced Dragons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advanced Dragons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
aibarnes
04-19-08, 10:36 AM I'm attempting to create a bad guy for a Dragon Campaign that I'm running. I decided to go for a Great Wyrm Fang Dragon, and advance it a little. As per the rules in the Draconomicon. (Pages 99-100)

I've done most of the math and the rules are easy to follow. But there are a few things it doesn't say how to increase. When the example Advanced Red Dragon is given the Base Attack/Grapple bonuses are both very high, but it doesn't say how they got to be that way. Also the saving throw bonuses are higher than the new ability score modifiers would allow; with no feats to improve them. I tried to do the math and see if it was an Age Category increase plus HD bonus, but the math never works out.

Please tell me what book/chart/math I am missing, so that I can create my villian appropriately. I know since he is technically an NPC, I could just 'give' him the stats I want him to have, but I would like to map it out all the same.

On another note, when a dragon takes class levels does he get the full Base Attack bonus/saves for the levels he takes?

Does a dragon with class levels get ability score increases every 4 levels like a normal character? Do they get the feats as well; or just the standard feat every 4 HD?

Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it!:P
DebiHuman
04-19-08, 11:09 AM http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice

This may help. At least it puts the information in one place.

Debby
aibarnes
04-19-08, 12:16 PM It just confirmed the feats rule of 1 per 4HD. No additional feats per class levels.

I guess monsters with class levels don't get the 1 in every 4 level ability score increase.

Still wondering on how to do advanced Base Attack/Grapple/Saves for high HD advanced dragons.

Thanks
DebiHuman
04-19-08, 01:59 PM I have no idea why the Dragonomicon says it is 1 feat per 4 HD. The SRD says it's 1 feat per 3 HD.
I suspect the Draconomicon is in error

From SRD
"Feats
Like ordinary dragons, advanced dragons receive one feat for every 3 Hit Dice they have. Feats gained after the dragon attains great wyrm status can be epic feats."

"Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases
A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases."

So, it still gets feats and ability scores but you have to add all the HD together. Figure each HD = 1 level regardless if the level came from it's monster level or its class level.

Monsters gain feats just like characters. A young red dragon, 3rd level fighter is a 16 level character. He has 3 HD from Fighter and 13 HD from being a young dragon for a total of 16 levels. He should have 6 normal feats plus his bonus feats [same as any other 16 level multiclassed PC] and he gets 4 points to add to his abilities.

ECL for said young red dragon, 3rd level fighter is 22 [16 HD and +6 level adjustment].
CR for said young red dragon is 10 [7 from being a young red dragon plus the 3 associated levels from Fighter]

Still wondering on how to do advanced Base Attack/Grapple/Saves for high HD advanced dragons. Same you do do them for regular dragons.

Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is: BAB +Str Modifier+ Size Modifier
Your attack bonus with a ranged weapon is BAB +Dex Modifier +Size Modifier+ range penalty

Grapple
BAB +Str Modifier +Special Size Modifier (and bonus as from Improved Grapple)

The example I gave above used a Young dragon (which is Medium size). Your dragon may be larger or smaller. BAB is
number of HD for my dragon that would be 16.

Debby
aibarnes
04-19-08, 03:34 PM Hrm, Okay so Feats every 3HD and ability increases every 4HD.

Just found the HD=BAB thing. Although the example advanced Red in the Draconomicon is 61 HD, with a 77 BAB. Odd.

Any thoughts on the base saves for dragons, looking at any of the charts in the books, I can't find any pattern in the base save per HD increase. It doesn't follow HD or ability modifier patterns.

They would get the base saves for the class levels of course. But what about saves for virtual age categories beyond Great Wyrm? The regular progression doesn't even match up with all 3 of their saves being 'good' saves. How much save per virtual age category or HD does an advanced dragon get?:confused:

Thanks for all the help Debby:D
DebiHuman
04-19-08, 10:35 PM Hrm, Okay so Feats every 3HD and ability increases every 4HD.

Just found the HD=BAB thing. Although the example advanced Red in the Draconomicon is 61 HD, with a 77 BAB. Odd.

Any thoughts on the base saves for dragons, looking at any of the charts in the books, I can't find any pattern in the base save per HD increase. It doesn't follow HD or ability modifier patterns.

They would get the base saves for the class levels of course. But what about saves for virtual age categories beyond Great Wyrm? The regular progression doesn't even match up with all 3 of their saves being 'good' saves. How much save per virtual age category or HD does an advanced dragon get?:confused:

Thanks for all the help Debby:D

Not a problem. I think what happened is that they used +77 for both the BAB and for the melee.

Obviously that is wrong because melee is BAB+Str+Size. Now the size of the Dragon is Colossal -8, and Str is 59 (+24) so it's melee should be 77 if its BAB is 61. What do you know, the numbers confirm it! 61+24-8=77. At least they got that part right! It's not a total loss as long as you note that BAB is 61.

I haven't tried advancing a dragon using the Draconomicon rules. I think the additional rules come into play after you've advanced a dragon beyond the HD listed in the SRD or monster manual. So a red dragon that has more than
40 HD would advance following the rules in the Draconomicon (which incidently is why they picked 61 as it is 21 more HD and 7 virtual levels).

The important thing with monster creation whether it's for easy monsters, complicated or advanced is that you double check your numbers. If you plug in the numbers right the first time, most things will fall into place.

The fang dragon is from Monsters of Faerun which is a 3.0 product so you may have to upgrade to 3.5. I'm not sure if anyone has done this or not. Secondly, a fang dragon would advance following the rules in the Draconomicon at 38 or more HD. It would gain a size too since the largest fang dragon listed in the book is Gargantuan.

Good luck.

Debby

Good luck.
ArochanoX
04-21-08, 01:57 AM Fang Dragon was updated in the Draconomicon.

When advancing dragons, they get the ability increase for every 4 HD and feat every 3 HD. This applies to class levels too. If you want some cheese, go with "non-associated class levels" (they're described in the Monster Manual). A dragon (and any monster) that is advanced by class levels gains the HD, BAB, Saves and class abilities of that class. So a dragon sorcerer would gain d4 HD, good will save and poor bab instead dragon's d12 HD, all good saves and good bab.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aibarnes 04-19-08, 10:36 AM	I'm attempting to create a bad guy for a Dragon Campaign that I'm running. I decided to go for a Great Wyrm Fang Dragon, and advance it a little. As per the rules in the Draconomicon. (Pages 99-100) I've done most of the math and the rules are easy to follow. But there are a few things it doesn't say how to increase. When the example Advanced Red Dragon is given the Base Attack/Grapple bonuses are both very high, but it doesn't say how they got to be that way. Also the saving throw bonuses are higher than the new ability score modifiers would allow; with no feats to improve them. I tried to do the math and see if it was an Age Category increase plus HD bonus, but the math never works out. Please tell me what book/chart/math I am missing, so that I can create my villian appropriately. I know since he is technically an NPC, I could just 'give' him the stats I want him to have, but I would like to map it out all the same. On another note, when a dragon takes class levels does he get the full Base Attack bonus/saves for the levels he takes? Does a dragon with class levels get ability score increases every 4 levels like a normal character? Do they get the feats as well; or just the standard feat every 4 HD? Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it!:P
DebiHuman 04-19-08, 11:09 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice This may help. At least it puts the information in one place. Debby
aibarnes 04-19-08, 12:16 PM	It just confirmed the feats rule of 1 per 4HD. No additional feats per class levels. I guess monsters with class levels don't get the 1 in every 4 level ability score increase. Still wondering on how to do advanced Base Attack/Grapple/Saves for high HD advanced dragons. Thanks
DebiHuman 04-19-08, 01:59 PM	I have no idea why the Dragonomicon says it is 1 feat per 4 HD. The SRD says it's 1 feat per 3 HD. I suspect the Draconomicon is in error From SRD "Feats Like ordinary dragons, advanced dragons receive one feat for every 3 Hit Dice they have. Feats gained after the dragon attains great wyrm status can be epic feats." "Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases." So, it still gets feats and ability scores but you have to add all the HD together. Figure each HD = 1 level regardless if the level came from it's monster level or its class level. Monsters gain feats just like characters. A young red dragon, 3rd level fighter is a 16 level character. He has 3 HD from Fighter and 13 HD from being a young dragon for a total of 16 levels. He should have 6 normal feats plus his bonus feats [same as any other 16 level multiclassed PC] and he gets 4 points to add to his abilities. ECL for said young red dragon, 3rd level fighter is 22 [16 HD and +6 level adjustment]. CR for said young red dragon is 10 [7 from being a young red dragon plus the 3 associated levels from Fighter] Still wondering on how to do advanced Base Attack/Grapple/Saves for high HD advanced dragons. Same you do do them for regular dragons. Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is: BAB +Str Modifier+ Size Modifier Your attack bonus with a ranged weapon is BAB +Dex Modifier +Size Modifier+ range penalty Grapple BAB +Str Modifier +Special Size Modifier (and bonus as from Improved Grapple) The example I gave above used a Young dragon (which is Medium size). Your dragon may be larger or smaller. BAB is number of HD for my dragon that would be 16. Debby
aibarnes 04-19-08, 03:34 PM	Hrm, Okay so Feats every 3HD and ability increases every 4HD. Just found the HD=BAB thing. Although the example advanced Red in the Draconomicon is 61 HD, with a 77 BAB. Odd. Any thoughts on the base saves for dragons, looking at any of the charts in the books, I can't find any pattern in the base save per HD increase. It doesn't follow HD or ability modifier patterns. They would get the base saves for the class levels of course. But what about saves for virtual age categories beyond Great Wyrm? The regular progression doesn't even match up with all 3 of their saves being 'good' saves. How much save per virtual age category or HD does an advanced dragon get?:confused: Thanks for all the help Debby:D
DebiHuman 04-19-08, 10:35 PM	Hrm, Okay so Feats every 3HD and ability increases every 4HD. Just found the HD=BAB thing. Although the example advanced Red in the Draconomicon is 61 HD, with a 77 BAB. Odd. Any thoughts on the base saves for dragons, looking at any of the charts in the books, I can't find any pattern in the base save per HD increase. It doesn't follow HD or ability modifier patterns. They would get the base saves for the class levels of course. But what about saves for virtual age categories beyond Great Wyrm? The regular progression doesn't even match up with all 3 of their saves being 'good' saves. How much save per virtual age category or HD does an advanced dragon get?:confused: Thanks for all the help Debby:D Not a problem. I think what happened is that they used +77 for both the BAB and for the melee. Obviously that is wrong because melee is BAB+Str+Size. Now the size of the Dragon is Colossal -8, and Str is 59 (+24) so it's melee should be 77 if its BAB is 61. What do you know, the numbers confirm it! 61+24-8=77. At least they got that part right! It's not a total loss as long as you note that BAB is 61. I haven't tried advancing a dragon using the Draconomicon rules. I think the additional rules come into play after you've advanced a dragon beyond the HD listed in the SRD or monster manual. So a red dragon that has more than 40 HD would advance following the rules in the Draconomicon (which incidently is why they picked 61 as it is 21 more HD and 7 virtual levels). The important thing with monster creation whether it's for easy monsters, complicated or advanced is that you double check your numbers. If you plug in the numbers right the first time, most things will fall into place. The fang dragon is from Monsters of Faerun which is a 3.0 product so you may have to upgrade to 3.5. I'm not sure if anyone has done this or not. Secondly, a fang dragon would advance following the rules in the Draconomicon at 38 or more HD. It would gain a size too since the largest fang dragon listed in the book is Gargantuan. Good luck. Debby Good luck.
ArochanoX 04-21-08, 01:57 AM	Fang Dragon was updated in the Draconomicon. When advancing dragons, they get the ability increase for every 4 HD and feat every 3 HD. This applies to class levels too. If you want some cheese, go with "non-associated class levels" (they're described in the Monster Manual). A dragon (and any monster) that is advanced by class levels gains the HD, BAB, Saves and class abilities of that class. So a dragon sorcerer would gain d4 HD, good will save and poor bab instead dragon's d12 HD, all good saves and good bab.