Advanced Monsters and Ability Score Improvement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advanced Monsters and Ability Score Improvement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talraen
03-20-05, 11:38 PM In the Monster Manual, page 290, the rules are given for monster ability score improvements. It says that every time a monster reaches a number of Hit Dice divisible by 4, it improves one ability score by 1, but it also specifically states:
Monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.
This seems like a reasonable rule (although I seem to recall it being contradicted in Savage Species), but it tends to be highly problematic in my experience. If you advance a treant from 7 HD to 21 HD, it already has +8 Strength from the size increase, does it really need another +4? On the other hand, I suppose there might be a creature that advances by Hit Dice that wants to increase mental ability scores, which an increase in size doesn't do. Maybe a demon wants its spell-like ability DC's maxed.

But then, despite what the rules say, they never seem to be enforced correctly. Look at the Abilities of the sample advanced Otyugh on page 292. They don't account for the ability score increases at 8 HD and 12 HD. Nor do any of the sample monsters in the book that appear to be statted-out advanced versions (such as the Displacer Beast Pack Lord, page 66).

As a contrast, look at the Hound Archon Hero on page 17. Removing racial adjustments, his stats are Str 17, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14. He advanced from 6 HD to 17 HD, getting three ability increases (at 8, 12, and 16 HD). We can rewrite his stats as Str 15+2, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 13+1, which is the elite array with +3 thrown in, thus following the rules exactly.

So what does this mean? It appears to me that racial HD advancement does not lead to ability increases, but class HD advancement does, despite the written rules. But if that's true, why include racial HD in the calculation at all? Why not base ability advancement solely on class HD? The Hound Archon Hero does not (he has 11 levels of paladin, which would result in only 2 ability score increases, not 3). And what if, in theory, you added class levels to a monster and then advanced it? (Not that I'm saying one should do such a thing, but hey, you never know :) )

Basically, there is no really solid ruling that is consistent with the way the monsters were statted out, so what do you think is the best way to handle this?
Colmarr
03-21-05, 01:13 AM I would treat the "advanced" examples as examples only. The designers forgot to make the requisite ability adjustments.

The rules themselves are relatively clear that you gain an ability bonus when your gain a HD divisible by 4 (ie. 4, 8, 12, etc). If you ignore that rule, creatures which never change size, or that change size after a divide-by-4 threshold, are missing an ability adustment.
Gilean
03-21-05, 12:26 PM It also happens in the free adventures. Monsters are always ignored :weep:
Hound archons aren't monsters, BTW. They are GOOD. They can't be monsters, now can they :rolleyes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talraen 03-20-05, 11:38 PM	In the Monster Manual, page 290, the rules are given for monster ability score improvements. It says that every time a monster reaches a number of Hit Dice divisible by 4, it improves one ability score by 1, but it also specifically states: Monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores. This seems like a reasonable rule (although I seem to recall it being contradicted in Savage Species), but it tends to be highly problematic in my experience. If you advance a treant from 7 HD to 21 HD, it already has +8 Strength from the size increase, does it really need another +4? On the other hand, I suppose there might be a creature that advances by Hit Dice that wants to increase mental ability scores, which an increase in size doesn't do. Maybe a demon wants its spell-like ability DC's maxed. But then, despite what the rules say, they never seem to be enforced correctly. Look at the Abilities of the sample advanced Otyugh on page 292. They don't account for the ability score increases at 8 HD and 12 HD. Nor do any of the sample monsters in the book that appear to be statted-out advanced versions (such as the Displacer Beast Pack Lord, page 66). As a contrast, look at the Hound Archon Hero on page 17. Removing racial adjustments, his stats are Str 17, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14. He advanced from 6 HD to 17 HD, getting three ability increases (at 8, 12, and 16 HD). We can rewrite his stats as Str 15+2, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 13+1, which is the elite array with +3 thrown in, thus following the rules exactly. So what does this mean? It appears to me that racial HD advancement does not lead to ability increases, but class HD advancement does, despite the written rules. But if that's true, why include racial HD in the calculation at all? Why not base ability advancement solely on class HD? The Hound Archon Hero does not (he has 11 levels of paladin, which would result in only 2 ability score increases, not 3). And what if, in theory, you added class levels to a monster and then advanced it? (Not that I'm saying one should do such a thing, but hey, you never know :) ) Basically, there is no really solid ruling that is consistent with the way the monsters were statted out, so what do you think is the best way to handle this?
Colmarr 03-21-05, 01:13 AM	I would treat the "advanced" examples as examples only. The designers forgot to make the requisite ability adjustments. The rules themselves are relatively clear that you gain an ability bonus when your gain a HD divisible by 4 (ie. 4, 8, 12, etc). If you ignore that rule, creatures which never change size, or that change size after a divide-by-4 threshold, are missing an ability adustment.
Gilean 03-21-05, 12:26 PM	It also happens in the free adventures. Monsters are always ignored :weep: Hound archons aren't monsters, BTW. They are GOOD. They can't be monsters, now can they :rolleyes: