Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CelestialBarbarian 04-13-07, 02:34 AM	I've got a feral minotaur of legend (CR 7) that I want to advance to CR 15. Normally a minotaur advances by class levels, so I could, say, just give it 8 levels of barbarian. That would give it 14 hit dice. It's the son of a epic (abomination) minotaur without class levels, however, so I was thinking I might like to keep it more "minotaurish" by advancing it with hit dice instead. According to the Monster Manual, a monstrous humanoid advances 1 CR for every 3 hit dice. Raising the CR by 8 would then mean raising the hit dice by 8*3=24, to a total of 30. 30 HD seems a bit much for a CR 15 creature, and that would certainly give it much better hit points, and saving throws, and many more feats, than giving it 8 levels of barbarian. I suppose since the monster of legend template changes the type to outsider, I could treat the additional hit dice as outsider hit dice for CR, and just give it 16 more hit dice to raise the CR from 7 to 15, since outsider CR advances 1 for every 2 hit dice. Then it would have 22 hit dice instead of 30. That could represent a middle way between the first two alternatives. It would still have substantially more hit points, better saves, and more feats than the barbarian route. What do you think? Thanks. :)
Amadan 04-13-07, 10:56 AM	Because it's type is changed to Outsider, I think the second option is correct: use advancement rules for an outsider and give it 22HD.
CelestialBarbarian 04-13-07, 12:36 PM	Because it's type is changed to Outsider, I think the second option is correct: use advancement rules for an outsider and give it 22HD. Thanks. :)
Zaistars69 04-13-07, 01:51 PM	Don't forget if you give it barbarian levels (ie pc class levels) it is assumed you will equip him like a character of his level. And you will increase his stats to the elit array. That is part of why the CR gets raised so fast for PC classes.
CelestialBarbarian 04-13-07, 03:21 PM	Don't forget if you give it barbarian levels (ie pc class levels) it is assumed you will equip him like a character of his level. And you will increase his stats to the elit array. That is part of why the CR gets raised so fast for PC classes. Since treasure is based on CR rather than hit dice, shouldn't a creature with a CR of 15 have the same items regardless of which way it gets to CR 15? I hadn't thought about switching to the elite array, but it hardly seems worth an extra 16-24 hit dice at CR 15.
Zaistars69 04-13-07, 03:45 PM	No, the NPCs get more than twice the gp that monsters do. It makes a pretty big difference but mayhap not that many HD. Also one of the reasons the MM says to be careful when advancing monsters because sometimes they become overbalanced. Especially when they start changing size categories. Good times. Oh, pg 51 dmg for monster treasure, and pg 127 for NPC treasure value. Sill nowhere near what PCs get but still better.
CelestialBarbarian 04-13-07, 04:34 PM	No, the NPCs get more than twice the gp that monsters do. It makes a pretty big difference but mayhap not that many HD. Also one of the reasons the MM says to be careful when advancing monsters because sometimes they become overbalanced. Especially when they start changing size categories. Good times. Oh, pg 51 dmg for monster treasure, and pg 127 for NPC treasure value. Sill nowhere near what PCs get but still better. Thanks for the references. On page 51 I find: Monsters With Classes Many monsters advance by adding class levels (see the Monster Manual). To determine treasure for monsters with class levels, first give then equipment. Use Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value (page 127) and use just their class levels to determine the value of their equipment. Then generate their treasure according to their monster entry and the rules under Building a Treasure, below. I couldn't find this passage, incidentally, in the SRD. Anyway, if I'm reading the passage correctly, if you were to take a CR 7 minotaur and advance it to CR 15 by adding 8 barbarian levels, you'd get equipment equal to that of an 8th level barbarian, worth 9400 gp (Table 4-23, page 127), and add that to the (average) treasure for a monster of CR 7, 2600 gp (Table 3-3, page 51), for total of 12,000 gp. If I simply advanced the minotaur from CR 7 to CR 15 by adding hit dice, it would get a total (average) treasure value of 22,000 gp (Table 3-3). So unless I'm reading this wrong, the creature would actually get more treasure going the hit dice route than going the class level route. Note that if I stripped out all of the racial hit dice and just gave it 15 levels of barbarian, it would get 59,000 gp. I must say that it's not immediately obvious to me why an NPC with a combination of racial hit dice and class levels should get less treasure than an NPC with only hit dice, or why an NPC with only racial hit dice should get less treasure than an NPC with only class levels. :confused: Edit: As far as the physical advancement goes, if I do advance the minotaur by hit dice I don't plan to increase the size. I think though that an advancement of 24 hit dice to get to CR 15 does sound like a case of "overbalancing" as you say. I'm not sure about advancing by 16 hit dice. That still provides far more hit points than 8 barbarian levels, not to mention more BAB, base saves, feats and ability score adjustments, but it's not as extreme as advancing by 24 hit dice.
Morwen 04-13-07, 04:45 PM	Anyway, if I'm reading the passage correctly, if you were to take a CR 7 minotaur and advance it to CR 15 by adding 8 barbarian levesl, you'd get equipment equal to that of an 8th level barbarian, worth 9400 gp (Table 4-23, page 127), and add that to the (average) treasure for a monster of CR 7, 2600 gp (Table 3-3, page 51), for total of 12,000 gp. Not quite. It would get equipment according to that of an 8th-level Barbarian, and additional treasure equal to that of a CR 15 encounter. At least, that's how I read it :)
CelestialBarbarian 04-13-07, 04:55 PM	Not quite. It would get equipment according to that of an 8th-level Barbarian, and additional treasure equal to that of a CR 15 encounter. At least, that's how I read it :) Thanks. I thought, based on Zaistars69's optimistic assessment of the amount of additional treasure the creature would get with 8 levels of barbarian versus +CR 8 of racial hit dice, that he might be interpreting the rules the way you do. I don't see any support for it in the text, however, and it doesn't make any sense to me that a creature with class levels would get to "double dip." :)
Morwen 04-13-07, 05:01 PM	I guess added equipment value would be what those monsters get in exchange for getting less hit points, less base attack bonus, less base save bonus, less feats, and less skill points :)
CelestialBarbarian 04-13-07, 05:09 PM	I guess added equipment value would be what those monsters get in exchange for getting less hit points, less base attack bonus, less base save bonus, less feats, and less skill points :) Yes, it could provide a balance, assuming that the DM actually gives the monster with just racial hit dice equipment it can use out of its treasure value. I think it's very common, however, for DMs to just have all of the racial hit dice treasure lying around as non-equipment so that it doesn't help the creature against the party. Anyway, to me it makes the most sense that if you have a creature that's comprised of a CR 7 "monster" and an 8th-level "character" you'd give it the treasure of a CR 7 monster plus the treasure of an 8th-level character, not the treasure of a CR 15 montser plus the treasure of an 8th-level character. :)
Runepriest 04-13-07, 09:15 PM	Yes, it could provide a balance, assuming that the DM actually gives the monster with just racial hit dice equipment it can use out of its treasure value. I think it's very common, however, for DMs to just have all of the racial hit dice treasure lying around as non-equipment so that it doesn't help the creature against the party. Anyway, to me it makes the most sense that if you have a creature that's comprised of a CR 7 "monster" and an 8th-level "character" you'd give it the treasure of a CR 7 monster plus the treasure of an 8th-level character, not the treasure of a CR 15 monster plus the treasure of an 8th-level character. :) I agree with you, for it would have CR 7 stuff lying around, and using equipment it gained as a character
runestar 04-13-07, 09:57 PM	No, the NPCs get more than twice the gp that monsters do. Not necessarily. A balor gets quad the standard treasure, or 320,000gp worth of treasure, in addition to his vorpal longsword and flaming whip. Taking into account about half reserved for gold and gems, that still works out to be around 160000gp worth of magic gear for him, easily outstripping what any other npc of his cr gets.:) As for cr, you could try basing it off the goristo and see how your own creation stacks up, as some sort of rough guideline. I think about 20 HD should suffice to constitute a cr15.
Morwen 04-14-07, 04:04 AM	Not necessarily. A balor gets quad the standard treasure, or 320,000gp worth of treasure My copy of the Monster Manual says standard coins, double goods, standard items (plus the sword and whip), which is only just above standard treasure.
runestar 04-14-07, 08:00 AM	My copy of the Monster Manual says standard coins, double goods, standard items (plus the sword and whip), which is only just above standard treasure. Correct. The standard treasure of a cr20 foe is 80,000gp. Standard coins = 80,000gp worth of coins Double goods = 2*80000gp or 160,000gp worth of goods. Standard items = 80,000gp worth of magic gear. I suppose you can always use your existing gold to purchase additional magic gear as you deem fit. Either way, it carries about 320000gp worth of treasure, though its death throes ability tends to sharply reduce this yield.:( I used to think that it meant 20,000gp worth of coins and items, and 40,000gp of goods. But my doubts was raised when I saw the Molydeus entry in fiendish codex 1 and saw that it got 240,000gp worth of treasure(effectively quad standard), in addition to his +1 dancing vorpal greataxe.:) That basically means the monsters I faced have been shortchanged since day 1. Have I interpreted this correctly?:confused: Ironic that it is the new stat block which has taught me some new things(considering how I was condemning it after seeing it in MM4).
Morwen 04-14-07, 04:05 PM	I think that's supposed to be 80,000gp total among all 3 types, not 80,000gp each.. Anyway, as for the Monsters with class levels treasure problem, I think I have a decent solution. Say you have a base CR 7 monster with 8 CRs worth of Barbarian levels. Give it treasure equal to that of a CR 7 monster, plus treasure equal to that of a CR 15 NPC, minus the treasure of a CR 7 NPC. That gives it monster treasure for the first 7 CRs, and NPC treasure for the last 8 CRs, putting it between CR 15 monster and CR 15 NPC overall (but does not let the monster get "double" for CRs 1 through 7).
CelestialBarbarian 04-14-07, 04:14 PM	I think that's supposed to be 80,000gp total among all 3 types, not 80,000gp each.. Anyway, as for the Monsters with class levels treasure problem, I think I have a decent solution. Say you have a base CR 7 monster with 8 CRs worth of Barbarian levels. Give it treasure equal to that of a CR 7 monster, plus treasure equal to that of a CR 15 NPC, minus the treasure of a CR 7 NPC. That gives it monster treasure for the first 7 CRs, and NPC treasure for the last 8 CRs, putting it between CR 15 monster and CR 15 NPC overall (but does not let the monster get "double" for CRs 1 through 7). Well let's see. A CR 7 monster gets 2600 gp. A 15th-level NPC gets 59,000. Combining the two totals 61,600. Subtracting the treasure for an NPC of 7th-level NPC, 7200, leaves 54,400. I'm not confident that this number is any more "correct" than any of the others. It seems goofy to have one system for treasure of creatures with racial hit dice and another for creatures with class levels. :confused:
Morwen 04-14-07, 08:35 PM	I used to think that it meant 20,000gp worth of coins and items, and 40,000gp of goods. But my doubts was raised when I saw the Molydeus entry in fiendish codex 1 and saw that it got 240,000gp worth of treasure(effectively quad standard), in addition to his +1 dancing vorpal greataxe.:) The Molydeus gets quadruple standard treasure because it's specifically listed as getting quadruple standard treasure (in the "treasure" section after the statblock) :)
runestar 04-14-07, 10:43 PM	Does not not seem odd that a modydeus is able to accumulate much more treasure than the almighty balor?:P
CelestialBarbarian 04-15-07, 12:34 AM	Does not not seem odd that a modydeus is able to accumulate much more treasure than the almighty balor?:P R: Not, not. C: Who's there? R: Molydeus. C: Molydeus who? R: Molydeus with more treasure than the almight balor. ;)
Lina_Inverse 04-15-07, 02:58 AM	Also monsters roll treasure, while PC classes monsters get GP to spend. A huge diffrence. A minotaur advanced may have treasure designed for a wizard or rogue. While the PC equiped monster is equipped with a metric ton of fighter gear.
CelestialBarbarian 04-16-07, 10:10 AM	Also monsters roll treasure, while PC classes monsters get GP to spend. A huge diffrence. A minotaur advanced may have treasure designed for a wizard or rogue. While the PC equiped monster is equipped with a metric ton of fighter gear. Yeah, it's crazy.
Zaistars69 04-16-07, 10:44 AM	Thanks for the references. On page 51 I find: I couldn't find this passage, incidentally, in the SRD. Anyway, if I'm reading the passage correctly, if you were to take a CR 7 minotaur and advance it to CR 15 by adding 8 barbarian levels, you'd get equipment equal to that of an 8th level barbarian, worth 9400 gp (Table 4-23, page 127), and add that to the (average) treasure for a monster of CR 7, 2600 gp (Table 3-3, page 51), for total of 12,000 gp. If I simply advanced the minotaur from CR 7 to CR 15 by adding hit dice, it would get a total (average) treasure value of 22,000 gp (Table 3-3). So unless I'm reading this wrong, the creature would actually get more treasure going the hit dice route than going the class level route. Note that if I stripped out all of the racial hit dice and just gave it 15 levels of barbarian, it would get 59,000 gp. I must say that it's not immediately obvious to me why an NPC with a combination of racial hit dice and class levels should get less treasure than an NPC with only hit dice, or why an NPC with only racial hit dice should get less treasure than an NPC with only class levels. :confused: Edit: As far as the physical advancement goes, if I do advance the minotaur by hit dice I don't plan to increase the size. I think though that an advancement of 24 hit dice to get to CR 15 does sound like a case of "overbalancing" as you say. I'm not sure about advancing by 16 hit dice. That still provides far more hit points than 8 barbarian levels, not to mention more BAB, base saves, feats and ability score adjustments, but it's not as extreme as advancing by 24 hit dice. hey looks like you are right. I missed that part with my selective vision. I tend to focus on one section and move on. It looks like you do in fact determine treasure for it's original CR then give it treasure for it's chr levels. Weird. I would probably Equip it as a an NPC of it's CR if is suppose to be a major enemy type or as a regular monster if it is suppose to take a minor role. But that's just me.
CelestialBarbarian 04-16-07, 01:38 PM	hey looks like you are right. I missed that part with my selective vision. I tend to focus on one section and move on. It looks like you do in fact determine treasure for it's original CR then give it treasure for it's chr levels. Weird. I would probably Equip it as a an NPC of it's CR if is suppose to be a major enemy type or as a regular monster if it is suppose to take a minor role. But that's just me. I ended up pretty much just winging it. I'd already given the father (the epic abomination minotaur) coins equal to the average gp value of a 25th-level encounter (it has a CR of 25), plus two really nice magic items (large +5 greataxe and +4 amulet of mighty fists) it could use, plus two weaker magic items (+2 bracers of armor, bringing the AC to an even 50), and a +2 cloak of resistance) and then a host of low-level magic items (mostly wonderous items, but a few rods, wands, weapons and suits of armor) for which he had no personal use, along with a bunch of masterwork and ordinary arms and armor. I also tossed in about 25,000 gp worth of lesser coins (200,000 sp and 500,000 cp) that the party probably won't bother to take because of the low value of the excessive bulk. I figure that the father minotaur has been collecting stuff from hapless adventurers for the past millenium or so in which he has been incarcerated in the labyrinth, so that's why he has tons of low-value coins and non-magical items, as well as a bunch of low-level items he can't use himself. Then I figure that he some magic items to its sons, but items that it didn't need. So a son gets a large +3 greataxe, a +2 amulet of mighty fists, +2 bracers of armor, a +2 cloak of resistance and a +2 ring of protection (the father already has his own innate +8 deflection bonus to AC, so he doesn't need a ring). I figure that anything else they come upon the father takes from his own hoard, so I didn't bother to give them anything else. What do you think? As far as the "monster" v. "NPC" conundrum, it might make sense to say that a creature like a purple worm just has totally random treasure, but a dragon or minotaur would have some ability to select treasure that it particularly values. For a dragon that might well be mostly coins and gems, but even the dragon would want some things like magic items that could enhance its abilities (or shore up its weaknesses). A minotaur (or centaur, as another example of a creature that would get lower "monster" treasure before getting any class levels) though would certainly want to use some of its coins to buy magic items it could use. So maybe unintelligent creatures should use the random treasure table by CR, and everything else should use the NPC table.
Zaistars69 04-16-07, 01:53 PM	sounds like you handled it OK. Just be careful the gear your lower level guys have doesn't increas the CR unless you mean it too. then again, if the main boss guy has decreased treasure (because of dolign it out to his boys) everything should even out.
CelestialBarbarian 04-16-07, 02:01 PM	sounds like you handled it OK. Just be careful the gear your lower level guys have doesn't increas the CR unless you mean it too. then again, if the main boss guy has decreased treasure (because of dolign it out to his boys) everything should even out. Thanks. I'm not sure if a few items like that really increases the CR or not. I've long thought that a creature should have some of its treasure in the form of beneficial magic items anyway. By the way, I ended up working up the statistics for the son with 22 hit dice, and then decided it was a bit too powerful, so I toned it back down to 20 hit dice as Runestar suggested. The value of the feral and monster of legend templates really escalates with an increase in hit dice from 6 to 22 or even 20. Even the CR 15 son has more hit points than the party's main melee guy, although not more after he gets mass bear's endurance, and especially not more than when he gets mass bear's endurance and rages. Hmm, I forgot about that. Maybe I should go back to 22 HD? :D
runestar 04-16-07, 10:53 PM	sounds like you handled it OK. Just be careful the gear your lower level guys have doesn't increas the CR unless you mean it too. then again, if the main boss guy has decreased treasure (because of dolign it out to his boys) everything should even out. Yeah. I though a creature's cr already factored in any gear it would possibly be accrued?:confused:
Zaistars69 04-17-07, 10:29 AM	Yeah. I though a creature's cr already factored in any gear it would possibly be accrued?:confused: Not quite. It is possible for a CR 15 creature to have 0 gear if you do the whole roll for treasure thing and you roll exceptionally low. On the other hand it could have several very high dollar value items if you roll high consistantly. No system is perfect and you kind of have to take things as they come, wing it.
runestar 04-17-07, 10:35 AM	According to the DMG, rolling for random treasure is merely an option. It also allows for you to spend your treasure equipping your npc any way you like. Which is obviously the better option, since it allows more room for customization. :)
Zaistars69 04-17-07, 11:09 AM	According to the DMG, rolling for random treasure is merely an option. It also allows for you to spend your treasure equipping your npc any way you like. Which is obviously the better option, since it allows more room for customization. :) Well of course you can customize it however you want, and to clerify I'm not talking about NPCs I was talking about monsters. But it also allows for randomness so eehhh. I do agree that it is a better option to customize NPC gear, just not necessarily monster treasure (with the exception with things like maybe a lich, or vampire).
CelestialBarbarian 04-17-07, 02:15 PM	Yeah. I though a creature's cr already factored in any gear it would possibly be accrued?:confused: I'm not really sure. In the old days of original D&D we often didn't even bother to roll up treasure for a critter until after the PCs killed. This often applied to humanoid types of creatures who might have been able to use some of the magic items the DM randomly rolled. Sometimes you'd get pretty silly results, as in killing a creature that had a normal broadsword only to find a vorpal broadsword in its treasure. It's been decades since I DMed like that. I've long routinely given almost any creature that could use items some of the value of its treasure in items it can use. Sometimes I will give a creature its random coins and gems, but select items it can use if I roll items for it. Sometimes I also allow it to use some of its coin value to upgrade the items to better version. With multiple humanoids I'll often just give them items I find appropriate to their level, and assign only a smattering of coins--similar to what I've done with the minotaur sons here, but with at least a little bit of coinage too. :) I really have no idea whether the authors meant to include useful magic items in the CR calculation or not. A could of lucky random rolls could make one creature with totally random treasure substantially more powerful than another creature of the same type and CR which got more average (or poor) rolls. The mere fact that the authors provided one table for random creature treasure and another table for NPC equipment with much greater values makes me think something is terribly wrong. Either we're interpreting the tables wrong or the tables are way out of wack with each other. :confused:
hailtiki 04-17-07, 04:29 PM	I have a somewhat similar question. Pardon my ignorance if I've got something really wrong. My question involves advancement of something like a Hobgoblin, for example (or an Orc, etc). The MM lists the Hobgoblin as having 1 level in "Warrior" and is a CR 1/2. The section on advancement by level states that NPC classes (such as Warrior) always count as "unassociated levels" (I believe is the word it used) meaning that each level increases CR by 1/2. So, a 2nd level Warrior Hobgoblin would be CR 1, 3rd level would be CR 1.5, etc. Question is: what do I do about equipment? According to the chart on p127 (The NPC Gear Value chart), a 2nd level NPC has 2000g worth of equipment, but I hardly believe that's relevant for NPC classes (Warrior, Adept, etc)... that means a CR 1 would have 2000g? No way... Especially since the standard CR 1/2 Hobgoblin starts with only 40g worth of equipment (Studded Leather and a Longsword), plus treasure, when the chart says a level 1 should have 900g. 2nd level isn't really a good example... but, say I advance the Hobgoblin several levels... he should probably have something better than studded leather and a longsword. But how do I know what is an appropriate amount to spend on him?
Zaistars69 04-17-07, 04:32 PM	I have a somewhat similar question. Pardon my ignorance if I've got something really wrong. My question involves advancement of something like a Hobgoblin, for example (or an Orc, etc). The MM lists the Hobgoblin as having 1 level in "Warrior" and is a CR 1/2. The section on advancement by level states that NPC classes (such as Warrior) always count as "unassociated levels" (I believe is the word it used) meaning that each level increases CR by 1/2. So, a 2nd level Warrior Hobgoblin would be CR 1, 3rd level would be CR 1.5, etc. Question is: what do I do about equipment? According to the chart on p127 (The NPC Gear Value chart), a 2nd level NPC has 2000g worth of equipment, but I hardly believe that's relevant for NPC classes (Warrior, Adept, etc)... that means a CR 1 would have 2000g? No way... Especially since the standard CR 1/2 Hobgoblin starts with only 40g worth of equipment (Studded Leather and a Longsword), plus treasure, when the chart says a level 1 should have 900g. 2nd level isn't really a good example... but, say I advance the Hobgoblin several levels... he should probably have something better than studded leather and a longsword. But how do I know what is an appropriate amount to spend on him? Read back a bit. that chart for NPC gear is for Elite NPCs only. That's NPCs with regular PC classes (ie. barbarian, fighter, wizard, sword sage, etc.). For the basic warrior, adept, etc, use their listed plus CR treasure.
hailtiki 04-17-07, 08:41 PM	Ok, that's what I figured about the NPC Gear Value chart. When you say "listed plus CR treasure", do you mean the listed equipment (longsword and studded leather in the example of the hobgoblin) and treasure (standard treasure for the hobgoblin) for whatever CR I advance the hobgoblin to?
Zaistars69 04-19-07, 10:43 AM	Ok, that's what I figured about the NPC Gear Value chart. When you say "listed plus CR treasure", do you mean the listed equipment (longsword and studded leather in the example of the hobgoblin) and treasure (standard treasure for the hobgoblin) for whatever CR I advance the hobgoblin to? yes, as long as you treat the hobgob as a regular joe warrior. If he becomes an elite character (pc levels, elite array stats, etc) than that all changes.