Advancing a Dragon Turtle [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advancing a Dragon Turtle [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thorsbjorn
05-19-07, 09:20 PM I'm advancing a dragon turtle from 12 to 36 hit dice (CR 21). The base dragon turtle's breath weapon does 12d6 points of fire (steam) damage. In advancing the dragon turtle's breath weapon should I:

1. advance it to 36d6 because a dragon turtle's breath weapon does 1d6/hit die;
2. advance it to somewhere from 16 dice to 20 dice because that's about the standard range of damage for the breath weapon of a gargantuan dragon whose huge size does 12 dice;
3. advance it to 16d6 because that's what an increase in size by one category would do to a natural weapon;
4. don't advance it at all (other than to increase the DC for the increase in Constitution bonus) because there's no provision for advancing the special abilities of creatures when you advance them by hit dice;
5. advance it to 24d6 because that's the CR + 3, and the base dragon turtle's breath weapon of 12d6 is also equal to the CR +3.
6. something else.

Thanks! :)
runestar
05-19-07, 10:27 PM By RAW, the breath weapon damage should not scale at all. Though you should improve the damage nonetheless, since 12d6 is pathetically weak for a cr21.

I am not sure what it should be improved to though. But I noticed that its breath weapon is just slightly better than that of a gold dragon (cr9). So I suppose you could use a 21 old gold dragon's breath weapon (16d10??) as a gauge. That roughly works out to ... 25d6?:P
Thorsbjorn
05-19-07, 10:55 PM By RAW, the breath weapon damage should not scale at all. Though you should improve the damage nonetheless, since 12d6 is pathetically weak for a cr21.

I am not sure what it should be improved to though. But I noticed that its breath weapon is just slightly better than that of a gold dragon (cr9). So I suppose you could use a 21 old gold dragon's breath weapon (16d10??) as a gauge. That roughly works out to ... 25d6?:P

Ah, very good analysis as always, Runestar! Rather than just looking at dice of damage, you looked at average damage. Thus the 12d6 of the dragon turtle falls between the 6d10 of the young gold and the 8d10 of the juvenile gold. The young gold conveniently has the same CR as the dragon turtle. Then you went to the gold dragon with the same CR as the advanced dragon turtle, and old gold, which has a breath weapon that does 16d10, which has roughly the same average as 25d6.

I notice that the 25d6 is only 1 off from method 5 above, giving the breath weapon a number of d6 equal to the CR +3. So that does feel like it's more in the ballpark than either the 16d6 or the 36d6. I'd actually put 18d6 on the computer sheet (I use the Singin' Sheet), but now I think I'm going to raise it to 24d6 or 25d6. Thanks! :)

Edit: By the way, I added 5 of the dragon turtle's 6 points of ability score increase to Constitution, along with the +4 increase for going from huge to gargantuan. I also gave it Ability Focus (breath weapon). Altogther they increased its breath weapon DC from 21 to 28, thus making it at least somewhat challenging for the 20th-21st-level party.
runestar
05-19-07, 11:19 PM Well, it is fire damage, one of the more readily resisted elements there is. Rogue should have little problem making that evasion save as well. But probably enough to give the PCs a scare when they see you roll that fistful of dice....:)
Thorsbjorn
05-19-07, 11:51 PM Well, it is fire damage, one of the more readily resisted elements there is. Rogue should have little problem making that evasion save as well. But probably enough to give the PCs a scare when they see you roll that fistful of dice....:)

That reminds me of "Fist Full of Dollars"--or "Fist Full of Yen." :D

You're right about it being fire damage--the most commonly defended against. The cleric has fire resistance on his armor, and the wizard walks around with a contingent protection from fire. The expert treasure hunter that the party hired can fail the save only on a 1, and of course has evasion, so almost certainly won't get hurt at all. You're right that the fist full of dice will at least be exciting. :D
Thorsbjorn
05-20-07, 10:30 AM On other thread:

Hey there Thorsbjorn! :)

I would advance it to 36d6 for a number of reasons.

1. Even if you roll above average numbers, chances are it won't kill anyone but the wizard.

2. Epic characters have many more ways to escape or rescind death.

3. The Dragon Turtle really needs some firepower at that level, otherwise the PCs are just going to make mincemeat from it, and it can only use the breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds.

4. Many PCs have some sort of fire resistance at that level.

Hi Upper_Krust! Thanks for the reply!

That was my original inclination too. Once I tossed in the Maximize Breath feat from Draconomicon, however, I was looking at the breath weapon doing 252 points of damage. That got me to wondering if the party's sorceress, and wizard, and the wizard's dragon familiar/cohort could survive even on a successful saving throw. Actually the faimilar/cohort has improved evasion, so it would survive. I think with contingent energy resistance, mass bear's endurance and empowered false life the sorceress would survive a single blast on a successful saving throw. I think the wizard with mass bear's endurance and false life would probably survive, and if he has a contingent protection from fire going, as he sometimes does, then he would survive on a successful saving throw and maybe even just on a failed saving throw too. The sorceress would certainly die on a failed saving throw. The dragon (a silver dragon, who takes an extra 50% damage from fire) would take 5 hp more than she has, but since she gets the same mass bear's endurance as everyone else in the party, she woul actually survive with 12 hit points.

Since the party has access to at least two mass heal spells per day typically, I think you're right that even with Maximize Breath that the 36d6 would be a suitable challenge; if it doesn't kill them outright, the cleric will simply heal 190 hit points on everybody during his next turn.

Edit: I meant to mention that someone on the epic boards suggested that since the breath weapon of a dragon turtle, CR 9, does about the same average damage as a CR 9 gold dragon's breath, that the CR 21 dragon turtle's breath should do about the same damage on average as a CR 21 gold dragon's breath, which would be 25d6 for the dragon turtle. Any thoughts? Thanks! :)

Any comments yourself, Runestar? Thanks! :)
Gnarl
05-20-07, 04:37 PM I would go for the 36d6 and keep it CR 21 :D.

The gold dragon with the same CR has a whole lot more abilities than the turtle: higher AC, more melee damage, spells, spell resistance and a brain.

In any event, as you probably know if you're playing at those levels, the rules for advancing monsters are kind of crap, especially at those levels.

If you really want to be a rotten bastard, I would suggest a spellwarped version of the dragon :D.
Thorsbjorn
05-20-07, 04:51 PM I would go for the 36d6 and keep it CR 21 :D.

The gold dragon with the same CR has a whole lot more abilities than the turtle: higher AC, more melee damage, spells, spell resistance and a brain.

In any event, as you probably know if you're playing at those levels, the rules for advancing monsters are kind of crap, especially at those levels.

If you really want to be a rotten bastard, I would suggest a spellwarped version of the dragon :D.

While the dragon turtle is actually a bit smarter than your average human, I agree that its intelligence pales by comparison with that of a true dragon of CR 21. I agree too that the true dragon has all that you say, as well as additional natural attaks (wings and tail) that the dragon turtle doesn't get. I also agree that the advancement rules work poorly: they end to produce creatures with lots of hit points, lousy armor class, and useless special abilities.

Where can I find the spellwarped template? I doubt I'll apply it as the dragon turtle isn't a main encounter, but I'd like to check it out at least to see what you're talking about. Thanks for the feedback, Gnarl! :)
runestar
05-20-07, 10:54 PM Spellwarped is in MM3. Gives the monster sr and the ability to gain a +4 enhancement bonus to any stat for 1 minute when a spell fails to penetrate its sr (which is 10+HD) - so yeah, that will happen quite often...:P

You might also want to consider some means of flight...or at least improving your mobility...
Thorsbjorn
05-22-07, 11:34 AM Spellwarped is in MM3. Gives the monster sr and the ability to gain a +4 enhancement bonus to any stat for 1 minute when a spell fails to penetrate its sr (which is 10+HD) - so yeah, that will happen quite often...:P

You might also want to consider some means of flight...or at least improving your mobility...

Oh, thanks. I stopped buying Monster Manuals with Monster Manual II (or technically with the 3.5 Monster Manual if you want to go in chronological order:P). I've yet to use most of the monsters in the Monster Manual, as most of my 5-year campaign has focused around human villains. With my updating of Maze of the Riddling Minotaur, I'm adding 16 to the list (in advanced forms), plus an advanced dragon turtle and an advanced kraken for the voyage there. I think the only things I've used from MM II are the two templates I've used for the labyrinth too, monster of legend and spell-stitched.

A flying dragon turtle? Wouldn't that be Gamera?!

Gamera!
Gamera!
Gamera is really neat!
Gamera is full of meat!
We believe in Gamera!
Darth Sephiroth
05-22-07, 02:46 PM There is always my Ardorath (http://www.freewebs.com/avantiar/monsters.htm) that is one of the unholy terrors of my Avantiar campaign. My players hated dealing with him as he liked to play with his food.
Thorsbjorn
05-22-07, 04:11 PM There is always my Ardorath (http://www.freewebs.com/avantiar/monsters.htm) that is one of the unholy terrors of my Avantiar campaign. My players hated dealing with him as he liked to play with his food.

Thanks for the suggestion. How did you get him up to a CR of 27?

How did you get the natural armor up to +45? I have it at +21. Did you just throw it in?

I hadn't thought about Awaken Spell Resistance. SR 36 would certainly make it tougher. Maybe I'll drop Ability Focus (breath weapon) and take Awaken Spell Resistance. I've given it Devastating Critical (and all the prerequisites) and Maximize Breath.
Darth Sephiroth
05-22-07, 04:55 PM Extra feats, HD, and I think I gave him an extra size increase. Also the Elite Array of stats.

As a side note, I use the extra things from the Advancing Dragons section of the Draconomicon which adds 1 point of natural armor for every 2 extra Dragon HD added. Fun feats for him come from the Draconomicon and Stormwrack and I used several to increase his swim speed to something truely frightening.
Thorsbjorn
05-23-07, 12:54 AM Extra feats, HD, and I think I gave him an extra size increase. Also the Elite Array of stats.

As a side note, I use the extra things from the Advancing Dragons section of the Draconomicon which adds 1 point of natural armor for every 2 extra Dragon HD added. Fun feats for him come from the Draconomicon and Stormwrack and I used several to increase his swim speed to something truely frightening.

I didn't notice the Rapid Swimming feat in its entry. Good call there. I notice now that a dragon turtle's so slow it might not be able to keep up with a ship it attacks. :P Somehow though you got its base (land) speed up from 20' to 30' and it's swim speed from 30' to 70'. Rapid Swimming increases the swim speed by only 20'.

Well you've got him listed as gargantuan, which is only one size increase. The natural weapon damage went up by only one size category too.

If you just advance it straight out to 36 hit dice, including the +1 for size increase, you get CR 22. I guess the elite array would increase it to 23. I suppose you could raise it another 1 for increasing the land speed 10' and the swim speed another 20'. So maybe that's up to CR 24.

At 12 HD it gets 5 feats. Adding 24 HD give it another 8 feats for a total of 13. You gave it 14 feats, so that's one bonus feat. I guess you could maybe raise the CR by 1 for a bonus feat--especially if it's a good bonus feat like Awaken Spell Resistance. With an SR of 36 even the wizard, the highest-level member of the party, would have only a 50% chance of overcoming its SR. That might bring it up to CR 25.

Do you mean the "Advanced Dragon" section on pages 99-100 of Draconomicon? That appears to apply only to dragons with age categories. You actually added another +1 per HD instead of per 2 HD. I guess adding another +24 to the natural armor could account for the remaining +2 CR. :)
Darth Sephiroth
05-23-07, 06:09 PM One of the feats I'd modified was to mess with one of the ones in the Draconomicon and exchanged the fly speed increase for a swim speed increase.
Thorsbjorn
05-24-07, 09:06 AM One of the feats I'd modified was to mess with one of the ones in the Draconomicon and exchanged the fly speed increase for a swim speed increase.

If you took Improved Fly and turned it into Improved Swim, and gave it to him in addition to Rapid Swimming, that would get you there. You didn't list it, but that would be a second bonus feat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 05-19-07, 09:20 PM	I'm advancing a dragon turtle from 12 to 36 hit dice (CR 21). The base dragon turtle's breath weapon does 12d6 points of fire (steam) damage. In advancing the dragon turtle's breath weapon should I: 1. advance it to 36d6 because a dragon turtle's breath weapon does 1d6/hit die; 2. advance it to somewhere from 16 dice to 20 dice because that's about the standard range of damage for the breath weapon of a gargantuan dragon whose huge size does 12 dice; 3. advance it to 16d6 because that's what an increase in size by one category would do to a natural weapon; 4. don't advance it at all (other than to increase the DC for the increase in Constitution bonus) because there's no provision for advancing the special abilities of creatures when you advance them by hit dice; 5. advance it to 24d6 because that's the CR + 3, and the base dragon turtle's breath weapon of 12d6 is also equal to the CR +3. 6. something else. Thanks! :)
runestar 05-19-07, 10:27 PM	By RAW, the breath weapon damage should not scale at all. Though you should improve the damage nonetheless, since 12d6 is pathetically weak for a cr21. I am not sure what it should be improved to though. But I noticed that its breath weapon is just slightly better than that of a gold dragon (cr9). So I suppose you could use a 21 old gold dragon's breath weapon (16d10??) as a gauge. That roughly works out to ... 25d6?:P
Thorsbjorn 05-19-07, 10:55 PM	By RAW, the breath weapon damage should not scale at all. Though you should improve the damage nonetheless, since 12d6 is pathetically weak for a cr21. I am not sure what it should be improved to though. But I noticed that its breath weapon is just slightly better than that of a gold dragon (cr9). So I suppose you could use a 21 old gold dragon's breath weapon (16d10??) as a gauge. That roughly works out to ... 25d6?:P Ah, very good analysis as always, Runestar! Rather than just looking at dice of damage, you looked at average damage. Thus the 12d6 of the dragon turtle falls between the 6d10 of the young gold and the 8d10 of the juvenile gold. The young gold conveniently has the same CR as the dragon turtle. Then you went to the gold dragon with the same CR as the advanced dragon turtle, and old gold, which has a breath weapon that does 16d10, which has roughly the same average as 25d6. I notice that the 25d6 is only 1 off from method 5 above, giving the breath weapon a number of d6 equal to the CR +3. So that does feel like it's more in the ballpark than either the 16d6 or the 36d6. I'd actually put 18d6 on the computer sheet (I use the Singin' Sheet), but now I think I'm going to raise it to 24d6 or 25d6. Thanks! :) Edit: By the way, I added 5 of the dragon turtle's 6 points of ability score increase to Constitution, along with the +4 increase for going from huge to gargantuan. I also gave it Ability Focus (breath weapon). Altogther they increased its breath weapon DC from 21 to 28, thus making it at least somewhat challenging for the 20th-21st-level party.
runestar 05-19-07, 11:19 PM	Well, it is fire damage, one of the more readily resisted elements there is. Rogue should have little problem making that evasion save as well. But probably enough to give the PCs a scare when they see you roll that fistful of dice....:)
Thorsbjorn 05-19-07, 11:51 PM	Well, it is fire damage, one of the more readily resisted elements there is. Rogue should have little problem making that evasion save as well. But probably enough to give the PCs a scare when they see you roll that fistful of dice....:) That reminds me of "Fist Full of Dollars"--or "Fist Full of Yen." :D You're right about it being fire damage--the most commonly defended against. The cleric has fire resistance on his armor, and the wizard walks around with a contingent protection from fire. The expert treasure hunter that the party hired can fail the save only on a 1, and of course has evasion, so almost certainly won't get hurt at all. You're right that the fist full of dice will at least be exciting. :D
Thorsbjorn 05-20-07, 10:30 AM	On other thread: Hey there Thorsbjorn! :) I would advance it to 36d6 for a number of reasons. 1. Even if you roll above average numbers, chances are it won't kill anyone but the wizard. 2. Epic characters have many more ways to escape or rescind death. 3. The Dragon Turtle really needs some firepower at that level, otherwise the PCs are just going to make mincemeat from it, and it can only use the breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds. 4. Many PCs have some sort of fire resistance at that level. Hi Upper_Krust! Thanks for the reply! That was my original inclination too. Once I tossed in the Maximize Breath feat from Draconomicon, however, I was looking at the breath weapon doing 252 points of damage. That got me to wondering if the party's sorceress, and wizard, and the wizard's dragon familiar/cohort could survive even on a successful saving throw. Actually the faimilar/cohort has improved evasion, so it would survive. I think with contingent energy resistance, mass bear's endurance and empowered false life the sorceress would survive a single blast on a successful saving throw. I think the wizard with mass bear's endurance and false life would probably survive, and if he has a contingent protection from fire going, as he sometimes does, then he would survive on a successful saving throw and maybe even just on a failed saving throw too. The sorceress would certainly die on a failed saving throw. The dragon (a silver dragon, who takes an extra 50% damage from fire) would take 5 hp more than she has, but since she gets the same mass bear's endurance as everyone else in the party, she woul actually survive with 12 hit points. Since the party has access to at least two mass heal spells per day typically, I think you're right that even with Maximize Breath that the 36d6 would be a suitable challenge; if it doesn't kill them outright, the cleric will simply heal 190 hit points on everybody during his next turn. Edit: I meant to mention that someone on the epic boards suggested that since the breath weapon of a dragon turtle, CR 9, does about the same average damage as a CR 9 gold dragon's breath, that the CR 21 dragon turtle's breath should do about the same damage on average as a CR 21 gold dragon's breath, which would be 25d6 for the dragon turtle. Any thoughts? Thanks! :) Any comments yourself, Runestar? Thanks! :)
Gnarl 05-20-07, 04:37 PM	I would go for the 36d6 and keep it CR 21 :D. The gold dragon with the same CR has a whole lot more abilities than the turtle: higher AC, more melee damage, spells, spell resistance and a brain. In any event, as you probably know if you're playing at those levels, the rules for advancing monsters are kind of crap, especially at those levels. If you really want to be a rotten bastard, I would suggest a spellwarped version of the dragon :D.
Thorsbjorn 05-20-07, 04:51 PM	I would go for the 36d6 and keep it CR 21 :D. The gold dragon with the same CR has a whole lot more abilities than the turtle: higher AC, more melee damage, spells, spell resistance and a brain. In any event, as you probably know if you're playing at those levels, the rules for advancing monsters are kind of crap, especially at those levels. If you really want to be a rotten bastard, I would suggest a spellwarped version of the dragon :D. While the dragon turtle is actually a bit smarter than your average human, I agree that its intelligence pales by comparison with that of a true dragon of CR 21. I agree too that the true dragon has all that you say, as well as additional natural attaks (wings and tail) that the dragon turtle doesn't get. I also agree that the advancement rules work poorly: they end to produce creatures with lots of hit points, lousy armor class, and useless special abilities. Where can I find the spellwarped template? I doubt I'll apply it as the dragon turtle isn't a main encounter, but I'd like to check it out at least to see what you're talking about. Thanks for the feedback, Gnarl! :)
runestar 05-20-07, 10:54 PM	Spellwarped is in MM3. Gives the monster sr and the ability to gain a +4 enhancement bonus to any stat for 1 minute when a spell fails to penetrate its sr (which is 10+HD) - so yeah, that will happen quite often...:P You might also want to consider some means of flight...or at least improving your mobility...
Thorsbjorn 05-22-07, 11:34 AM	Spellwarped is in MM3. Gives the monster sr and the ability to gain a +4 enhancement bonus to any stat for 1 minute when a spell fails to penetrate its sr (which is 10+HD) - so yeah, that will happen quite often...:P You might also want to consider some means of flight...or at least improving your mobility... Oh, thanks. I stopped buying Monster Manuals with Monster Manual II (or technically with the 3.5 Monster Manual if you want to go in chronological order:P). I've yet to use most of the monsters in the Monster Manual, as most of my 5-year campaign has focused around human villains. With my updating of Maze of the Riddling Minotaur, I'm adding 16 to the list (in advanced forms), plus an advanced dragon turtle and an advanced kraken for the voyage there. I think the only things I've used from MM II are the two templates I've used for the labyrinth too, monster of legend and spell-stitched. A flying dragon turtle? Wouldn't that be Gamera?! Gamera! Gamera! Gamera is really neat! Gamera is full of meat! We believe in Gamera!
Darth Sephiroth 05-22-07, 02:46 PM	There is always my Ardorath (http://www.freewebs.com/avantiar/monsters.htm) that is one of the unholy terrors of my Avantiar campaign. My players hated dealing with him as he liked to play with his food.
Thorsbjorn 05-22-07, 04:11 PM	There is always my Ardorath (http://www.freewebs.com/avantiar/monsters.htm) that is one of the unholy terrors of my Avantiar campaign. My players hated dealing with him as he liked to play with his food. Thanks for the suggestion. How did you get him up to a CR of 27? How did you get the natural armor up to +45? I have it at +21. Did you just throw it in? I hadn't thought about Awaken Spell Resistance. SR 36 would certainly make it tougher. Maybe I'll drop Ability Focus (breath weapon) and take Awaken Spell Resistance. I've given it Devastating Critical (and all the prerequisites) and Maximize Breath.
Darth Sephiroth 05-22-07, 04:55 PM	Extra feats, HD, and I think I gave him an extra size increase. Also the Elite Array of stats. As a side note, I use the extra things from the Advancing Dragons section of the Draconomicon which adds 1 point of natural armor for every 2 extra Dragon HD added. Fun feats for him come from the Draconomicon and Stormwrack and I used several to increase his swim speed to something truely frightening.
Thorsbjorn 05-23-07, 12:54 AM	Extra feats, HD, and I think I gave him an extra size increase. Also the Elite Array of stats. As a side note, I use the extra things from the Advancing Dragons section of the Draconomicon which adds 1 point of natural armor for every 2 extra Dragon HD added. Fun feats for him come from the Draconomicon and Stormwrack and I used several to increase his swim speed to something truely frightening. I didn't notice the Rapid Swimming feat in its entry. Good call there. I notice now that a dragon turtle's so slow it might not be able to keep up with a ship it attacks. :P Somehow though you got its base (land) speed up from 20' to 30' and it's swim speed from 30' to 70'. Rapid Swimming increases the swim speed by only 20'. Well you've got him listed as gargantuan, which is only one size increase. The natural weapon damage went up by only one size category too. If you just advance it straight out to 36 hit dice, including the +1 for size increase, you get CR 22. I guess the elite array would increase it to 23. I suppose you could raise it another 1 for increasing the land speed 10' and the swim speed another 20'. So maybe that's up to CR 24. At 12 HD it gets 5 feats. Adding 24 HD give it another 8 feats for a total of 13. You gave it 14 feats, so that's one bonus feat. I guess you could maybe raise the CR by 1 for a bonus feat--especially if it's a good bonus feat like Awaken Spell Resistance. With an SR of 36 even the wizard, the highest-level member of the party, would have only a 50% chance of overcoming its SR. That might bring it up to CR 25. Do you mean the "Advanced Dragon" section on pages 99-100 of Draconomicon? That appears to apply only to dragons with age categories. You actually added another +1 per HD instead of per 2 HD. I guess adding another +24 to the natural armor could account for the remaining +2 CR. :)
Darth Sephiroth 05-23-07, 06:09 PM	One of the feats I'd modified was to mess with one of the ones in the Draconomicon and exchanged the fly speed increase for a swim speed increase.
Thorsbjorn 05-24-07, 09:06 AM	One of the feats I'd modified was to mess with one of the ones in the Draconomicon and exchanged the fly speed increase for a swim speed increase. If you took Improved Fly and turned it into Improved Swim, and gave it to him in addition to Rapid Swimming, that would get you there. You didn't list it, but that would be a second bonus feat.