advancing aberrations [Archive] - Wizards Community

advancing aberrations [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nezrim
09-16-03, 01:12 AM Hi all,

In my last session I set up an encounter for my PCs which included a group of 4 spirit nagas.

There were 6 level 12 characters, a fighter, a ranger, a sorcerer, a druid a cleric and a rogue. Three of the nagas were not advanced (CR 9s) and the other was advanced to 17 HD (CR 12, 2 from HD and 1 from size increase). This made the EL around a 14.

The encounter was grossly unbalanced. After 2 initial fireballs from the normal nagas the advanced naga easily dropped the socerer and put the party on the defensive. It would have been a TPK except for a little number fudging on my part (which I hate doing).

Anyway, my point is that advancing aberrations 1 CR for every 4 HD is a little unbalanced IMO. What are your thoughts on the subject?

Nez
The Abominable Darkling
09-16-03, 02:16 AM I don't think the advancement rules are the problem. Firstly, at EL 14, this is a very difficult fight (even for six characters) so one would expect some risk of a PC fatality. Secondly, mutliple spellcasters always make for a dangerous fight, and I think this is the root cause here. Even smaller damage spells (like fireball) quickly add up if the party is unprepared for them. I once ran a very twinky 12th-level party through a dungeon containing a bunch of EL 12's. They annahilated everything, including the dracolich at the end, all in one go (without resting and without taking any real damage). On the way out, they stopped by an unexplored room containing three rakshasas. Two of the characters were killed before they managed to teleport away.
Neonsamurai
09-16-03, 04:26 AM I don't think the advancement rules are the problem either. The main problem is, as it was already said, multiple spellcasters, with moderate/good melee combat abilities.

Most unprepared groups will get slaughtered by multiple fireballs or other area damage spells of any kind. I bet the encountered would be much easier if there weren't nagas but giants. Magic is the key, thats why tana'ri / baatezu encounters are so deadly.
the_heart
09-16-03, 09:02 AM also how were the dice falling? i've planned encounters that should have been easy yet turned into near TPK's because the PC's kept failing save's and failing to hit a low ac, whilst the monsters were critting every other round!!
but in general, CR is not and has never been accurate.(has anyone else used the banelar from RoF!!!) it's even worse when advancing critters of any kind. CR cannot control tactics(monster and PC), nasty and unforsee-able synergy(like multiple fireballs being surprisingly effective)and as mentioned above, luck...the only thing to do is use it as a guideline, and if things get hairy weaken subsequent encounters a little to compensate.
also sometimes it's good for players to learn a little humility...isn't it?
Mr.Waesel
09-16-03, 09:35 AM I have to agree, at least to some extent, with Nezrim. Especially at low levels, +4 HD for +1 CR is grossly unbalanced.
the_heart
09-16-03, 09:57 AM but it's not at low levels.
without increasing special abilities and spell casting, adding 4HD at CR9 isn't that big a deal, +4 to hit and the extra HP (con 15 d8hd= 24hp). it can survive maybe two extra hits from a 9th level fighter. hell even a 4th level fighter can be doing 2d6 +8 damage(IMC 2d6+12-14 would be closer).

if you have scaling special abilities or poison then you have to be much more careful(poison dc increases by 1/2 EHD which is VERY nasty and the worst example of how easy it is to break CR estimates i can think of)
Mr.Waesel
09-16-03, 10:24 AM Originally posted by the_heart
but it's not at low levels.

That's why I agree to some extent.
the_heart
09-16-03, 10:33 AM ah! my bad...my apologies....however, in my defense, it is rare that at low levels you will get that happening, at low CR's the HD aren't that high(huge generalisation i know) and those that do, just don't have any additional abilities of note. and as i said high HD critters(often beasts) can have a CR surprisingly low
also IME up to about 8-10th level i wouldn't really advance a monster, there is usually a viable alternative.(again huge generalisation so plenty of room for exceptions)
Nezrim
09-16-03, 10:34 AM You may be right about the spellcaster thing. However, most of the aberrations in the book have at least spell-like abilities with DCs that scale up with HD. In other words, I add 4 HD which is +1 CR and my special ability's DC goes up 2. Not to mention that every CR increase gives me 4 HD and 4 times my con bonus in HP, a +3 BAB, +1 to my favorite ability score, and 1 and 1/3rd feats.

I think that that is a little too much for a +1 CR.

In the spirit naga encounter, there wasn't any crits and the saves came out as they were supposed to. In general the encounter was about average on the dice rolls.

Thanks for your input. I like getting different views of a subject.

Nez
Mr.Waesel
09-16-03, 10:44 AM Originally posted by Nezrim
You may be right about the spellcaster thing. However, most of the aberrations in the book have at least spell-like abilities with DCs that scale up with HD. In other words, I add 4 HD which is +1 CR and my special ability's DC goes up 2. Not to mention that every CR increase gives me 4 HD and 4 times my con bonus in HP, a +3 BAB, +1 to my favorite ability score, and 1 and 1/3rd feats.

I think that that is a little too much for a +1 CR.

In the spirit naga encounter, there wasn't any crits and the saves came out as they were supposed to. In general the encounter was about average on the dice rolls.

Thanks for your input. I like getting different views of a subject.

Nez

Spell-like abilities do not scale with HD. Their DC = 10+spell level+cha modifier
the_heart
09-16-03, 10:46 AM i should add here that i sympathise entirely, i created a Tauric bugbear dire-lion should have been CR 9 against 4 level 10 char's should have been easy for the PC's, but in the first round the wizard was floored and everyone panicked! from there party cohesion went down hill and it tore them apart,over the next few rounds it took out the fighter next and was just starting in on the third char(a fighter/mage i think) but was floored by a well placed arrow.
Nezrim
09-16-03, 10:59 AM Originally posted by Mr.Waesel
Spell-like abilities do not scale with HD. Their DC = 10+spell level+cha modifier

I guess I was thinking of gaze attacks and things like poison.

Nez
Mr.Waesel
09-17-03, 02:41 PM *SPOILER*
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Okay, so I jsut bought the new Dungeon and read the the encounter with the fiendish Umber Hulk. Think how much more difficult the battle would be if thye used a 16 HD Umber Hulk instead of a Fiendish one...:smirk:
the_heart
09-18-03, 05:33 AM thats why they say adjudicating CR's is more of an art than a science.the rules give a guideline only, don't be afraid to look at it and adjudicate a little, experiment with advancing critters, i enjoy surprising my PC's with advanced monsters so, whilst i have made some ...horrible...mistakes, i've learnt from that...and just to highlight how difficult it really is, remeber the scaling up isn't +1 CR/4HD, it's +1/50%increase in HD so a 14HD creature gains +1 CR/7HD increase.
point being the higher the starting HD the harder it is to scale appropriately.
The Abominable Darkling
09-18-03, 10:21 AM No, the +1 CR per 50% increase was they way it was done in 3.0. In 3.5, you gain +1 CR for some fixed amount of hit dice, depending on your type. For aberrations, it's +1 CR per 4 HD.
the_heart
09-18-03, 10:24 AM highlighting my ignorance of 3.5 :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nezrim 09-16-03, 01:12 AM	Hi all, In my last session I set up an encounter for my PCs which included a group of 4 spirit nagas. There were 6 level 12 characters, a fighter, a ranger, a sorcerer, a druid a cleric and a rogue. Three of the nagas were not advanced (CR 9s) and the other was advanced to 17 HD (CR 12, 2 from HD and 1 from size increase). This made the EL around a 14. The encounter was grossly unbalanced. After 2 initial fireballs from the normal nagas the advanced naga easily dropped the socerer and put the party on the defensive. It would have been a TPK except for a little number fudging on my part (which I hate doing). Anyway, my point is that advancing aberrations 1 CR for every 4 HD is a little unbalanced IMO. What are your thoughts on the subject? Nez
The Abominable Darkling 09-16-03, 02:16 AM	I don't think the advancement rules are the problem. Firstly, at EL 14, this is a very difficult fight (even for six characters) so one would expect some risk of a PC fatality. Secondly, mutliple spellcasters always make for a dangerous fight, and I think this is the root cause here. Even smaller damage spells (like fireball) quickly add up if the party is unprepared for them. I once ran a very twinky 12th-level party through a dungeon containing a bunch of EL 12's. They annahilated everything, including the dracolich at the end, all in one go (without resting and without taking any real damage). On the way out, they stopped by an unexplored room containing three rakshasas. Two of the characters were killed before they managed to teleport away.
Neonsamurai 09-16-03, 04:26 AM	I don't think the advancement rules are the problem either. The main problem is, as it was already said, multiple spellcasters, with moderate/good melee combat abilities. Most unprepared groups will get slaughtered by multiple fireballs or other area damage spells of any kind. I bet the encountered would be much easier if there weren't nagas but giants. Magic is the key, thats why tana'ri / baatezu encounters are so deadly.
the_heart 09-16-03, 09:02 AM	also how were the dice falling? i've planned encounters that should have been easy yet turned into near TPK's because the PC's kept failing save's and failing to hit a low ac, whilst the monsters were critting every other round!! but in general, CR is not and has never been accurate.(has anyone else used the banelar from RoF!!!) it's even worse when advancing critters of any kind. CR cannot control tactics(monster and PC), nasty and unforsee-able synergy(like multiple fireballs being surprisingly effective)and as mentioned above, luck...the only thing to do is use it as a guideline, and if things get hairy weaken subsequent encounters a little to compensate. also sometimes it's good for players to learn a little humility...isn't it?
Mr.Waesel 09-16-03, 09:35 AM	I have to agree, at least to some extent, with Nezrim. Especially at low levels, +4 HD for +1 CR is grossly unbalanced.
the_heart 09-16-03, 09:57 AM	but it's not at low levels. without increasing special abilities and spell casting, adding 4HD at CR9 isn't that big a deal, +4 to hit and the extra HP (con 15 d8hd= 24hp). it can survive maybe two extra hits from a 9th level fighter. hell even a 4th level fighter can be doing 2d6 +8 damage(IMC 2d6+12-14 would be closer). if you have scaling special abilities or poison then you have to be much more careful(poison dc increases by 1/2 EHD which is VERY nasty and the worst example of how easy it is to break CR estimates i can think of)
Mr.Waesel 09-16-03, 10:24 AM	Originally posted by the_heart but it's not at low levels. That's why I agree to some extent.
the_heart 09-16-03, 10:33 AM	ah! my bad...my apologies....however, in my defense, it is rare that at low levels you will get that happening, at low CR's the HD aren't that high(huge generalisation i know) and those that do, just don't have any additional abilities of note. and as i said high HD critters(often beasts) can have a CR surprisingly low also IME up to about 8-10th level i wouldn't really advance a monster, there is usually a viable alternative.(again huge generalisation so plenty of room for exceptions)
Nezrim 09-16-03, 10:34 AM	You may be right about the spellcaster thing. However, most of the aberrations in the book have at least spell-like abilities with DCs that scale up with HD. In other words, I add 4 HD which is +1 CR and my special ability's DC goes up 2. Not to mention that every CR increase gives me 4 HD and 4 times my con bonus in HP, a +3 BAB, +1 to my favorite ability score, and 1 and 1/3rd feats. I think that that is a little too much for a +1 CR. In the spirit naga encounter, there wasn't any crits and the saves came out as they were supposed to. In general the encounter was about average on the dice rolls. Thanks for your input. I like getting different views of a subject. Nez
Mr.Waesel 09-16-03, 10:44 AM	Originally posted by Nezrim You may be right about the spellcaster thing. However, most of the aberrations in the book have at least spell-like abilities with DCs that scale up with HD. In other words, I add 4 HD which is +1 CR and my special ability's DC goes up 2. Not to mention that every CR increase gives me 4 HD and 4 times my con bonus in HP, a +3 BAB, +1 to my favorite ability score, and 1 and 1/3rd feats. I think that that is a little too much for a +1 CR. In the spirit naga encounter, there wasn't any crits and the saves came out as they were supposed to. In general the encounter was about average on the dice rolls. Thanks for your input. I like getting different views of a subject. Nez Spell-like abilities do not scale with HD. Their DC = 10+spell level+cha modifier
the_heart 09-16-03, 10:46 AM	i should add here that i sympathise entirely, i created a Tauric bugbear dire-lion should have been CR 9 against 4 level 10 char's should have been easy for the PC's, but in the first round the wizard was floored and everyone panicked! from there party cohesion went down hill and it tore them apart,over the next few rounds it took out the fighter next and was just starting in on the third char(a fighter/mage i think) but was floored by a well placed arrow.
Nezrim 09-16-03, 10:59 AM	Originally posted by Mr.Waesel Spell-like abilities do not scale with HD. Their DC = 10+spell level+cha modifier I guess I was thinking of gaze attacks and things like poison. Nez
Mr.Waesel 09-17-03, 02:41 PM	SPOILER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Okay, so I jsut bought the new Dungeon and read the the encounter with the fiendish Umber Hulk. Think how much more difficult the battle would be if thye used a 16 HD Umber Hulk instead of a Fiendish one...:smirk:
the_heart 09-18-03, 05:33 AM	thats why they say adjudicating CR's is more of an art than a science.the rules give a guideline only, don't be afraid to look at it and adjudicate a little, experiment with advancing critters, i enjoy surprising my PC's with advanced monsters so, whilst i have made some ...horrible...mistakes, i've learnt from that...and just to highlight how difficult it really is, remeber the scaling up isn't +1 CR/4HD, it's +1/50%increase in HD so a 14HD creature gains +1 CR/7HD increase. point being the higher the starting HD the harder it is to scale appropriately.
The Abominable Darkling 09-18-03, 10:21 AM	No, the +1 CR per 50% increase was they way it was done in 3.0. In 3.5, you gain +1 CR for some fixed amount of hit dice, depending on your type. For aberrations, it's +1 CR per 4 HD.
the_heart 09-18-03, 10:24 AM	highlighting my ignorance of 3.5 :)