Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chaos_Descending 12-27-06, 08:32 PM	Ok, I've seen this with the Nymph and the Couatle. When advancing HD on a creature, how do you advance spellcasting?
Witch 12-27-06, 08:39 PM	Find out what ratio the spellcasting level is. For example, look at Nagas. All of them have an effective sorceror spells per day & known level of 7/8 their HD. This differs between creatures. Try to find out how much the ratio is, and you'll find what your spellcasting level is. Remember always to round down.
dok 12-27-06, 08:54 PM	Sorry, but Witch is wrong on this one. When you advance a creature by adding racial Hit Dice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice), you increase BAB, skill points, feats, and Su/Ex saving throw DCs. You may increase Size, depending on the HD added, (which adds strength, constitution, natural armor, and scales up attack damages) but you do not increase spellcasting abilities, SR, or the caster level of Spell-like abilities. That said, if a creature with Spellcasting Abilities is advanced by adding class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingClassLevels) in the corresponding spellcasting class, it's perfectly reasonable to have those levels stack with the existing spellcasting. So, to summarize: A Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm) cast spells as a 9th level Sorcerer. If you advance the Couatl by adding +4 racial HD, it gains +3 CR (+2 for HD, +1 for size increase), along with 4d8+Con bonus x 4 hit points, +4 BAB, +2 to all saves, (11 x 4) skill points, 1 feat, +1 to any one ability score, +8 strength, +4 constitution, +3 natural armor, -1 to attacks and AC, its bite and constrict damages increase one step each, and its poison DC increases by +4 (+2 for increased Constitution score, +2 for extra HD) If you advance a Couatl by adding 3 Sorcerer levels, it gains +3 CR for associated class levels, +1 BAB, +1 to all its saves, +(5 x 3) skill points, 1 feat, +1 to any one ability score, +3d4 plus Con bonus times three hit points, and can now cast spells as a 12th level Sorcerer, gaining access to 5th & 6th level spells. Advancing a creature by Hit Dice makes it a better melee combatant: bigger, tougher, stronger, more hit points, more damage from natural attacks. Advancing a creature by Class Levels lets them gain other abilities that aren't tied to being melee bashers; in this case, it's the difference between having 4th level spells, and having 6th level spells.
Witch 12-27-06, 08:56 PM	I simply disagree. I feel that the spellcasting level is as much a part of a monster as their hit dice and similar is. It's innate casting, after all. You might state it doesn't say so in the rules. I would agree. I would state it is implicit though. It's also a fact that it's generally not a hit-die-for-a-spellcasting-level progression, so adding caster class levels would speed up the process.
dok 12-27-06, 09:35 PM	You might state it doesn't say so in the rules. I would agree. I would state it is implicit though. Actually, I would argue not only is it not in the rules, it is not implicit. It neither says, nor suggests, hints at, or implies that spellcasting should improve with racial hit dice. It doesn't hint at it in the description of Spells as a Special Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spells). There's certainly nothing in the rules for adding racial hit dice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#increasingHitDice) However, under the rules for advancement by Associated Class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#associatedClassLev els) it does explicitly state that spellcasting classes stack with racial spellcasting, which would tend to imply that spellcasting improves with class levels, but not racial HD. Lastly, the design argument is pretty convincing: adding racial HD always adds more hit points, BAB, saves, skill points, and feats than adding Associated Class levels. It's also a fact that it's generally not a hit-die-for-a-spellcasting-level progression, so adding caster class levels would speed up the process. That's demonstrably false & erronious reasoning. Look at the Coatil: a 9 HD creature casting as a 9th level Sorcerer. Adding +2 racial HD (outsider) adds +1 CR. Adding +2 Spellcaster levels adds +2 CR (Associated Class). By your reasoning, adding two racial HD should also add +2 Sorcerer levels, in addition to granting better saves, BAB, hit points, and skill points. Let's use one of your "ratio" monsters: the Dark Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/naga.htm#darkNaga). 9 HD, casts as 7th level Sorcerer. Adding +9 Hit Dice adds +3.25 CR (9 HD @ +1 CR per +4 HD = +2.25 , with an extra +1 CR for adding one size category) and, by your reasoning, should add +7 sorcerer levels. Even rounding up the CR to +4, that gives us a CR 12 monster casting spells as a 14th level sorcerer, with 18d8 hit points. Meanwhile, if we tried to add +4 sorcerer levels (+4 CR), we'd get a CR 12 monster casting as an 11th level caster, with 9d8+4d4 hit points. Sorry, Witch, but you're just plain wrong here. The rules don't support your position, the "implications" of the RAW for associated classes don't support your position, and the raw numbers don't support your position. Advancement by racial hit dice boosts combat (hit points, BAB, strength, constitution, natural armor, damage scaling) Advancement by class levels boosts other features (spellcasting, sneak attack, uncanny dodge, etc)
runestar 12-27-06, 10:45 PM	I also disagree with witch on this one. If advancing a creature will improve its innate spellcasting, it will explicitly state so in the monster entry. To date, I know of only two such monsters - the spellweaver and sylth. As for the other monsters, their spellcasting prowess will remain constant regardless of how many HD they are advanced by. A coautl advanced to 27HD still casts as only a 9th lv sorc. DnD is very straightforward in that sense - usually, everything you need to know is in the entry itself. If it does not state something, then it usually cannot be done. No real need to attempt second-guessing the authors.:) You can houserule that their spellcasting will improve with racial HD, but then you will need to revise the advancement cr ratios as well, probably to a 1:1 ration. Same goes for caster lv of SLAs. They too remain constant regardless of HD, unless stated otherwise, though you might want to houserule that they scale at a 1:1 ratio with cr. A balor advanced to 60HD that still uses blasphemy at caster lv20 won't be a threat for its cr at all.:P
Slagger the Chuul 12-27-06, 10:53 PM	Same goes for caster lv of SLAs. They too remain constant regardless of HD, unless stated otherwise, though you might want to houserule that they scale at a 1:1 ratio with cr. A balor advanced to 60HD that still uses blasphemy at caster lv20 won't be a threat for its cr at all.:P Actually, that's backwards. If no caster level is specified, the caster level for spell-like abilities is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. However, they almost always state a caster level, locking it in place rather than allowing it to scale freely with Hit Dice.
RavingDork 12-28-06, 02:09 AM	Good points all. Still, I have always hated the lack of rules for scaling spellcasting and spell-like abilities with racial hit dice. It never made any sense to me that a 5 HD creature advanced to 50+ HD might only have a CL of 5th with his spell-like abilities. :rolleyes: It simply becomes too weak for it's CR at that point. I think the system should be revised to allow for such advancement (including the CR system if need be). God I hope to see such changes in the new [sensored] version of D&D.
Chaos_Descending 12-28-06, 03:13 AM	I Don't mind the fact that hd advancment doesn't automatically mean Spell caster advancment. It just bugs me that ther are NO rules for the advancment. If they had it then, it would simply be a matter of plugging number, but they just don't have any info. How do you advance spellcasting outside of Class levels... it just doesn't feel right to have a creaturee with an innate contact to mysical forces having a level to show training in what should be natual...
Witch 12-28-06, 07:44 AM	Even with their arguments, I still disagree with Dok & Runestar. They might be correct according to the rules, but it doesn't sit well with me.
dawnbringer 12-28-06, 07:54 AM	Caster levels for a creature’s spell-like or spellcasting abilities may be increased by the same factor that a creature’s number of Hit Dice increased. For instance, a creature with a caster level equal to its Hit Dice maintains that relationship. A creature with a caster level equal to half its Hit Dice maintains that relationship. This rule can be fudged to get the effect you want for your creature, but increasing caster level makes the monster more powerful. Only on very rare occasions should caster level exceed Hit Dice, such as when the base creature’s caster level already does. A creature should hardly ever have access to spells that a spellcaster of the same level as its Hit Dice could not cast. Consider also adding higherlevel spells to a creature, using its current list of spell-like abilities as a guide to possible additions. The Spellpowered template (page 75) is a good guide for such a process. Quoted directly from the book of templates. So to those who think you know everything and say you should not increase the caster levels, YOU ARE WRONG!
Witch 12-28-06, 07:56 AM	What's the "book of templates"? If it's not WotC official, it has no more authority on these boards than my, or anyone's, opinion ;)
dawnbringer 12-28-06, 08:00 AM	It's a wizards pdf that you can buy. Though I have forgotten where to buy it, but I can send you it over email if you'd like. It is one of the best books I have ever bought.
runestar 12-28-06, 08:54 AM	Quoted directly from the book of templates. So to those who think you know everything and say you should not increase the caster levels, YOU ARE WRONG! http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11622.phtml What the hell...?:confused: I too wish that people who dole out advice at least have the sense to follow it themselves first and foremost. Developed by Silverthorne Games, published by Goodman Games. This is not official DnD material at all. Their content is no more official than the worst, ill-conceived houserules on these boards...:P What they say may well be right, but it would not be right for the reason you are stating.;)
Morrowner 12-28-06, 10:30 AM	Eh, for every die I've been increase caster/manifester levels by an equal amount. That'll make one hell of a cerebrilith! I guess it seemed so obvious that I assumed it. Anyhow, isn't waiting for WOTC to say something official silly most of the time? Its usually just a half-assed opinion from one guy, anyhow. Why should that carry more weight than what we do or think or say?
runestar 12-28-06, 11:22 AM	Eh, for every die I've been increase caster/manifester levels by an equal amount. That'll make one hell of a cerebrilith! Yeah, especially when you consider the auto-scaling nature of most psi powers...:eek:
RavingDork 12-28-06, 03:43 PM	Even with their arguments, I still disagree with Dok & Runestar. They might be correct according to the rules, but it doesn't sit well with me. Nor with me.
Chaos_Descending 12-28-06, 10:32 PM	It would be nice to get an offical note on how to advance the Spell caster Level... Know where one could be? Should I write wizards or is it in a Dragon Magazine issue?
Alac Luin 12-28-06, 10:52 PM	From the SRD "INCREASING HIT DICE As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type." This line, and the table it refers to make absolutly no mention of spellcasting. So, no spell casting advancement for adding hit die. I can't remember which book, I think it was Silver Marches (a realms book) there was a dragon that was better at magic, it had 5 sorc levels stacked on it.
dok 12-29-06, 01:06 AM	It would be nice to get an offical note on how to advance the Spell caster Level... For monsters that actually cast Spells, there is an official way to advance the caster level: add levels in that spellcasting class! A Couatl casts spells as a 9th level sorcerer. A Couatl with 3 levels of Sorcerer casts spells spells as a 12th level sorcerer. That's how you can have a Couatl with a higher caster level. Once more: want a bigger, stronger Couatl? Advance by racial HD. Want a better spellcasting Coualt? Add class levels. For increasing the caster level of Spell-like abilities when advancing a monster by Hit Dice, there is no rule to do so, just as there is no rule to increase the SR of a monster advanced by racial Hit Dice. A good house rule is to increase the caster level of SLAs and increase Spell Reistance by +1 for each +1 increase in CR that the creature gained from advancement. If you were completely irrational, and utterly desperate to ignore the rules, game mechanics, and balance arguments that say Spellcasting doesn't increase with Hit Die advancement, if it "just doesn't sit well" with you that all monstesr advanced by racial HD get are a great Hit Die to CR ratio for racial advancement, more hit points, higher Su & Ex DCs, scaled up damage dice, better reach, advantages in grapples/bull rushes/sunders/disarms, if you absolutely need to boost their spellcasting in addition to the advantages of racial HD for a monster, then as a house rule I would use the same standard as above: for each +1 CR gained from racial HD advancement, increase the creature's spellcasting level by +1.
runestar 12-29-06, 01:35 AM	Also, since outsiders automatically are proficient in martial weapons, you can consider adding lvs in the eldritch knight prc instead of just sorc lvs.:) You lose a caster lv, but get full bab and slightly better HD.
RavingDork 12-29-06, 01:56 PM	Also, since outsiders automatically are proficient in martial weapons, you can consider adding lvs in the eldritch knight prc instead of just sorc lvs.:) You lose a caster lv, but get full bab and slightly better HD. That's not a bad idea, actually.
Chaos_Descending 01-01-07, 11:26 PM	**snip** Just read his post **End Snip** However, that stoped being my question, now did it. DMG says somehting along the lines that with every 3 hd you put on an outsider, it gains +1 to it's CR. That's a rule. (I'm doing this from memory here, so forgive if I am wrong.) With class lelvels it's +1 for 1. That's bacause Class levels also add HD/ Ba and all those other things you mentioned above. So in order to make a being comparable to it's HD you have to icrease it's hd? That make no sense what so ever from a reality point of veiw, and sorry to say, it's holes like that that kill this game. (Ala OotS, My vision and hearing get better with age) I am not looking for that, I am looking for balance, such as what would be a good CR to Spell caster level for advancing that on it's own, as opposed to making a CR 56 creature just to give it huge size and a spell caster level equil to it's HD... I've never like the mind set that you have to "put up" with the rules, for any game. If it doesn't make sense, you clarify and understand the why, that's the only way to be good at what you do.
Witch 01-02-07, 05:09 AM	Chaos, that's not correct. Outsider Hit Dice provides 1 CR per 2 hit dice. Associated Class Levels provide 1 CR per level. Non-associated provide 1 CR per 2 levels. But those calculations are flawed.
Chaos_Descending 01-02-07, 02:22 PM	Now that's a statement that can't just be left alone... You are correct, I have yet to go to work, so I have the book in front of me. 2:1 ration on HD:CR. I don't see how it is flawed. Please explain the rest of your statement, and I think this had gone long enough that I am going to build the couatl to the point that I want, through all the methods mentioned... just to prove my point. *edit* Just talked to the guy who sold me all my books and DMed all our games. He came up with a good loution... Dragons. Apparently, (I'm doubl checking this in between calls at work) they progress there spell levels with HD. +1SL/3HD Thoughts?
Witch 01-02-07, 02:39 PM	What I mean by flawed calculations is that the CR a creature gains by hit dice is only relative - straight mathematical calculations will not always be accurate.
Chaos_Descending 01-03-07, 09:08 PM	Ok, Here's what I got... A Couatl can be advanced to 27d8 HD. However, it's spellcasting abilities will remain at lv 9 and hit's CR goes to 17 or 18. Now This is how I would represent an elder Couatl, however, for a being that is supposed to have innate magic, it doesn't sit right that it stay as a 9th level caster. My question was, what would the CR be on a 27HD Couatl with a caster level of 20? Now according to dok, the only way to do this is to make the Couatl an 11th level Sorcerer, thus making the HD be somehtitng like 27d8 + 11d4. And the CR would be 28-29. That's pretty brutal, and a bit much I think. Now, advancing by hd as my freind suggested would bring the spell caster level up to 15 by the time it reached 27HD. The CR stays the same. That doesn't sit right either. Let us not forget, he suggested advancing the creature as a gesalt creature that would make it a 20th lv outsider/sorcerer. That also is wrong... on so many levels. So. If I just write on the sheet, 27HD/ Casts as a 20th level sorcerer, what would be the CR? How would you apply that in terms of advancing other creatures? Is there an actual answer for me out there, or will I have to take that to the D&D staff, and get a ruling from them?
Morwen 01-03-07, 09:28 PM	Now according to dok, the only way to do this is to make the Couatl an 11th level Sorcerer, thus making the HD be somehtitng like 27d8 + 11d4. And the CR would be 28-29. He actually suggested to make it an 11th level sorcerer instead of advancing its racial hit dice, not in addition to :)
runestar 01-03-07, 10:17 PM	My question was, what would the CR be on a 27HD Couatl with a caster level of 20? I would peg it at around 24.:) If you want spellcasting to scale with HD, I suggest that the cr improve at a 1:1 ratio as well. Thus, a 20HD coautl casts as a sorc20 and would be cr21. Tack on 7 more outsider HD and you get around cr24 or 25.
dok 01-04-07, 12:18 AM	Please read my posts more carefully... A Couatil is a CR 10 Outsider that cast spells as a 9th level Sorcerer. If you advance a Couatil to maximum HD, that adds +10 to the CR. (+18 Outsider HD = +9 CR, with a +1 CR increase for the size increase) This CR 20 creature will have a BAB of +27, and base saves of all +15; it has a grapple check of +43, can constrict for 3d8+12 damage, and the DC on it's poison is 27. It's strength is a minimum of 26, and it has six additional feats. And by the RAW, it still casts spells as a 9th level caster. (And, if you're using supplimental material, the Practiced Spellcaster, Extra Spell, and Extra Slot feats would benefit it) A Coatil with 11 levels of Sorcerer is CR 21, casts spells as a 20th level Sorcerer, but has better saves, hit points, and BAB than a 20th level Sorcerer, as well as having SLAs, natural armor, natural flight, etc. In other words, a Couatil Sorcerer 11 is a tougher challenge than a Human Sorcerer 20. Is it as large, as melee-combat powerful as the Advanced Coautl? No, but having six 5th through 9th level spell slots should more than make up for it. Now, I offered a house rule whereby each +1 of CR gained from adding racial HD adds +1 to SR, +1 to the caster level of SLAs, and could add +1 to spellcasting levels. By that house rule, your CR 20, fully-advanced Coautil would cast spells as an 18th level Sorcerer. (+9 CR from +18 Outsider HD, but not the +1 for the size increase)
runestar 01-04-07, 05:10 AM	I am dubious as to how useful a high bab is for a foe with a crap bite attack and poison, which while potent, is so readily circumvented at higher lvs. I suppose you could use power attack to funnel some damage to augment it, and a high str score helps somewhat, but still, I don't think a coautl was designed for advancement with HD, despite such an option being valid.:confused: I would go with a coautl with 10 lvs of eldritch knight.:) Cr20, bab19, sorc18 spellcasting...best of both worlds.
RavingDork 01-04-07, 06:02 PM	I would go with a coautl with 10 lvs of eldritch knight.:) Cr20, bab19, sorc18 spellcasting...best of both worlds. Throw in Abjurant Champion and you have a CL = BAB (if not better) and can cast Shield for a +9 shield bonus to AC as a swift action. I imagine if done right, such a build would beat the crap out of yours.
runestar 01-04-07, 11:04 PM	Throw in Abjurant Champion and you have a CL = BAB (if not better) and can cast Shield for a +9 shield bonus to AC as a swift action. I imagine if done right, such a build would beat the crap out of yours. I will have to take your word for it, since I don't own complete mage.:)
gaunt8 01-26-07, 08:25 PM	I would like to remind the strict "rule-lawyers" one thing: 1) Even though the "guidelines" in the MM don't specify any upgrades for the spellcasting abilities, SR, or SLAs when adding racial HD, it simply wouldn't make any sense, from a DM's point of view, to not include them in the monster's progression, and would actually beat the purpose of adding HD in the first place. I mean, the creature advancement rules are there in order to address the situation where players are getting higher and higher up in levels, and DMs wishing to keep their monster variety interesting ("what, another red dragon in those mountains?"...), hence boosting a lower CR monster to the appropriate CR. BUT, if spellcasting, SR and SLA don't keep up with that CR, the imbalance with the players will quickly be felt. Because, what's the point of a CR 20 monster with SR 12, or low-level spellcasting abilities, against 20th level mages and clerics, etc? The "guidelines" just might have well told us to forget about those capabilities when adding racial HD, since they'll become obsolete, and simply concentrate on bashing (because of the increased bab and hp)... But such a absurd approach certainly wasn't the intention of, say, creating a couatl in the first place, and permitting it to increase it's HD... Which brings me to my second point, which is to point out one of the rare monsters whose racial HD progression couldn't be any clearer: true dragons. If you look at the true dragons's progression, which derives solely from racial HD, lo and behold, SR and spellcasting abilities DO improve with HD... So, what's a DM to think? Dragon's CR are way underrated, or the rules on improving monsters are just too unclear on this issue? I say the latter... Just my two cents, gaunt8
runestar 01-27-07, 02:34 AM	I can accept sr and caster lv scaling with a creature's cr. I will not accept them scaling with a creature's HD...:noway: Ultimately, my point still stands - there is no real clear relationship between a creature's HD and how those values should scale.:)
dok 01-27-07, 03:53 AM	While the RAW doesn't allow for it, the house rule I suggested in this thread is one that's widely adopted: For each +1 CR gained from racial HD advancement, increase SR and Caster Level of Spell-like Abilities by +1. Because there are some folks who want more, I suggested that additionally, for creatures with spell-casting abilities, their effective caster level be increased at the same rate. It's a house rule that lets things like SR and caster level checks scale in relationship to CR, and it's one that most people seem to like.