Advancing huminoid monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advancing huminoid monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Firedog
12-31-05, 10:32 PM When advancing huminoid monsters like goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears with a character class, do they get both monster HD plus charcater class HD? or do they only get the character class HD?
Realms of Chaos
01-01-06, 12:58 AM The answer is very simple. Notice that in entries like dwarf, elf, kobold, and goblin, the example given has one level in a class. The kobold example in the MM3.5, for instance, is a 1st level warrior and the 1d8 hit die is just to reflect this. In short, they have no racial hit die.
guardiandashi
01-01-06, 10:33 AM it depends, mostly on the number of hd.

in general, subtract 1 hd, and replace with chosen class @ 1st level, advancement then procedes as if a normal player/npc of that class.
Alac Luin
01-01-06, 10:55 AM From the SRD:
"Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class."

Bugbears have racial hit die, so class levels would be added on top of the 3d8 a bugbear gets for being a bugbear.
ajs
01-01-06, 08:01 PM From the SRD:
"Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class."

Bugbears have racial hit die, so class levels would be added on top of the 3d8 a bugbear gets for being a bugbear.
Question about this: having not read Savage Species, I'm not sure if this is covered there, but can a player character who wishes to play a monster with racial hid die levels "opt out" of some or all of those levels? In other words, can I choose to play a stone giant who has zero "giant" levels, and thus only derives hit dice from class levels? The reason that I ask is that the racial hit die levels often seem to be a steep price to pay. I have read the 3.5 FAQ entry that disucsses the hound archon, and I agree that it makes sense to have high level adjustments for monsters that introduce otherwise unbalancing abilities, but to have to add to that level adjustment, blowing a level per hit die on your selected monstrous race really hurts. You're getting nothing at all in return for those racial levels other than the basic BAB, HD, and saves increases which any PC class would get in addition to their class abilities.

I'd like to run a mini-campaign at some point where I allow my players to choose any race which has player character stats (the "X as characters" section), but as it stands, anyone who chooses a race with racial hit dice would seem to be at a strong disadvantage.
dok
01-01-06, 08:20 PM Question about this: ...can a player character who wishes to play a monster with racial hid die levels "opt out" of some or all of those levels?

Nope.
ajs
01-01-06, 08:26 PM Nope.
Ok... so let me ask the obvious followup. Is there a reason, as a DM, to not allow players to do so, other than the fact that it's not the default mechanic? Is there any game-balance impact from taking racial hit die levels and class levels in any order the player desires (including avoiding racial hit die levels entirely)?

Note once again: I'm clear on the level adjustment concept and why that's important and distinct from CR, so that's not what I'm asking about. I'm only asking about racial HD.
Seraph of Babel
01-02-06, 01:50 AM Yes, because LA is meant to be taken together with racial HD. Without the racial HD, the LA would probably be higher than it is listed. Savage Species has some guidelines on determining LA. If you do a comparison, you'd find that the abilities of creatures with racial HD are often less than what the guidelines suggest. Think of racial HD as a mitigating factor, which makes LA cheaper.
guardiandashi
01-02-06, 03:14 AM that and the LA is inflated over what is "fair" usually to discourage playing the non standard races.
ajs
01-02-06, 11:40 AM that and the LA is inflated over what is "fair" usually to discourage playing the non standard races.
Damn, I hate when this happens! I worked up a whole response to you, then as I finished I re-read it, and formulated my own counter-argument. Let me try to summarize both for those reading along:

First, I was suggesting that a higher LA (about 2-3X the one listed) would be reasonable for most monstrous PCs who wished to ignore racial HD, and that this would avoid any problems.

Then I began to think of the Stone Giant PC in the level 20 party. With an LA of 8-12 instead of the default 4, he has such insanely crappy saves that he won't survive long enough for his +11 natural armor bonus and +16 STR to mean anything. His BAB is offset by the STR, and being down 2.6 feats isn't a problem given the stats, but it's really those saves that will kill him.

Is there a compromise that gets you a well-balanced monstrous PC?
guardiandashi
01-02-06, 12:26 PM thats not actually meant.

the base HD is actually fine in most cases, its that the given HD AND LA usually end up being at least 1 effective level out of line for the actual nonstandard race as compared to a more standard race.
ajs
01-02-06, 11:30 PM the base HD is actually fine in most cases, its that the given HD AND LA usually end up being at least 1 effective level out of line for the actual nonstandard race as compared to a more standard race.
Let's not mix terms here. I was refering to the "racial Hit Dice", and specifically asking if there was a way to bypass racial HD in order to level a monstrous PC using normal classes. I then pointed out that raising LA to compensate would not work because you're depriving the character of saves which are essential to survivability.

THAT is why I then asked if anyone knew of a good compromise that avoids the need for racial HD (which can make many monstrous PC choices nearly impossible to fold into the typical campaign due to the high starting level and lack of diverse abilities) without pushing LA to dangerous levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Firedog 12-31-05, 10:32 PM	When advancing huminoid monsters like goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears with a character class, do they get both monster HD plus charcater class HD? or do they only get the character class HD?
Realms of Chaos 01-01-06, 12:58 AM	The answer is very simple. Notice that in entries like dwarf, elf, kobold, and goblin, the example given has one level in a class. The kobold example in the MM3.5, for instance, is a 1st level warrior and the 1d8 hit die is just to reflect this. In short, they have no racial hit die.
guardiandashi 01-01-06, 10:33 AM	it depends, mostly on the number of hd. in general, subtract 1 hd, and replace with chosen class @ 1st level, advancement then procedes as if a normal player/npc of that class.
Alac Luin 01-01-06, 10:55 AM	From the SRD: "Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class." Bugbears have racial hit die, so class levels would be added on top of the 3d8 a bugbear gets for being a bugbear.
ajs 01-01-06, 08:01 PM	From the SRD: "Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class." Bugbears have racial hit die, so class levels would be added on top of the 3d8 a bugbear gets for being a bugbear. Question about this: having not read Savage Species, I'm not sure if this is covered there, but can a player character who wishes to play a monster with racial hid die levels "opt out" of some or all of those levels? In other words, can I choose to play a stone giant who has zero "giant" levels, and thus only derives hit dice from class levels? The reason that I ask is that the racial hit die levels often seem to be a steep price to pay. I have read the 3.5 FAQ entry that disucsses the hound archon, and I agree that it makes sense to have high level adjustments for monsters that introduce otherwise unbalancing abilities, but to have to add to that level adjustment, blowing a level per hit die on your selected monstrous race really hurts. You're getting nothing at all in return for those racial levels other than the basic BAB, HD, and saves increases which any PC class would get in addition to their class abilities. I'd like to run a mini-campaign at some point where I allow my players to choose any race which has player character stats (the "X as characters" section), but as it stands, anyone who chooses a race with racial hit dice would seem to be at a strong disadvantage.
dok 01-01-06, 08:20 PM	Question about this: ...can a player character who wishes to play a monster with racial hid die levels "opt out" of some or all of those levels? Nope.
ajs 01-01-06, 08:26 PM	Nope. Ok... so let me ask the obvious followup. Is there a reason, as a DM, to not allow players to do so, other than the fact that it's not the default mechanic? Is there any game-balance impact from taking racial hit die levels and class levels in any order the player desires (including avoiding racial hit die levels entirely)? Note once again: I'm clear on the level adjustment concept and why that's important and distinct from CR, so that's not what I'm asking about. I'm only asking about racial HD.
Seraph of Babel 01-02-06, 01:50 AM	Yes, because LA is meant to be taken together with racial HD. Without the racial HD, the LA would probably be higher than it is listed. Savage Species has some guidelines on determining LA. If you do a comparison, you'd find that the abilities of creatures with racial HD are often less than what the guidelines suggest. Think of racial HD as a mitigating factor, which makes LA cheaper.
guardiandashi 01-02-06, 03:14 AM	that and the LA is inflated over what is "fair" usually to discourage playing the non standard races.
ajs 01-02-06, 11:40 AM	that and the LA is inflated over what is "fair" usually to discourage playing the non standard races. Damn, I hate when this happens! I worked up a whole response to you, then as I finished I re-read it, and formulated my own counter-argument. Let me try to summarize both for those reading along: First, I was suggesting that a higher LA (about 2-3X the one listed) would be reasonable for most monstrous PCs who wished to ignore racial HD, and that this would avoid any problems. Then I began to think of the Stone Giant PC in the level 20 party. With an LA of 8-12 instead of the default 4, he has such insanely crappy saves that he won't survive long enough for his +11 natural armor bonus and +16 STR to mean anything. His BAB is offset by the STR, and being down 2.6 feats isn't a problem given the stats, but it's really those saves that will kill him. Is there a compromise that gets you a well-balanced monstrous PC?
guardiandashi 01-02-06, 12:26 PM	thats not actually meant. the base HD is actually fine in most cases, its that the given HD AND LA usually end up being at least 1 effective level out of line for the actual nonstandard race as compared to a more standard race.
ajs 01-02-06, 11:30 PM	the base HD is actually fine in most cases, its that the given HD AND LA usually end up being at least 1 effective level out of line for the actual nonstandard race as compared to a more standard race. Let's not mix terms here. I was refering to the "racial Hit Dice", and specifically asking if there was a way to bypass racial HD in order to level a monstrous PC using normal classes. I then pointed out that raising LA to compensate would not work because you're depriving the character of saves which are essential to survivability. THAT is why I then asked if anyone knew of a good compromise that avoids the need for racial HD (which can make many monstrous PC choices nearly impossible to fold into the typical campaign due to the high starting level and lack of diverse abilities) without pushing LA to dangerous levels.