Post/Author/DateTime	Post
valvorik 06-08-04, 09:37 PM	I don't know if any others have tested/revisited, but I'm on verge of deciding that although I like the monster advancement rules in 3.5 much better, they produce wonky results at times. This may be when the size changes are invoked or perhaps some of the +CR per HD formula are off. An Elder Xorn in the MM (which is an advanced average xorn), has an attack bonus roughly 2.5 X CR, or 1.5 x CR +9, rather than the recommended 1.5 x CR +2. Even with a margin around recommended, that's pretty nasty and with power attack 5 or so running it can chomp an 8th level character very fast. Now I'm not sure where the problem lies (if it can be attributed), e.g., is it that the CR of an outsider goes up +1 per 2 HD, if it was +1 per HD (it's BAB goes up that rate, all saves are good, it has lots of skill points, d8's - dragon is the same but d12's and also +1 per 2HD), then an elder xorn would be CR 14, meaning the recommended attack would be +24 (making its +21/+19/+19/+19 look more on ball). Recommended AC would be 27, it's AC 25 a bit weak but it has some DR, can't be flanked compensators. All in all, looks more reasonable to me. Saves are weak (though it has some resistances etc. to help compensate) and its an outsider thus dismissable and otherwise "vulnerable" to some special attacks, so maybe an adjustment down to CR 12 or so. Still well above the CR 8 in book/by advancement rules. Has anyone else worked out any of these stats/math or found using advanced monsters in encounters that they are "too good"?
TWG_Prometheus 06-09-04, 03:09 PM	A quick look gives me: 8 Outsider HD more than next-lower version: CR +4 from lower version Move from Medium size up to Large size: CR +1 additional. Even without thinking about it much, I get CR 11. The critical weakness of the critter lies in its saving throws, and you might want to swap some of its less-useful feats for Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes, depending on the makeup of the party though. Overall, I'd probably just throw it in the game at CR 11 and if the PC's thrash it, cut the XP down to half, as outlined near the XP tables in the DMG (p. 39-ish).