Advancing monsters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advancing monsters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Archangel
03-10-04, 04:26 AM What I wanted to know is if advance a monster with its monster HD that has spell-like abilities does his caster level for those abilities also rise? If not I believe they are not worth their new CR because players can have SR and without new CL they probably wont be able to bypass it. Also creatures like Beholders that are more or less a threat as CR 13 but if advanced and given higher CR they become useless because DC of their rays stays the same!
Archangel
03-11-04, 09:43 AM What, nobody knows the answer? Come on I need help?
d_nychus
03-11-04, 10:50 AM Well, for straight out Spell-like abilities, there is nothing in the rules that states HOW you should increase it, just a blurb in the back of the advancement section about increaing their caster level to a suitable CR. Personally, I would put them at about a CL close to their CR, barring special circumstances. Remember, the minimum is the lowest caster level that can cast the spell.

However, a beholder's eye rays are Supernatural, and like almost all Supernatural abilities, the DC is based off 10 + 1/2 HD + relevant ability modifier. In this case, the beholder's relevant abillity is its Charisma. At 12 HD, the beholder's DC goes up to 18, or possibly 19 if you put the stat increase into Charisma.
Kilsek of Sheverash
03-11-04, 12:21 PM I believe if you advance a "spellcasting" monster by adding appropriate spellcasting classes, they stack for purposes of determining caster-level based calculations.

Otherwise, all you might be doing is increasing the DCs of those spell-like abilities by whatever amount the key ability score increased, and that just doesn't make sense. You'd have a pretty useless "advanced" spellcasting monster if CL never increased, and that's not a challenge worth facing for the PCs or one worth running for the DM.

I could be wrong - I'll have to check out the MM when I get home. The MM tends to read more cleary than the SRD on this kind of complicated material, only bc of occassional examples and occassional extra clarification.
d_nychus
03-11-04, 03:01 PM Not in this case. The MM is pretty silent on caster level.

Increasing CL seems to be something subjective rather than any hard fast rules. I still say putting CL at about the creature's CR would work pretty well.
Archangel
03-12-04, 09:09 AM It is strange that in 3.5E they explained monster advancement much better that in 3.0 but left out CL advancement rules. Since some monsters relay heavely on their spell-like abilities to be effective by not increasing their CL they would be a seriously less challenging then their normal versions! Also I think beholders use eye rays as spell-like abilities since enemies can ignore them with SR! But I am not sure since they are not in the SRD and I don't have my MM3.5 with me!
laxrulz777
03-12-04, 10:07 AM I thought that as you increased a monster's HD you didn't increase it's CR you just increased the XP payout proportionally

Take something from 4 to 5 HD and you pay 1.25x the XP
Kilsek of Sheverash
03-12-04, 10:56 AM No, you always increased Challenge Rating, 3.0 or 3.5, when advancing a monster with HD and/or class levels.

What's unclear is how/if Caster Level for Spell-like abilities advances.

In practice, if it doesn't, those abilities become "useless" for the advanced creature bc they're not progressively more difficult to save against. In fact, they become incredibly easy saves to make.

My gut feeling is that adding associated spellcaster class levels increases Caster Level, but again, I have to comb through the books to find any morsel of info supporting that.

Again, seems ridiculous to advance a monster that relies heavily or has quite a few good spell-like abilities, and then have those abilities be a complete cakewalk to save against bc they don't "improve."
d_nychus
03-12-04, 12:59 PM In the pre-errata of the 3.0 MM, you DIDN'T raise the CR, just awarded more XP. That was until they realized just how stupid it was to have a tangible challenge rating system, and to not use it when you decided to tweak with any of the monsters. I think someone at WotC advanced a monster for an adventure, looked at the EL according to the advancement rules, and went "Well, this is stupid."

And, yes, if you add levels of a spellcaster to a creature that has innate spellcasting of that class, you add them together for the purposes of caster level. This is in the MM.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Archangel 03-10-04, 04:26 AM	What I wanted to know is if advance a monster with its monster HD that has spell-like abilities does his caster level for those abilities also rise? If not I believe they are not worth their new CR because players can have SR and without new CL they probably wont be able to bypass it. Also creatures like Beholders that are more or less a threat as CR 13 but if advanced and given higher CR they become useless because DC of their rays stays the same!
Archangel 03-11-04, 09:43 AM	What, nobody knows the answer? Come on I need help?
d_nychus 03-11-04, 10:50 AM	Well, for straight out Spell-like abilities, there is nothing in the rules that states HOW you should increase it, just a blurb in the back of the advancement section about increaing their caster level to a suitable CR. Personally, I would put them at about a CL close to their CR, barring special circumstances. Remember, the minimum is the lowest caster level that can cast the spell. However, a beholder's eye rays are Supernatural, and like almost all Supernatural abilities, the DC is based off 10 + 1/2 HD + relevant ability modifier. In this case, the beholder's relevant abillity is its Charisma. At 12 HD, the beholder's DC goes up to 18, or possibly 19 if you put the stat increase into Charisma.
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-11-04, 12:21 PM	I believe if you advance a "spellcasting" monster by adding appropriate spellcasting classes, they stack for purposes of determining caster-level based calculations. Otherwise, all you might be doing is increasing the DCs of those spell-like abilities by whatever amount the key ability score increased, and that just doesn't make sense. You'd have a pretty useless "advanced" spellcasting monster if CL never increased, and that's not a challenge worth facing for the PCs or one worth running for the DM. I could be wrong - I'll have to check out the MM when I get home. The MM tends to read more cleary than the SRD on this kind of complicated material, only bc of occassional examples and occassional extra clarification.
d_nychus 03-11-04, 03:01 PM	Not in this case. The MM is pretty silent on caster level. Increasing CL seems to be something subjective rather than any hard fast rules. I still say putting CL at about the creature's CR would work pretty well.
Archangel 03-12-04, 09:09 AM	It is strange that in 3.5E they explained monster advancement much better that in 3.0 but left out CL advancement rules. Since some monsters relay heavely on their spell-like abilities to be effective by not increasing their CL they would be a seriously less challenging then their normal versions! Also I think beholders use eye rays as spell-like abilities since enemies can ignore them with SR! But I am not sure since they are not in the SRD and I don't have my MM3.5 with me!
laxrulz777 03-12-04, 10:07 AM	I thought that as you increased a monster's HD you didn't increase it's CR you just increased the XP payout proportionally Take something from 4 to 5 HD and you pay 1.25x the XP
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-12-04, 10:56 AM	No, you always increased Challenge Rating, 3.0 or 3.5, when advancing a monster with HD and/or class levels. What's unclear is how/if Caster Level for Spell-like abilities advances. In practice, if it doesn't, those abilities become "useless" for the advanced creature bc they're not progressively more difficult to save against. In fact, they become incredibly easy saves to make. My gut feeling is that adding associated spellcaster class levels increases Caster Level, but again, I have to comb through the books to find any morsel of info supporting that. Again, seems ridiculous to advance a monster that relies heavily or has quite a few good spell-like abilities, and then have those abilities be a complete cakewalk to save against bc they don't "improve."
d_nychus 03-12-04, 12:59 PM	In the pre-errata of the 3.0 MM, you DIDN'T raise the CR, just awarded more XP. That was until they realized just how stupid it was to have a tangible challenge rating system, and to not use it when you decided to tweak with any of the monsters. I think someone at WotC advanced a monster for an adventure, looked at the EL according to the advancement rules, and went "Well, this is stupid." And, yes, if you add levels of a spellcaster to a creature that has innate spellcasting of that class, you add them together for the purposes of caster level. This is in the MM.