Advancing my BBEG [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advancing my BBEG [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BraveSirPatrick
01-27-06, 10:49 AM For my next adventure I would like my BBEG to be an undead. I'm not using a vampire or lich since I think they are overused and I can't justify (in my storyline) how my BBEG came to be either of those things.

I think that I will use either a Mohrg (preferably) or a Wight.

I have a question or two.

Is it feasible to give them class levels, or should I follow the undead monster class guidelines in Libris Mortis?

Regarding the Undead monster class in Libris Mortis; IIRC I have to finish out the undead monster class progression before I can add class levels. I can't have a Mohrg 5/Cleric 8 BBEG?

The Libris Mortis guidelines seem to restrictive. You need to take 8 class levels to complete the Wight class (the Mohrg is 20... not going to happen) to simulate a CR 3 monster.
Since I want my BBEG to be about CR 13, I can only add 5 levels of cleric.

What's the best way to give my BBEG an undead form and 7 or more levels in cleric???
Seraph of Babel
01-27-06, 11:12 AM Assuming your BBEG is an NPC (which is usually the case), ignore the monster class which is designed for PC. A mohrg is CR8. You can advance it by racial HD or simply add class levels. If you're not sure how to do so, see http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=564873
BraveSirPatrick
01-27-06, 11:50 AM One more stupid question that you already answered...

I can advance it by class levels even though the entry does not state " by class level" under advancement? I'm not breaking a fundamental rule? My crops won't whither, the river won't dry up, and I won't have brought a plague unto myself by doing so? Are you sure????
Elendur
01-27-06, 12:05 PM You're the DM, you can do what you want.

I believe that Libris Mortis goes into the reason why most undead don't advance by class. Their undead state causes them to be stuck in a rut, they don't learn from their experiences. They just hang out in graveyards and eat people. Pretty boring.

Since you have Libri Mortis, you should look at Gravetouched Ghoul, a template you can add to a humanoid with class levels.
The Vorpal Tribble
01-27-06, 12:18 PM If an undead has a humanoidish body, manipulative digits and is sentient, then there are no rules saying it can't have a player class. I honestly don't know how a psionic character with a rotten or nonexistent brain works, but its been done :rolleyes:
BraveSirPatrick
01-27-06, 01:22 PM According to the Monster FAQ, if I added 10 levels of cleric to my CR 8 Mohrg, it would be a CR 13 monster (since the cleric class levels are most likely nonassociated class levels.)

Sound overpowered,? About right?
ubernex
01-27-06, 02:15 PM According to the Monster FAQ, if I added 10 levels of cleric to my CR 8 Mohrg, it would be a CR 13 monster (since the cleric class levels are most likely nonassociated class levels.)

Sound overpowered,? About right?

I've always been a little dodgy on the whole associated/non idea but as far as CR13 goes thank about this:

The creature now has a issue with choice of how to deal with an encounter. It can use its clerical abilities to buff itself up, turning it into a very enhyanced Mohrg, with more HP and abilities than a normal Mohrg would ever have. Or it could primarilly use its clerical abilities in combat, in this case its a 10th level caster with about 100 extra hit points.

My hunch is that CR13 might feel a little low for this thing, but treating the Cleric levels on a 1-for-1 gives CR18, which feels rather high for this. Maybe take a couple run-throughs of how a cannonical D&D party would deal with it at a couple differnt levels.

Edit\/\/\/\/ - dok makes a great point below on the whole dispelling/saves point.
dok
01-27-06, 02:20 PM CR 13 is about right. The PCs have a better than 50/50 chance of dispelling any buffs it uses. Any offensive spells it uses will have DCs that are two to three points lower than what a "pure NPC" spellcaster would get. +10 cleric HD for +5 CR gets it +7 BAB, +5 Fortitude and Will, and +3 Reflex; for the same CR increase, you could add 20 undead HD, which would give +10 BAB, +6 Fortitude and Reflex, and +10 Will. So the cleric levels add less feats, less BAB, less saves, and fewer ability score increases than pure racial advancement. They do give some spellcasting which gives the creature more options, but the power level of the spells gained (maximum 5th) is lower than the power level of the PC's spellcasting and resistance. (13th)

Remember that while a creature can have a lot of options, in the avearge 6-round fight, it's only going to get to use a few of them. If it can use at most 6 spells, then we really only need to consider the impact of the 6 most powerful spells, and their DCs, relative to the party.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BraveSirPatrick 01-27-06, 10:49 AM	For my next adventure I would like my BBEG to be an undead. I'm not using a vampire or lich since I think they are overused and I can't justify (in my storyline) how my BBEG came to be either of those things. I think that I will use either a Mohrg (preferably) or a Wight. I have a question or two. Is it feasible to give them class levels, or should I follow the undead monster class guidelines in Libris Mortis? Regarding the Undead monster class in Libris Mortis; IIRC I have to finish out the undead monster class progression before I can add class levels. I can't have a Mohrg 5/Cleric 8 BBEG? The Libris Mortis guidelines seem to restrictive. You need to take 8 class levels to complete the Wight class (the Mohrg is 20... not going to happen) to simulate a CR 3 monster. Since I want my BBEG to be about CR 13, I can only add 5 levels of cleric. What's the best way to give my BBEG an undead form and 7 or more levels in cleric???
Seraph of Babel 01-27-06, 11:12 AM	Assuming your BBEG is an NPC (which is usually the case), ignore the monster class which is designed for PC. A mohrg is CR8. You can advance it by racial HD or simply add class levels. If you're not sure how to do so, see http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=564873
BraveSirPatrick 01-27-06, 11:50 AM	One more stupid question that you already answered... I can advance it by class levels even though the entry does not state " by class level" under advancement? I'm not breaking a fundamental rule? My crops won't whither, the river won't dry up, and I won't have brought a plague unto myself by doing so? Are you sure????
Elendur 01-27-06, 12:05 PM	You're the DM, you can do what you want. I believe that Libris Mortis goes into the reason why most undead don't advance by class. Their undead state causes them to be stuck in a rut, they don't learn from their experiences. They just hang out in graveyards and eat people. Pretty boring. Since you have Libri Mortis, you should look at Gravetouched Ghoul, a template you can add to a humanoid with class levels.
The Vorpal Tribble 01-27-06, 12:18 PM	If an undead has a humanoidish body, manipulative digits and is sentient, then there are no rules saying it can't have a player class. I honestly don't know how a psionic character with a rotten or nonexistent brain works, but its been done :rolleyes:
BraveSirPatrick 01-27-06, 01:22 PM	According to the Monster FAQ, if I added 10 levels of cleric to my CR 8 Mohrg, it would be a CR 13 monster (since the cleric class levels are most likely nonassociated class levels.) Sound overpowered,? About right?
ubernex 01-27-06, 02:15 PM	According to the Monster FAQ, if I added 10 levels of cleric to my CR 8 Mohrg, it would be a CR 13 monster (since the cleric class levels are most likely nonassociated class levels.) Sound overpowered,? About right? I've always been a little dodgy on the whole associated/non idea but as far as CR13 goes thank about this: The creature now has a issue with choice of how to deal with an encounter. It can use its clerical abilities to buff itself up, turning it into a very enhyanced Mohrg, with more HP and abilities than a normal Mohrg would ever have. Or it could primarilly use its clerical abilities in combat, in this case its a 10th level caster with about 100 extra hit points. My hunch is that CR13 might feel a little low for this thing, but treating the Cleric levels on a 1-for-1 gives CR18, which feels rather high for this. Maybe take a couple run-throughs of how a cannonical D&D party would deal with it at a couple differnt levels. Edit\/\/\/\/ - dok makes a great point below on the whole dispelling/saves point.
dok 01-27-06, 02:20 PM	CR 13 is about right. The PCs have a better than 50/50 chance of dispelling any buffs it uses. Any offensive spells it uses will have DCs that are two to three points lower than what a "pure NPC" spellcaster would get. +10 cleric HD for +5 CR gets it +7 BAB, +5 Fortitude and Will, and +3 Reflex; for the same CR increase, you could add 20 undead HD, which would give +10 BAB, +6 Fortitude and Reflex, and +10 Will. So the cleric levels add less feats, less BAB, less saves, and fewer ability score increases than pure racial advancement. They do give some spellcasting which gives the creature more options, but the power level of the spells gained (maximum 5th) is lower than the power level of the PC's spellcasting and resistance. (13th) Remember that while a creature can have a lot of options, in the avearge 6-round fight, it's only going to get to use a few of them. If it can use at most 6 spells, then we really only need to consider the impact of the 6 most powerful spells, and their DCs, relative to the party.