Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uratoh 10-08-06, 08:42 PM	I realize an ogre magi as is can be a good challenge at its normal CR etc, but giving one class levels to make it stronger creates a problem of proportion...it gets 4 class levels with disassociated before it starts breaking even, and their abilities dont hold up at ALL at higher levels...but by the standard CR system, they end up a CR 10 monster with a bunch of weakish abilities, etc, that dont give them any edge against higher level PCs...i need one for a mastermind villain, but @_@
PhaedrusXY 10-08-06, 09:09 PM	They are more of a fighter than a caster by far. So add fighter-type classes to them, especially those that benefit from a high charisma. Four levels of an evil palladin variant, 3 levels of hexblade, and two levels of monk gets them Charisma to saves twice (vs spells), Turn Undead to fuel divine feats, and Mettle + Evasion. That would be a CR 15 with 14 hit dice. Give it a reach weapon and feats to capitalize on it. It can be the mastermind via its great Charisma score and skill use (Diplomacy, etc). I would suggest houseruling that its Spell Resistance increases with class levels, also. Otherwise it becomes useless. I'd also suggest maxing its ranks in Use Magic Device, and making liberal use of it.
Starman IX 10-09-06, 01:50 AM	Even though sorcerer is the favored class for an ogre mage, you should treat it as a "nonassociated class" for the purpose of adjusting the creature's Challenge Rating (see page 294 in the Monster Manual). That's because even though the ogre mage has spell-like abilities, it doesn't have any natural ability to cast spells as a sorcerer, so its spellcasting ability usually isn't very strong. Also, an ogre mage is fundamentally a fighting creature, despite its magical abilities.Thus, each level of sorcerer adds only +1/2 to the ogre mage's CR instead of +1.Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20030905a) for the quote. Yesh, it's official. Add 20 levels of sorcerer, and viola, instant CR 18 badass. Give or take a few levels depending on your crew.
Uratoh 10-09-06, 02:07 AM	technically speaking doesnt it become an 'associated class' after five levels of sorcerer? Edit: I'm planning on leveling one as a Marshal (Miniatures Handbook) in any case.
Starman IX 10-09-06, 02:26 AM	Eh, if so, I haven't read it.
Uratoh 10-09-06, 03:04 AM	page 294. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original HD. At that point, each additional level of the same class or similar is considered associated. Fun fact! Human druid at lv 8 is CR 8. A Gnoll, with 2 racial HD, treats druid as nonassociated for 2 levels. CR 1, +1/2 +1/2. CR 2. add on 6 more levels, it now has 2 racial HD and 8 Druid levels...it's CR 8 :p.
Starman IX 10-09-06, 03:20 AM	*need to learn to not skim through stuff* Eh, learn something new everyday.
runestar 10-09-06, 03:29 AM	Given its high cr to HD ratio, and lack of synergy with any class whatsoever, I would say that all base classes be treated as non-assciated.:) But then, it's still quite weak though.:( Anyone ever tried to minmax one?:P
75RD Drum Clip 10-09-06, 03:41 AM	I only use CR and ECL as reference point when awarding XP. I have found that sometimes when calculating XP the amount seemed wrong if going by strict CR ECL rules. My players supported my using Ad Hoc XP awards.
Starman IX 10-09-06, 03:42 AM	Anyone ever tried to minmax one?:PI dunno if you can call this min-max, but I tried to make a half-fiend natural dire weretiger ogre mage once. Even came up with a story/adventure to use with it. The thing is, doing that was like a kid looking at a ball of sugar. Sure, he thinks it'll be great, but once he take a couple of bites he gets sick on it.
75RD Drum Clip 10-09-06, 03:50 AM	Anyone ever tried to minmax one?:P I had an BBEG Ogre Magi named Malice who was a Wizard/Archmage who caused quite a few deaths to PCs. He ended up with a Staff of the Magi taken off the body of one of the fallen PC wizards. Malice initially was introduced to the PCs as a 9th wizard and he earned enough XP over the years of interaction with various PC parties and individuals that he became a Archmage and came to rule a small area. Eventually he was slain by a PC named Porthos who was Celectial Elf Paladin/Dragon Slayer.
Alac Luin 10-09-06, 01:18 PM	technically speaking doesnt it become an 'associated class' after five levels of sorcerer? Those 5 levels would be +2.5 CR With 3.X's habit of rounding down, that would be a +2 CR. That would translate to 6 levels of Nonassociated Class Levels before it's a 10CR creature. EDIT: I'm wrong :oopps:
Uratoh 10-09-06, 05:40 PM	Those 5 levels would be +2.5 CR With 3.X's habit of rounding down, that would be a +2 CR. That would translate to 6 levels of Nonassociated Class Levels before it's a 10CR creature. But the Ogre Magi is CR 8 to begin with. only 4 class levels and its CR 10.
Alac Luin 10-09-06, 05:49 PM	But the Ogre Magi is CR 8 to begin with. only 4 class levels and its CR 10. Ack, you're right. For what ever reason, I was running with the 7 in the LA, not the 8 for CR. I know better, but used the wrong number.:embarrass
spncrbrrtt 10-09-06, 05:59 PM	I had an BBEG Ogre Magi named Malice who was a Wizard/Archmage who caused quite a few deaths to PCs. He ended up with a Staff of the Magi taken off the body of one of the fallen PC wizards. Malice initially was introduced to the PCs as a 9th wizard and he earned enough XP over the years of interaction with various PC parties and individuals that he became a Archmage and came to rule a small area. Eventually he was slain by a PC named Porthos who was Celectial Elf Paladin/Dragon Slayer. Pothos as in the dragonlance cahracter? Speaker of the Suns Porthos? I just read a book with him in it. Do you have stats for him? It'd be cool to use him in my newcoming dragonlance campaign. He'd have to ba an NPC though.