Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DMDaddy 12-04-05, 11:29 AM	Fighter11, Fighter11, Wiz9/Druid5, Ranger8/Rogue4, Rogue11 Vs. any demon or devil with CR10-16 These characters are totally wiped out. Is the CR incorrect? or are my players stupid? Keep in mind that I use these monsters to the best of their abilities. Any suggestions on how I should prepare these characters to face such challenges?
Realms of Chaos 12-04-05, 12:19 PM	The CR 16 guys I can imagine taking them out the CR 10 Guys are more of a mystery. The odds are that the party just aren't using their abilities properly. Could you post up statistic blocks for the characters. Anything from the Player's handbook and Dungeon master guide, and monster manual 3.5 is open content. What Items do they have What Favored enemies does the Ranger/Rogue have What feats do the fighters have What spells can your party cast. I need more info.
JBW 12-04-05, 12:32 PM	My group (Human Fighter6/Tempest4, Changeling Warlock 10, Human Bard 10, and Human Cleric 10) took out a Barbed Devil (CR 11) within three rounds. This was after the Barbed Devil had already taken a suprise action! I was a tough fight - two of the four characters were cowering from the Fear at the end, but it's an Eberron game and Action Points allowed the PCs to overcome SR, make critically important checks, and otherwise achieve success with greater ease than is normal. It was killed with Slay Living. Cast Defensively - needed to roll a 6+ (75% chance of success) Touch - needed to roll a 9+ (45% cumulative chance of success) SR - needed to roll a 13+ (18% cumulative chance of success) Devil's Save - needed to roll 5- (cumulative chance of success 4.5%) So, basically he pulled of a 1-in-20 victory. OK, this might not be the best example... Jay
obrysii 12-04-05, 12:48 PM	Anything from the Player's handbook and Dungeon master guide, and monster manual 3.5 is open content. Not true, and it would be unwise to say that. Anything in the SRD is open content. It just so happens that much of what are in those core rulebooks is open content. The things on this page are the only things you are allowed to post: Here (http://www.d20srd.org/)
savant_warlord13 12-04-05, 04:13 PM	do they have the proper weapons to overcome damage reduction? if it has regeneration, do they know how to get past that? and why in the 666 layers of the abyss don't they have a cleric who can cast dismissal if neccessary!?!
DMDaddy 12-04-05, 04:14 PM	The CR 16 guys I can imagine taking them out the CR 10 Guys are more of a mystery. The odds are that the party just aren't using their abilities properly. Could you post up statistic blocks for the characters. Anything from the Player's handbook and Dungeon master guide, and monster manual 3.5 is open content. What Items do they have What Favored enemies does the Ranger/Rogue have What feats do the fighters have What spells can your party cast. I need more info. Their stats are high with at least one 19 and 18 and the rest are around 16. Hit points are higher than average. ITEMS. Their total character wealth is close to what the DMG suggests. That may be the problem. With the wealth by level you can't buy that much. Therefore they don't have much. Their spell selection was mediocre. The problem with the monsters is the DR of 10 and the incredibly high + to attack. Of course the fear effect makes problems.
Purkake 12-04-05, 04:35 PM	Well, the point is that they are demons & devils, not your avarage run-of-the-mill int 3 magical beasts. Also they, like dragons, have it all: dr, regen, sr, sp and some other cool stuff. So they are supposed to be hard, you don't just go to hell and kill them all, you run form them(wouldn't you run).
DMDaddy 12-05-05, 01:09 AM	Well, the point is that they are demons & devils, not your avarage run-of-the-mill int 3 magical beasts. Also they, like dragons, have it all: dr, regen, sr, sp and some other cool stuff. So they are supposed to be hard, you don't just go to hell and kill them all, you run form them(wouldn't you run). I think my players also get the "point": They are demons & devils. After three or four of them, they did start running: every time I rolled a Random Encounter and said, "You see what looks like a ...(insert demon/devil description)..." One of my stupid fighters decided to stay and fight and said, "I pull out a potion" (move action)..."and drink it" (standard action)....character speaks as a free action: "Hey Druid cast some really good spell on me." So, I guess I'm playing these baddies to their fullest; making them super hard. Plus, I don't let the players see the MM. They have to succeed on an appropriate Knowledge DC to learn 1 or 2 abilities of these monsters. So far, they've learned that DR 10/good, some of the immunities and resistances, and a few other special atttacks and abilities. For the most part, they don't know what to do. It's awesome DMing with high level newbies (2 years 2nd edition). Less than 5 months 3.5. When they fought the Ice Devil, they were physically in the Astral Plane. So combat was 3 dimensional. The Fear Aura (Su) got all but the druid/sorcerer. He ran and the Ice Devil cast Cone of cold (quickened) then Ice storm. Then the Slow (Su) completely allowed this monster to womp on the fighter for a few rounds. Spear +20/+15/+10 and bite +14 and tail +14. After 3 rounds and 15 hits, the devil telepathied, "I don't have time for you magets. We will meet again and you will do my bidding for your lives that I've just spared." CR13
DMDaddy 12-05-05, 01:31 AM	do they have the proper weapons to overcome damage reduction? if it has regeneration, do they know how to get past that? and why in the 666 layers of the abyss don't they have a cleric who can cast dismissal if neccessary!?! They didn't know any of these things. Each character made a Knowledge DC and learned 5 things: DR, using Dismissal, Attack stats, one spell like ability, and one special attack. (That's how I use knowledge DCs, if I'm understanding the rules correctly.) With 3.5, keep in mind that these players have only played: 3rd level for 4 sessions, 5 and 6 level for 6 sessions, and 11 level for 2 sessions. They know absolutely nothing about 3.5 and their biggest experience comes from playing all the 3.0 and 3.5 D&D video games. Ages 33, 32, 27, 15, 14, and 11. I guess the point is; they were/are ill-equipped and ill-experienced.
Kastas 12-05-05, 02:01 AM	I think that a more varied party would have had a better chance. Most of your party is melee-based, but the game is designed with the assumption that the party will have a primary arcane spellcaster and a primary divine spellcaster. Your party has only a multiclassed wizard/druid, which is a very suboptimal combination, as far as combat goes. Since neither of his individual spellcasting classes are very high (relative to the rest of the party), he is losing out on access to the higher level spells and high caster level that the game takes for granted.
DMDaddy 12-05-05, 02:53 AM	I think that a more varied party would have had a better chance. Most of your party is melee-based, but the game is designed with the assumption that the party will have a primary arcane spellcaster and a primary divine spellcaster. Your party has only a multiclassed wizard/druid, which is a very suboptimal combination, as far as combat goes. Since neither of his individual spellcasting classes are very high (relative to the rest of the party), he is losing out on access to the higher level spells and high caster level that the game takes for granted. I see your point about needing a varied party. How can I fix it? What about making my four main players choose between 4 characters consisting of: Wiz11 or Sorc11 Cleric11 Figh11 Rogue11 How might this work, if they don't prefer these core classes? What about this option? Will this make them super powerful by making them equivalent to 22nd level characters? Wiz11/Fight11, Cleric11/Fight11, Fight11/Sor11, Rogue11/Fight11, "Questions? And Questions?" I'd make this DM make a knowledge (any) DC 20 for 1 answer; or 2, if they succeed by more than +5. -DM rolls 20 +20.-"Answers Please," with a big grin. :D
savant_warlord13 12-05-05, 03:35 PM	forcing a character class on them is a bad idea, suggest cleric instead
Kresalak 12-05-05, 04:06 PM	It sounds like your players are not playing characters nearly as powerful as mine. We consist of: An 11th level Half-Dragon Fighter A 12th level Human Cleric/1st level Hierophant A 12th level Tiefling Warlock/fighter A 2nd level 8 HD Succubus Rogue1/Shadowdancer 1 and my 12th level cohort, a wizard 5/wild mage 7 We slaughtered a CR 13 Ice Devil in 2 rounds. The only action it got was a Cone of Cold. Conclusion? Your players may be level 11, but if they have made their characters badly, and lack good spellcasters (at this level the fighters should be complaining "We don't get to do anything!"). Your best bet is either to A. suggest to them that they should have a more balanced party, and offer to let them remake their characters, or B. Send lower CR creatures at them.
cwslyclgh 12-05-05, 04:31 PM	Do not always play them to thier full potential, always play them to the potential that thier Intelligence score dictates... (in some cases this may well be to thier full potential, in others it will not be nearly so).
Purkake 12-05-05, 05:03 PM	Well Int 22 isn't exacly your avarage village fool... And of course you can do little min/maxing here and there(not that it is a bad thing) and kick any monsters ass real bad...
WhtKnt 12-05-05, 05:04 PM	Do not always play them to thier full potential, always play them to the potential that thier Intelligence score dictates... (in some cases this may well be to thier full potential, in others it will not be nearly so).And if you reference the intelligence scores for any demon or devil of CR 10 or higher, almost all of them are high enough to make full use of their abilities in a tactical manner. The exception might be the retriever (a demonic construct), and it's probably "programmed" to use its abilities to best advantage. The fact is, demons and devils are designed to be fearsome opponents. Even an evil outsider of average intelligence is almost certainly going to be fully aware of its abilities and how to best apply them in combat. I speak from experience when I say that, played to the full extent of their ability and with an intelligence as close as I can approximate (not being of godlike stature, or even genius-level intellect, myself) to theirs, a balor or pit fiend will not only eat the lunch of any party under 18th level, it will also enslave them and have them go out and bring it more lunches to consume! There are ancient wyrms in my campaign that don't boast too loudly of their ability, for fear that something might hear them and come to test their prowess. It does appear that your group is both ill-prepared and ill-equipped. A cleric is a must when fighting the more powerful demons, as are holy items. Try letting them do some research (through a sage, or on their own if libraries exist in your world) to learn a little more about what they're facing. Above all, they should realize that they are not invulnerable and cannot defeat everything they meet. There is a time to fight and a time to run, and when you've hit the bad guy with everything you have, scored a critical and maxed damage, and he's still coming... it's time to run (actually, at that point, it's probably too late). Demons and devils can be defeated, but you have to go into it with the knowledge of what you're up against and an idea of their weaknesses. And be sure that you choose the battlefield. Facing a demon or devil on it's terms is suicidal. Bring it to you, if at all possible.
cwslyclgh 12-05-05, 05:54 PM	And if you reference the intelligence scores for any demon or devil of CR 10 or higher, almost all of them are high enough to make full use of their abilities in a tactical manner. lets look at Devils I do not think that an INT 12 Barbed Devil should be as adept as using his abilities (nor fight as brilliantly) as a an INT 26 pit fiend. The Barbed Devil is not always going to make the best tactical descision, might over look the danger of a particlular opponent, might decide that it is "funner" to melee early then to sit back and hammer the party with spell like abilities for more then a couple of rounds, etc. the pit fiend on the other hand will always make the best descision based upon the situation, will aviod melee unless there was an obvious advantage to meleeing, and will always seek to disable or kill his opponents in the most direct and expedient manner. Horned Devils (int 14) would fall someplace in between although more closer to the barbed devil in propesity to make mistakes, ice devils (int 22) would be played much like the pit fiend (any creature with an int of 20+ should rarely make a tactical error). Demons: Bebiliths have an Into of 11, they are just as prone to makeing tactical mistakes as is you average run of the mill guy on the street, and trust me that happens alot. Balors and and Nalfeshnee have int of 20 + so see my note on ice devils and pit fiends above). Hezrou (int 14) should make a good general use of thier abilities, but not always in the most appropriate way, they would be likly to look for immediate outcome rather then long term affects, trying to do the most they can this round and not thinking about the next round until the time has come to think about that round. Glabrezu (int 16 would be the same general way, but would have a better view of the big picture, they would be less likly to put them selves at a later disadvantage for instantaneous gratification, Mariliths (int 18) would make very good use of their special abilities, tactical mistakes would be few and far between, they would have an excellent grasp of the big picture as well as the round by round basics, they would be unlikly to take unnessicary risks, and would tend to try to end the combat as expediently as possible unless they deemed themselves to be in no real danger from the opponents they faced (based upon observation, they would be very unlikly to underestimate opponents simply because of arrogance etc).
tiercel 12-05-05, 08:01 PM	Though your party is slightly larger than usual, it doesn't look (at first blush) like your party is very optimized. (That isn't necessarily BAD, it just means that the PCs/party collectively are not as powerful as they could be... and so you might have to throw slightly lower CRs at them.) First of all, you could allow (especially after several encounters) sort of "general knowledge" check (or consultations with an NPC) about "what hurts demons/devils" -- that is, that good-aligned and/or silver weapons tend to hurt devils more effectively, and that good-aligned and/or cold iron weapons tend to hurt demons more effectively. (Whether you actually need either, one, or both for a particular foe is still a individual Knowledge check, of course.) What they do to address these needs is going to depend on the campaign, but if they are constantly fighting demons or devils then holy weapons are going to be things they really, really want. Barring this, your PCs will probably want to procure gallon-sized jugs of oil of align weapon: good. It looks like to me that the problem is very likely that you have high-magic, generally flying foes against a party of PCs that has low amounts of magic (only one caster, and he is multiclassed without the benefit of a multiclass PrC) and rely significantly on melee full-round attacks for damage -- while not being able to bypass the DR of their enemies. I realize your Wiz/Druid is 14th level total while the others are 11-12, but he would probably be significantly more powerful as a Wiz3/Dru3/Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm) 8. Even without the use of Practiced Spellcaster from the Complete X books, he would still have caster level 11 in both Wizard and Druid, and spells per day as an 11th level caster in both classes. By level 11, fighters are looking less attractive in part (in particular, if you aren't using the Complete X expansion books) because they start "running out of feats to take." Sure, you can always take more feats but if they don't build upon each other, the amount of power it adds to the character is small. (For example, you could imagine a fighter who used his Fighter bonus feats to take Weapon Focus: everything.) You might consider allowing additional feats or PrCs available if you are playing Core only. If they are young/inexperienced players, you might choose or create a PrC that is roleplay-appropriate for their character concept, and make it available as an option to them -- something that would further define their personality, give in-game plot hooks, and give a little extra boost in power. Your rogue will be limited in combat if he can't pull sneak attacks, which very often means moving into flanking melee position with at least one other party member (and hoping not to get utterly pasted). Presumably he'll want to judiciously use Spring Attack or get his Con as high as possible before stepping in for a Two-Weapon-Fighting full attack of sneak attacks. If your players are still learning, I'd say hit them with simpler, lower CR challenges for now. Work them slowly up to more challenging fights. Let them figure out how to deal with Big Bruisers, then flyers, then spellcasters, then creatures with special defenses, then creatures that can do a couple of of these.... before you hit them with a creature that can do them all. As your players start getting more into the game, they may eventually feel like making "better" (well, more optimized) characters, and if they do, you can start a new campaign (or a new story within your existing one, with new PCs). On the other hand, if they are having fun with their existing characters, just scale back a bit and enjoy! ---------- It has always been my opinion that any creature that has a special ability knows what that ability is and how/when to use it, at least in its most straightforward incarnation. Yes, you might need a pretty good Int to come up with really creative uses for your spell-like abilities, but it should take very little Int to know what your abilities do and whether it might be a pretty good idea to use them. (Wolves have Int 2 and use their tripping ability as well as pack tactics just fine.) As a sample, let's look at a couple of Core devils: barbed devil, Int 12, Wis 14: an average devil of this type is a bit smarter than an average human. Its tactics are mostly straightforward (hit, grab, grapple, impale). Since it knows it needs to get in close for its best tactic to work, it is probably used to greater teleporting in next to a prospective victim -- it also knows that it is probably a poor tactic against a foe who is obviously much bigger or stronger. Hold person and scorching ray are decent, obvious ranged choices if it can't or doesn't want to get in close, and its foes look like they are probably humanoid or not obviously immune/resistant to fire... its alignment-based attacks will probably be reserved for things that are obviously Chaotic (demons, slaads, anything using chaos-based attacks, possibly Chaotic clerics if it decides to take Religion as its Knowledge skill) or Good (angels/archons, anything using good-based attacks, possibly Good clerics if Knowledge: Religion). A normal devil of this type will probably not use its illusion ability often, and will probably use fairly straightforward illusions (e.g. simulate summoned devils of the type it can actually summon). With a reasonably good Wisdom, it won't make glaring errors of judgment, though it may be less than perfect. It is probably unlikely to tie itself up in a grapple with an enemy if there are multiple foes around, unless it has some reason to believe they can't hurt it much in the time it takes to kill its grappled foe. If things are going badly it is fairly likely to greater teleport away in time unless it can't or is explicitly ordered by a ranking devil not to (or similar). Note as well that these devils are both stealthy (Hide, Move Silently +21) and observant (Spot, Listen +19, Sense Motive +17) which tells me that they are not terribly likely to be straight-up wade-in-and-brawl fighters. Smells like a simple but effective ambusher to me.... ice devil, Int 22, Wis 22: here the monster is almost certainly more intelligent and has better judgment than the DM playing it. When encountered, it should virtually always have its fly ability already active (given its duration), and very likely its unholy aura ability as well (unless utterly surprised somehow). If it sees weapons being cast upon or magically oiled up, it should recognize those as primary threats (with its regeneration, good-aligned damage is almost all it has to worry about as long as it doesn't take huge amounts of damage in a single round). Its Spellcraft (and quite possibly Knowledge Religion) will tell it who enemy clerics are very quickly, making them targets to isolate or kill with alacrity. Given time to prepare, a devil of this sort will probably be encountered with numerous persistent images running as distractions, decoys, or false barriers, mixed in with walls of ice as actual barriers. If it can split up its foes with its (Sp), it can scatter a small clump with its fear aura and whomp on a single victim at a time with frightening efficiency. In fact, it should rarely face more than one foe at a time -- if enemies gang up, it simply greater teleports a short distance away to split them up once more. With its high intelligence and excellent judgment, a devil of this type should prove quite adept at just happening to choose the sort of illusions that would be most distracting to the foes it happens to face. It might also be able to guess with good accuracy whether foes would be more susceptible to its ice storm or cone of cold abilities. Given its high stealth and alertness skills, as well as its ability to make barriers and distractions (illusionary and telepathic), this devil should be extremely effective at striking from ambush, picking off individuals and setting an entirely different ambush the next time, never leaving tell-tale hallmarks of its next attack.
(Psi)SeveredHead 12-05-05, 11:12 PM	do they have the proper weapons to overcome damage reduction? In 3.5's early days, when some people were complaining about the new DR system, the authors said the CR assumes the PCs do not have the right weapon. Having the right weapon makes things easier. if it has regeneration, do they know how to get past that? The first time I used a cornugon, the players did not know this. Oops. and why in the 666 layers of the abyss don't they have a cleric who can cast dismissal if neccessary!?! Because it's a sucky spell. There are lots of other spells of that level that can kill outsiders and other things! So maybe it doesn't suck at what it does, but it sucks when you go three days with wasted spell slots. If I were a cleric, I'd just use slay living. Dismissal is useless against orcs, bandits, evil archmages, and other such common threats.
Realms of Chaos 12-05-05, 11:22 PM	The thing is that your player won't win if they don't think that they will or can. This isn't a question of mentality but of behavior. If your party believes that it is doomed, several members run away to avoid death and those remaining aren't as likely to use their spells or magic items as they think the runners will return later and drag their corpses to a temple. For that matter, I really doubt if a party would use tactics as advanced as flanking to get sneak attacks or using wildshape. If you want to get your party out of a Demon/Devil phobic stage, there is a very simple step that you can take. Send them on an adventure to an abandoned monastary, tomb, mountain, citidel, etc. on a mission and make sure that they know that a Demon/Devil is there. That way, they will A: prepare themself for a battle against demons in a town by buying various scrolls or several flasks of holy water and B: not run away when they face the boss Devil/Demon (of about their average party level or slightly higher by no more than 2) because they know that they have to get past it to complete the dungeon and because they know that you actually hand-picked the battle for their abilities to be able to somehow defeat it instead of thinking that you just made a roll on a random table that indicated that they're fighting a random Demon/Devil. It also wouldn't hurt to remind them of their capabilities before the battle. Secondly, according to your rules of knowledge checks to discern abilities, your party should be able to make a Knowledge (The planes) check to find the basic set of Tana'ari or Baatezu traits listed in the monster manual (The DC should be no higher and probably a little lower than 20 as the abilities of devils and demons are pretty well-known). This way, you eliminate the fear of the unknown factor. Adding to this, you might want to let your characters see that certain tactics they use don't seem to be dealing any damage (Damage reduction or energy resistance) or that wounds seem to heal themselves on them own (regeneration or fast healing) and they should have a pretty good idea of other abilities that can be discerned (like a demon crying out in the dark "I can see you" to indicate that it has darkvision or communicating with a player telepathically so that they realize that they can do that).