Alternate Gargoyles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Gargoyles [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Noth
10-17-03, 12:19 AM What would the level-adjustment be for a gargoyle?

I haven't seen the revised version and don't know if its any different so lets stick with 3.0.

I want to play one but lets face it, they're not very economical PC's. The level adjustment would be way too high (fly75ft) for a creature who A) has no bonus to STR, B) takes heavy penalties to INT and CHA, and C) probably shouldn't have a CON score at all (a creature that needn't eat or breath sounds like a creature without a metabolism to me- just imagine a gargoyle dying of poison, or bleeding to death- it isn't right), which incidently is his highest ability (+8).

So what needs to be done to make a more playable Gargoyle? First of all, scrap the fly speed. Scoff I hear you say, but this should drop his ECL a good bit. Lets say that he's a Kapoacinth who gets swim75ft, which is far less useful but still very cool. Or make his wings vestigial letting him glide from an altitude but not fly (ala' the Gargoyles cartoon), I'd also give this version an enhancement to STR and a climb speed. If I went with this how do the mechanics work for gliding?

And the DR 15/+1? At higher levels, hell at mid levels, this may as well not even exist. Change to 10/+3.

As I mentioned earlier, a creature who needn't eat or breath should have CON as a nonability. Thus making him immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save unless it also effects objects, Ability damage, and Ability drain. I'm a little unclear as to what the book means when it says that a creature with the CON nonability "always fails Constitution checks." Does this mean that he can't run? I do think that a gargoyle with the CON nonability should still be able to heal damage naturally so I've given mine fast healing 1.

Also, would having a CON nonability make him immune to blindness/deafness? What about coup de gras, death from massive damage, critical hits, sneak attack, or death effects?

In the version below I've added a +8 racial bonus to Spot checks, because it makes sence to me that a creatures who hunts on wing would have this. I've increased his CR by one because the racial bonus to Spot and the enhanced DR is rather significant, as is the climb speed which alows him to fight from a wall without provoking an AoO. The STR boost in minimal.

So I'm thinking something like this-

Gargoyle
Medium-sized magical beast
4d10
Init+2
Speed 45ft/ climb 20ft
AC 16 (+2DEX, +4 Natural)
Attacks: 2claws+8 melee, bite+6 melee, gore+6 melee
Damage: Claw d4+2, Bite d6+2, Gore d6+2
Face/Reach: 5ft by 5ft/ 5ft
Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 10/+3, fast healing 1, freeze, glide
Saves:FORT??? , R+6, Will+1
Abilities: STR14, DEX14, CON-, INT9, WIS11, CHA9
Skills: Hide+9*, Listen+4, Spot+12*
Feats: Multiattack, Flyby attack
----------------------------------------------------
Climate/Terrain: any land or underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or wing (5-16)
CR: 5
Treasure: standard
Alignment: usually chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class

His CR is alittle higher so the ECL may even out to whatever it is out of the MM, but with the minor improvements I've made here, namely the enhanced DR, climb speed, and the slew of immunities acquired with the CON nonabillity (which almost pays for itself in lost HP) I'd be more willing to pay it.

So what do you think?
Level adjustment +7?
Also, I need some mechanics for gliding!
Greyman
10-17-03, 02:01 AM Noth: What would the level-adjustment be for a gargoyle?

I haven't seen the revised version and don't know if its any different so lets stick with 3.0.

Check the S.R.D. (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/).

Gargoyles in 3.5 are virtually unchanged from 3.0. They are now monstrous humanoids, not magical beasts but have Toughness to help make up for the hp difference. Toughness replaces Weapon Finesse, but their strength bonus is now the same as their dexterity bonus. Their DR value dropped a little.

Their LA is given as +5.

C) probably shouldn't have a CON score at all (a creature that needn't eat or breath sounds like a creature without a metabolism to me- just imagine a gargoyle dying of poison, or bleeding to death- it isn't right), which incidently is his highest ability (+8).

Gargoyles are not constructs made of stone in 3ed, they just look like it. The freeze ability simply allows a gargoyle to pose motionless. It does not negate their need to eat or breathe.

[edit: ignore that. Gargoyles do not require food, water nor air. My mistake. They are still not constructs, just as Outsiders have a constitution despite sharing the same trait. They are life, Jim, just not as we know it.]

PS: Let me see if I've got this right, you want to make the creature more playable by making it tougher?
Noth
10-17-03, 02:08 AM Gargoyles are not constructs made of stone in 3ed, they just look like it. The freeze ability simply allows a gargoyle to pose motionless. It does not negate their need to eat or breathe.

Their description specifically states (in 3.0 at least) that they do not need to eat or breath.
trueanau1
10-17-03, 03:00 AM The glide ability is a tough one to deal with....

I do have a suggestion though:

First, the glide ability makes them immune to falling damage (spread the wings and break your fall...).

Second, I'm not even sure how to explain this one but here goes:

The "flight" aspect of gliding would actually be based off
"falling" (keeping in mind that the creature is immune to falling damage under my idea...).

Whenever a creature with the glide ability "falls" (s)he can chose to use their wings to move five times the horizontal distance that they "fell."

(If you fall ten feet then you can fly 50 ft)

Manuverablity is considered average, but the creature cannot gain altitude.... Using this ability causes the creature to gradually move it's vertical distance as it acheives its horizontal distance (instead of just droping 10 ft and then moving 50 it happens more on a slant)

Of course if you think that five times the distance fallen is too much/little feel free to change it. Maybe make it 10 times when moving with the wind (double) and only 2.5 times when fighting the breeze (half)....

So climb up something tall and push out so you can glide

Just an idea... I'm gonna go pass out....

Trueanau1
Noth
10-17-03, 03:17 AM Yes. This is right along the lines of what I had thinking

I was wondering just how to dictate the distance fell/distance glide ratio and 5X's the fallen distance sounds great, also a lot simpler than what I was working on.

I think that the glide rule helps make the gargoyle much more balanced for PC play as the player can no longer just fly away when things turn sour.

Still, having wings strong enough to glide this well should probably impart some bonus to Jump checks, +4 perhaps. That way the gargoyle can always make a standing leap into 15ft glide.
Hmm. Not too unbalancing I think.

What about level-adjustment for my presented gargoyle using Trueanau's glide rule? Class levels +6?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Noth 10-17-03, 12:19 AM	What would the level-adjustment be for a gargoyle? I haven't seen the revised version and don't know if its any different so lets stick with 3.0. I want to play one but lets face it, they're not very economical PC's. The level adjustment would be way too high (fly75ft) for a creature who A) has no bonus to STR, B) takes heavy penalties to INT and CHA, and C) probably shouldn't have a CON score at all (a creature that needn't eat or breath sounds like a creature without a metabolism to me- just imagine a gargoyle dying of poison, or bleeding to death- it isn't right), which incidently is his highest ability (+8). So what needs to be done to make a more playable Gargoyle? First of all, scrap the fly speed. Scoff I hear you say, but this should drop his ECL a good bit. Lets say that he's a Kapoacinth who gets swim75ft, which is far less useful but still very cool. Or make his wings vestigial letting him glide from an altitude but not fly (ala' the Gargoyles cartoon), I'd also give this version an enhancement to STR and a climb speed. If I went with this how do the mechanics work for gliding? And the DR 15/+1? At higher levels, hell at mid levels, this may as well not even exist. Change to 10/+3. As I mentioned earlier, a creature who needn't eat or breath should have CON as a nonability. Thus making him immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save unless it also effects objects, Ability damage, and Ability drain. I'm a little unclear as to what the book means when it says that a creature with the CON nonability "always fails Constitution checks." Does this mean that he can't run? I do think that a gargoyle with the CON nonability should still be able to heal damage naturally so I've given mine fast healing 1. Also, would having a CON nonability make him immune to blindness/deafness? What about coup de gras, death from massive damage, critical hits, sneak attack, or death effects? In the version below I've added a +8 racial bonus to Spot checks, because it makes sence to me that a creatures who hunts on wing would have this. I've increased his CR by one because the racial bonus to Spot and the enhanced DR is rather significant, as is the climb speed which alows him to fight from a wall without provoking an AoO. The STR boost in minimal. So I'm thinking something like this- Gargoyle Medium-sized magical beast 4d10 Init+2 Speed 45ft/ climb 20ft AC 16 (+2DEX, +4 Natural) Attacks: 2claws+8 melee, bite+6 melee, gore+6 melee Damage: Claw d4+2, Bite d6+2, Gore d6+2 Face/Reach: 5ft by 5ft/ 5ft Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 10/+3, fast healing 1, freeze, glide Saves:FORT??? , R+6, Will+1 Abilities: STR14, DEX14, CON-, INT9, WIS11, CHA9 Skills: Hide+9, Listen+4, Spot+12 Feats: Multiattack, Flyby attack ---------------------------------------------------- Climate/Terrain: any land or underground Organization: Solitary, pair, or wing (5-16) CR: 5 Treasure: standard Alignment: usually chaotic evil Advancement: By character class His CR is alittle higher so the ECL may even out to whatever it is out of the MM, but with the minor improvements I've made here, namely the enhanced DR, climb speed, and the slew of immunities acquired with the CON nonabillity (which almost pays for itself in lost HP) I'd be more willing to pay it. So what do you think? Level adjustment +7? Also, I need some mechanics for gliding!
Greyman 10-17-03, 02:01 AM	Noth: What would the level-adjustment be for a gargoyle? I haven't seen the revised version and don't know if its any different so lets stick with 3.0. Check the S.R.D. (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/). Gargoyles in 3.5 are virtually unchanged from 3.0. They are now monstrous humanoids, not magical beasts but have Toughness to help make up for the hp difference. Toughness replaces Weapon Finesse, but their strength bonus is now the same as their dexterity bonus. Their DR value dropped a little. Their LA is given as +5. C) probably shouldn't have a CON score at all (a creature that needn't eat or breath sounds like a creature without a metabolism to me- just imagine a gargoyle dying of poison, or bleeding to death- it isn't right), which incidently is his highest ability (+8). Gargoyles are not constructs made of stone in 3ed, they just look like it. The freeze ability simply allows a gargoyle to pose motionless. It does not negate their need to eat or breathe. [edit: ignore that. Gargoyles do not require food, water nor air. My mistake. They are still not constructs, just as Outsiders have a constitution despite sharing the same trait. They are life, Jim, just not as we know it.] PS: Let me see if I've got this right, you want to make the creature more playable by making it tougher?
Noth 10-17-03, 02:08 AM	Gargoyles are not constructs made of stone in 3ed, they just look like it. The freeze ability simply allows a gargoyle to pose motionless. It does not negate their need to eat or breathe. Their description specifically states (in 3.0 at least) that they do not need to eat or breath.
trueanau1 10-17-03, 03:00 AM	The glide ability is a tough one to deal with.... I do have a suggestion though: First, the glide ability makes them immune to falling damage (spread the wings and break your fall...). Second, I'm not even sure how to explain this one but here goes: The "flight" aspect of gliding would actually be based off "falling" (keeping in mind that the creature is immune to falling damage under my idea...). Whenever a creature with the glide ability "falls" (s)he can chose to use their wings to move five times the horizontal distance that they "fell." (If you fall ten feet then you can fly 50 ft) Manuverablity is considered average, but the creature cannot gain altitude.... Using this ability causes the creature to gradually move it's vertical distance as it acheives its horizontal distance (instead of just droping 10 ft and then moving 50 it happens more on a slant) Of course if you think that five times the distance fallen is too much/little feel free to change it. Maybe make it 10 times when moving with the wind (double) and only 2.5 times when fighting the breeze (half).... So climb up something tall and push out so you can glide Just an idea... I'm gonna go pass out.... Trueanau1
Noth 10-17-03, 03:17 AM	Yes. This is right along the lines of what I had thinking I was wondering just how to dictate the distance fell/distance glide ratio and 5X's the fallen distance sounds great, also a lot simpler than what I was working on. I think that the glide rule helps make the gargoyle much more balanced for PC play as the player can no longer just fly away when things turn sour. Still, having wings strong enough to glide this well should probably impart some bonus to Jump checks, +4 perhaps. That way the gargoyle can always make a standing leap into 15ft glide. Hmm. Not too unbalancing I think. What about level-adjustment for my presented gargoyle using Trueanau's glide rule? Class levels +6?