ALWAYS alignment...set in stone? [Archive] - Wizards Community

ALWAYS alignment...set in stone? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Uratoh
10-15-04, 01:51 AM under the alignment rules, is it possible in extreme circumstances for a demon, angel, etc to shift a degree in their alignment after long term exposure? or are those types so solidly set in stone it's impossible?
LunarCaustic
10-15-04, 02:04 AM I always think that it is possible, hence a fallen angel or risen ( sp?) fiend Dragons and other non-outsider creatures I change there alignment, LN Green and Blue Dragons are an example but thats just a house rule I use. but I dont think its 100% set in stone
cobaltstarfire
10-15-04, 04:36 AM I don't like how some sentient monsters are "always" some alignment, that's like saying a certain race (in our world) will always be smart just because of the race they are.

I think in dnd creatures that are 'always' whatever alignment are just as likely to experience some drift as any other creature.
Bones
10-15-04, 05:15 AM As a house rule, in extreem circumstances, it is possible for one of these creatures to change it's alignment. My rule is that 'always' means that the creature in question has a brain structure which precludes certain behavior. However, it is possible for the creature to go insane, which can take many forms, including an alignment shift. It may act perfectly sane, but by the standards of it's type it is insane.
RavinRay
10-15-04, 05:23 AM Yep, it's possible; in fact there's a picture of a fallen hound archon in an Art Gallery (BoVD I think; it had the head of a bulldog or some such breed); and there's a :mymy: sanctified red dragon in the BoED Art Gallery.
Tanuki, the Bewildered
10-15-04, 09:03 AM As a house rule, in extreem circumstances, it is possible for one of these creatures to change it's alignment.

That's not a house rule, that RAW.

MM3.5, Glossary, page 350. Alignment entry, 'Always' subentry:

It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.

ie: By the RAW, even Demons and Angels (beings aligned by the very nature of their existance) can change alignment, although running into one that did will be far from common - most people would be unlikely to run into one, and running into more than one would generally involve finding a single group of them.

There are even canon examples of fallen celestials - the Fallen Archons mentioned above, and at least 1 Arch-Devil (Beelzebub) is a fallen Celestial. I believe Belial and one other are as well. And the game Planescape: Torment featured a risen Succubus (Fall-From-Grace), who is Lawful Neutral, I believe.

Lesser 'always' creatures - Dragons and such - would be more likely than Fiends and Celestials to change alignment, albiet still not particularly often.
Mirtek
10-15-04, 09:19 AM under the alignment rules, is it possible in extreme circumstances for a demon, angel, etc to shift a degree in their alignment after long term exposure? or are those types so solidly set in stone it's impossible? See the explanation of the "always" alignment rule right in the MM.

There it already says that exception are possible, even for races with "always XY" alignements.
01d55
10-28-04, 11:20 PM My take: Generally, any evil creature without a magical connection to evil (Drow, Kobolds, ect.) are statistically evil for cultural reasons (strongest example: Drow) Such creatures, if raised in an outside society, have alignment as the host society. Creatures with a magical connection to evil (chromatic dragons, beholders) are belligerent under any circumstances, but may, under extreme circumstances, restrain these tendencies to personality quirks and take on differing alignments. The higher the int and /or wis of such a creature, the less likely this is, because greater mental acuity means you can better defend your own ideas against argument. Creatures, especially outsiders, with alignment subtypes, deviatation from their alignments alone is almost worth a legend. Also, if I'm not mistaken, a creature with an alignment subtype retains that subtype despite actual alignment, and alignment affecting spells (i.e. protection against evil) affect them as if they still had the subtyped alignment. Some creatures (such as Illithid) have a biological dependency on evil behaviour, and cannot deviate unless magically altered.
superdeadsmurf
10-29-04, 10:18 AM Also, if you're interested in seeing more deviation from the norm in terms of alignment, you might want to try out the Eberron Campaign Settiing. Blurred Alignments are somewhat common. You can never be sure when dealing with a Beholder, Dragon or Outsider if they are good or Evil. Dragons commonly follow other alignments than their racial tendacies. A good Black dragon taught the humanoid races druidic magic for example.
Ogre4Hire
10-29-04, 11:53 AM The only time when a creature will ALWAYS be of a specific alignment is if it is neutral and has an Int score of 2, 1, or -, because these creatures are not intelligent enough to know the difference.

(Yeah, I know that Zombies and Skeletons lack an intelligence score and are Neutral Evil, but I think that's a bunch of gnoll droppings on the part of Wizards).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uratoh 10-15-04, 01:51 AM	under the alignment rules, is it possible in extreme circumstances for a demon, angel, etc to shift a degree in their alignment after long term exposure? or are those types so solidly set in stone it's impossible?
LunarCaustic 10-15-04, 02:04 AM	I always think that it is possible, hence a fallen angel or risen ( sp?) fiend Dragons and other non-outsider creatures I change there alignment, LN Green and Blue Dragons are an example but thats just a house rule I use. but I dont think its 100% set in stone
cobaltstarfire 10-15-04, 04:36 AM	I don't like how some sentient monsters are "always" some alignment, that's like saying a certain race (in our world) will always be smart just because of the race they are. I think in dnd creatures that are 'always' whatever alignment are just as likely to experience some drift as any other creature.
Bones 10-15-04, 05:15 AM	As a house rule, in extreem circumstances, it is possible for one of these creatures to change it's alignment. My rule is that 'always' means that the creature in question has a brain structure which precludes certain behavior. However, it is possible for the creature to go insane, which can take many forms, including an alignment shift. It may act perfectly sane, but by the standards of it's type it is insane.
RavinRay 10-15-04, 05:23 AM	Yep, it's possible; in fact there's a picture of a fallen hound archon in an Art Gallery (BoVD I think; it had the head of a bulldog or some such breed); and there's a :mymy: sanctified red dragon in the BoED Art Gallery.
Tanuki, the Bewildered 10-15-04, 09:03 AM	As a house rule, in extreem circumstances, it is possible for one of these creatures to change it's alignment. That's not a house rule, that RAW. MM3.5, Glossary, page 350. Alignment entry, 'Always' subentry: It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions. ie: By the RAW, even Demons and Angels (beings aligned by the very nature of their existance) can change alignment, although running into one that did will be far from common - most people would be unlikely to run into one, and running into more than one would generally involve finding a single group of them. There are even canon examples of fallen celestials - the Fallen Archons mentioned above, and at least 1 Arch-Devil (Beelzebub) is a fallen Celestial. I believe Belial and one other are as well. And the game Planescape: Torment featured a risen Succubus (Fall-From-Grace), who is Lawful Neutral, I believe. Lesser 'always' creatures - Dragons and such - would be more likely than Fiends and Celestials to change alignment, albiet still not particularly often.
Mirtek 10-15-04, 09:19 AM	under the alignment rules, is it possible in extreme circumstances for a demon, angel, etc to shift a degree in their alignment after long term exposure? or are those types so solidly set in stone it's impossible? See the explanation of the "always" alignment rule right in the MM. There it already says that exception are possible, even for races with "always XY" alignements.
01d55 10-28-04, 11:20 PM	My take: Generally, any evil creature without a magical connection to evil (Drow, Kobolds, ect.) are statistically evil for cultural reasons (strongest example: Drow) Such creatures, if raised in an outside society, have alignment as the host society. Creatures with a magical connection to evil (chromatic dragons, beholders) are belligerent under any circumstances, but may, under extreme circumstances, restrain these tendencies to personality quirks and take on differing alignments. The higher the int and /or wis of such a creature, the less likely this is, because greater mental acuity means you can better defend your own ideas against argument. Creatures, especially outsiders, with alignment subtypes, deviatation from their alignments alone is almost worth a legend. Also, if I'm not mistaken, a creature with an alignment subtype retains that subtype despite actual alignment, and alignment affecting spells (i.e. protection against evil) affect them as if they still had the subtyped alignment. Some creatures (such as Illithid) have a biological dependency on evil behaviour, and cannot deviate unless magically altered.
superdeadsmurf 10-29-04, 10:18 AM	Also, if you're interested in seeing more deviation from the norm in terms of alignment, you might want to try out the Eberron Campaign Settiing. Blurred Alignments are somewhat common. You can never be sure when dealing with a Beholder, Dragon or Outsider if they are good or Evil. Dragons commonly follow other alignments than their racial tendacies. A good Black dragon taught the humanoid races druidic magic for example.
Ogre4Hire 10-29-04, 11:53 AM	The only time when a creature will ALWAYS be of a specific alignment is if it is neutral and has an Int score of 2, 1, or -, because these creatures are not intelligent enough to know the difference. (Yeah, I know that Zombies and Skeletons lack an intelligence score and are Neutral Evil, but I think that's a bunch of gnoll droppings on the part of Wizards).