Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jeremy757 11-08-06, 01:42 PM	I dislike the use of negative level effects, they just rub me the wrong way. So what would be a good substitute effect or ability for monsters that have negative level attacks like the vampire and shadow dragon? Thanks Jeremy
RavenDrake 11-08-06, 01:58 PM	The only problem I forsee is in finding something that can duplicate the Power of Level Loss without either being Ability Score Damage/Penalties or just being the same thing, just more complex or hevily reworked. Not that it can't be done, but it would take some time. Also, if you were to tell us what specifically you dislike about level loss(too complex? unrealistic to suddenly "lose" abilities? too powerful?) then it might be easier to come up with some ideas to replace or retrofit it.
Bounces 11-08-06, 02:04 PM	Depending on the type of monster you could do ability drain... For example since vampires already drain blood for 1d4 con it makes sense that they might do more con damage instead of negative levels on slam attacks...maybe. For the critter to keep the same challenge rating you would need to do a decent amount of con damage in a hit though...maybe 2d4 or 3d4. Your players aren't going to like it any more than the level drains. If you decide to do this I would take away Blood drain altogether... Alternatively you couldjust take the level drain away all together and adjust the challenge rating appropriately. I am AFB right now, so I only have the SRD to look at...but I think a non-level draining vampire but having everything else as it is now would probably make it a base creature +1 cr template instead of +2... That's my toughts on it anyways
Jeremy757 11-08-06, 02:05 PM	The only problem I forsee is in finding something that can duplicate the Power of Level Loss without either being Ability Score Damage/Penalties or just being the same thing, just more complex or hevily reworked. Not that it can't be done, but it would take some time. Also, if you were to tell us what specifically you dislike about level loss(too complex? unrealistic to suddenly "lose" abilities? too powerful?) then it might be easier to come up with some ideas to replace or retrofit it. Well in the past it has been a little complex for the quick combats I like to run. It slows down combat to an unacceptible level as everyone has to recalculate their characters stats.
Palomides 11-08-06, 02:12 PM	I don't know if it's something that exist in the rules but I'm in a campaign where undeads drain wisdom, levels and ages people. Our priest aged 8 years, and change his age group (losing 1 str, 1 con and 1 dex).
RavenDrake 11-08-06, 02:24 PM	Well in the past it has been a little complex for the quick combats I like to run. It slows down combat to an unacceptible level as everyone has to recalculate their characters stats. Remember, though, that Negative levels don't initially start as completely lost levels. Each negative level simply imposes a -1 penalty to Attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and effective character level. It's not until the "save or permenantly lose a level" that recalculations need occur. If you want to simplify things, try this: Have the saving throws after 24 hours represent trything to "Throw off" this negative level(like a disease). You have to succeed two saving throws in a row per negative level(roll seperately for each and keep track of rolls) to effectively throw it off, unless you recieve a restorative effect. This keeps negative levels dangerous, and maintains thier persistance, without having to recalculate stats. It does, however, signifigantly reduce thier overall penalty (since they can no longer result in permenant damage) and should be factored into the challenge rating for level draining undead. I would probably reduce thier CR by 1, at least, since an important factor of Challenge Rating is determining what resources you'd have to expend to overcome them. With Negative Levels no longer in the "Get rid of this or chance losing a chunk of power" category, it's not as vital to expend resources to get rid of them. Just some thoughts on the subject.
Pan0pticon 11-08-06, 02:29 PM	I've always disliked negative levels (and trading XP points for ANYTHING). The very idea that you become less experienced through any action of yourself or others is simply preposterous. Maybe with a memory modification, feeblemind, fumble, etc, but not a normal action. On the other hand, I find that ability drains are a more realistic view of this kind of damage. An encounter with an incorporeal undead might leave one feeling chilled, weak, or withered. This makes more sense in a gaming perspective than a negative level. Hit their hps, their abilities, but things like levels are best left alone. Anyway, doesn't a level drain simply encourage metagaming? How does one quantify the damage (in character, of course) of having lost a level? All in all, I find that my players and I greatly dislike negative levels and xp loss. I feel that it has more of an effect on taking players out of the game and back to their character sheets, which simply will not do. </rant> :banghead:
CroBob 11-08-06, 07:58 PM	I've never liked draining levels, either. The only time I'd ever do it is on a power-gamer who did something stupid. For example, an Archon who spends months trying to get a pure gold throne onto his boat using a make-shift ramp is just begging for some negetive levels, definitely an alignment change (when you know an undead swarm is going to rip over the continent within the next couple years!). Really happened.
Return of the Flumph 11-08-06, 09:22 PM	Two words: con drain.