Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wolf_Boy 04-22-06, 10:24 AM	Before you just disregaurd the idea straight out, listen for a second. There's actually quite a bit of ground this kind of book can cover. 1st off the obvious, there aren't enough animals represented and converted into D&D, a very large section of the book would be like a monstrous manual, and would probably include a compilation of all the animal made so far. 2nd we could have a section on creature ecology and environments. As well as some suggestions on how to properly portray an animal, especially in terms of spells such as speak with animals. 3rd we could have a section expanding the lists of familiars and animal companions (or perhaps adding a section to an animals stats stating its viability as an animal companion/familiar (improved animal familiars included) 4th we could compile and add a list of animal tricks. As well as appropriate feats involving dealing with animals, animal companions, mounts and familiars as well as feats appropriate for these critters. 5th we could add in some more prestige classes more oriented at dealing with animals as well as perhaps a base class where unlike ranger and druid, the companions and working with them is a main focus. 6th rules to help determine the cohort level of an awakened animal and perhaps rules on playing them as well. 7th I know we are all sick of spells, but as almost every book has some, spells aimed at dealing with animal companions, mounts and familiars 8th Magic items for our furry little friends 9th Maybe add in some flavor about the role animals play in the lives of many races and cultures in D&D 10th: A compiled and expanded list of gear for dealing with animals, as well as a compiled and expanded list of animals and their worth. 11th: And if this is not enough, MAYBE some info on magical beasts as well, however, not so much so that it detracts too greatly from the main focus.
JulesCARV 04-22-06, 10:32 AM	Hmm... I also wonder how animal intelligence might be handled. All of the variation in intelligence of animals in D&D is handled by just one of three statistics: no intelligence, 1 intelligence, or 2 intelligence. I wonder how this issue would be handled for those who want more detailed animal statistics.
Wolf_Boy 04-22-06, 10:37 AM	Hmm... I also wonder how animal intelligence might be handled. All of the variation in intelligence of animals in D&D is handled by just one of three statistics: no intelligence, 1 intelligence, or 2 intelligence. I wonder how this issue would be handled for those who want more detailed animal statistics. I agree that should be expanded as well. 1 and 2 int does not represent animals very well. It's not enough variation. A dog is sufficiantly smarter than a squirrel and can certainly learn more tricks, and understand more and a dolphin is likewise more intelligent than a dog.
Izodor_Shadowcaster 04-22-06, 10:46 AM	I think that is a great idea, maybe somthing called Complete Animal or something?
Antinua 04-22-06, 10:54 AM	It's true that some animals like dogs and dolphins are smarter than other and can be trained, but they still act on instinct. A dog learns tricks because he knows he gets rewarded as is how they train dolphins, by using rewards which in turn helps them survive.
Wolf_Boy 04-22-06, 11:01 AM	It's true that some animals like dogs and dolphins are smarter than other and can be trained, but they still act on instinct. A dog learns tricks because he knows he gets rewarded as is how they train dolphins, by using rewards which in turn helps them survive. Actually much of this is debateable, but that's neither here or there and I don't believe this is the right place for a scientific debate. It is debateale many animals are complex enough that they do in fact use complex reasoning, are very advanced socially, and can even come up with plans, as well as use tools and solve problems. Dolphins are just one of many species this ability is attributed too, as are many primates. Animals may not be as advanced mentally as we are, but it does not mean they run purely on instinct either. It is not a jump from point A - B, but from A - Z with humans being the supposed peak intelligence and animals falling on various points inbetween.
Majorafire77 04-22-06, 11:07 AM	I think that is a great idea, maybe somthing called Complete Animal or something? This book falls under the monsters category (Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, LoM), not the complete one (Complete Divine, Complete Psionic, etc).
Wolf_Boy 04-22-06, 11:10 AM	This book falls under the monsters category (Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, LoM), not the complete one (Complete Divine, Complete Psionic, etc). It could also be part a new series based on Companions and Cohorts as a focal point
Izodor_Shadowcaster 04-22-06, 11:18 AM	Masters of the Wilderness, might be a nice name.
Majorafire77 04-22-06, 11:39 AM	It could also be part a new series based on Companions and Cohorts as a focal point That'd be really sweet but I think that it'd screw over members of classes that don't get special companions/cohorts (fighter, monk, etc...)
Aeolius 04-22-06, 11:46 AM	Such a book would be useful for the all-animal campaign I'm working on. Nature of the Beast (http://www.lobi.com/nob/)
Wolf_Boy 04-22-06, 12:04 PM	That'd be really sweet but I think that it'd screw over members of classes that don't get special companions/cohorts (fighter, monk, etc...) There's always the leadership feat, also, such a book would obviously provide feats that would allow a fighter to say, increase his bond with a mount he might possess. There'd be ways to make it incorporate most classes. Sure not every class would benefit, but then again, not every class always does. Plus not every animal feat only applies companions, fighters do have handle animal.
Elven Doritos 04-22-06, 12:49 PM	Masters of the Wilderness, might be a nice name. Too close to the 3e splatbook about Rangers, Druids, and Barbarians called "Masters of the Wild".
SilvercatMoonpaw 04-22-06, 12:54 PM	I like your proposal, but unfortunately D&D give animals the short end of the monster stick. For one thing animals usually don't have very interesting abilities that set them apart from other monsters. You are much more likely to get a book about Magical Beasts from this rather than on animals. Another thing is that D&D assumes that races make use of animals almost as if they (the races) were human: mounts, food, guards, etc. We don't need a book to tell us that, and unless you're talking about weird magical environments we don't need a D&D book to find out what animals are like in habitats. Here's what I think should go in, directly contrasting to your proposal: 1st: Instead of a compilation of animals give us design notes on how to convert the real-life abilities of animals into statistics. What kind of bonus to jump checks should a kangaroo get, and what sort of damage should its kick do? Things like that. Vermin should be included in these notes, too, because they're really just larger versions of their animal selves. And some notes on creating swarms. 2nd: Like I said, unless it's something weird we don't need an ecology section. Any info on what talking to animals is like could probably fit into the "Playing an Animal" section. 3rd: A listing of familiars and animal companions would be okay, but I'd much rather have notes on how to determine that for yourself. Not just a "Compare it to the others and see if it's better or worse" but some sort of system where weapons, abiltiy scores, etc. get a number that when you add it up shows where it stands in relation to the others. 4th: Skills and Feats for working with animals and playing animals. I think that Animal Empathy should be a skill again, and one that can be at least cross-classed if not given as a class skill in a feat. I think it's a shame that the wild-savy barbarian can't learn to influence the attitudes of animals. 5th: Prestige classes. Yes. 6th: "Playing an Animal", with rules that deal with things like weapons and armor, as well as times when adventuring may be difficult for certain types of animals. I can't understand why some people find the idea of playing an animal to be stupid. Myth and literature is full of smart animals who play important roles. I think this section should have the anthropomorphic template from Savage Species, though. For those people who want to play something animal-like but are not yet ready for the challenges of a real animal. And again, anthropomorphs appear many times in myth. 7th: Spells. Yes. 8th: Magic items for animals. Yes. 9th: You can make up your own culture stuff. We don't need this section. 10th: Animal gear prices and animal prices. Yes. 11th: We might not need a Magical Beast section.
Mirikon 04-22-06, 12:56 PM	You can always use more animals. Also, I'd like prices on some of these animals, to know how much it would cost to have one as a pet, or as a mount. not the price of young or training, just how much it would cost to get a pre-trained mount, like the cost of a heavy warhorse. I've been wanting to play someone who had a Smilidon mount for a while. :)
Arivia 04-22-06, 01:55 PM	Too close to the 3e splatbook about Rangers, Druids, and Barbarians called "Masters of the Wild". I think that was the joke, as a lot of this was actually covered in Masters of the Wild.
Legendarius 04-22-06, 10:50 PM	One thing I might find interesting is something that deals with the ecological impact of having magical beasts, dragons and the like hanging about. It's pretty safe to assume that in general the humanoids/monstrous humanoids/giants deal with nature as a resource in much the same way humans do. As was noted before, they'd use animals as mounts, food, companions, pets, familiars, etc. But in some ways, the magical beasts are "natural" for the D&D world, their just a different kind of animal, maybe smarter with fancier powers but otherwise they hunt the other animals or are hunted by them, compete for resources, etc. How might real world creatures adapt their behavior, habitat, etc. in the face of non-real world competition including giant, dire and/or prehistoric relatives on the evolutionary tree? And what about the poor plants and trees? How come they don't get a book too? :-) Seriously, plants lead to herbs, medicines, exotic foods/spices, construction materials, etc. Fantasy Ecosystem - a toolkit for developing fun, logical environments for your game world that take into account the existance of imaginary species, unusual geographies and magical energies. L P.S. As witnessed in Chronicles of Narnia, there you have a world with awakened/anthropromorphic animals. A book that helps develop campaigns along those lines might be an interesting read.
Brastan 04-23-06, 07:26 PM	Right, added that to my list of Monster Books I'd like to see instead of more Dragons, Undead, and Fiends. That would be in no particular order; Fay, Constructs, Magical Beasts, Animals, and Plants. I could see perhaps lumping Fay, Animals, and Plants into one book if they can't fill a book with each content separately. Likewise with Constructs, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids.
SilvercatMoonpaw 04-23-06, 09:23 PM	Right, added that to my list of Monster Books I'd like to see instead of more Dragons, Undead, and Fiends. That would be in no particular order; Fay, Constructs, Magical Beasts, Animals, and Plants. I could see perhaps lumping Fay, Animals, and Plants into one book if they can't fill a book with each content separately. Likewise with Constructs, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids. I don't think Constructs should be in with Monstrous Humanoids and Magical Beasts. Here are the combos that I think would work (if we have to have combos): Animals, Vermin, Magical Beasts Animals, Vermin Magical Beasts, Plants, Fey Magical Beasts, Fey Fey, Plants Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Fey Fey, Monstrous Humanoids Constructs should either be in their own book or in a book about magical items.
JiCi 04-24-06, 12:17 PM	Before you just disregaurd the idea straight out, listen for a second. There's actually quite a bit of ground this kind of book can cover. 1st off the obvious, there aren't enough animals represented and converted into D&D, a very large section of the book would be like a monstrous manual, and would probably include a compilation of all the animal made so far. 2nd we could have a section on creature ecology and environments. As well as some suggestions on how to properly portray an animal, especially in terms of spells such as speak with animals. 3rd we could have a section expanding the lists of familiars and animal companions (or perhaps adding a section to an animals stats stating its viability as an animal companion/familiar (improved animal familiars included) 4th we could compile and add a list of animal tricks. As well as appropriate feats involving dealing with animals, animal companions, mounts and familiars as well as feats appropriate for these critters. 5th we could add in some more prestige classes more oriented at dealing with animals as well as perhaps a base class where unlike ranger and druid, the companions and working with them is a main focus. 6th rules to help determine the cohort level of an awakened animal and perhaps rules on playing them as well. 7th I know we are all sick of spells, but as almost every book has some, spells aimed at dealing with animal companions, mounts and familiars 8th Magic items for our furry little friends 9th Maybe add in some flavor about the role animals play in the lives of many races and cultures in D&D 10th: A compiled and expanded list of gear for dealing with animals, as well as a compiled and expanded list of animals and their worth. 11th: And if this is not enough, MAYBE some info on magical beasts as well, however, not so much so that it detracts too greatly from the main focus.Although this is a good idea, you got the order messed-up. Here's what I have in mind, in terms of order, based on the 3 creature-specific books. 1st: Ecology 2nd: Interaction with D&D: racial relations, uses, religious beliefs, rituals, etc 3rd: Animalistic playable races: awakened and/or anthropomorphic animals, lycanthropes 4th: Class adaptation & Prestige classes: substitution levels, such as heavily-mounted focused fighter, nature-bonded sorcerer and even plant-charming bard 5th: Skills adaptation & feats: new uses for existing skills as well as new tricks, and new feats, such as a feat that grants an animal companion, by contrast of a familiar or psicrystal. 6th: Equipment: bardings, claw extenders, saddles, etc... 7th: Spells: Dire Transformation, Stampede, Energized Fang, etc... 7th I know we are all sick of spells, but as almost every book has some, spells aimed at dealing with animal companions, mounts and familiarsDude, are you kidding me ? You can get some serious butt-kicking spells with animals, like transforming an animal into a dire version, summoning a stampede and enhancing the animal's combat abilities. 8th: Magic items: Bonus tricks granting items, embedded armor stone, etc... 9th: Monsters: not just standard animals, but more dire ones, legendary ones, dinosaurs and totally new animals like the dragonhawk from Eberron. This section could also contain a few magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, fey and templates, just like the other books. A beast golem, the planar golem keyed to the Wilderness of the Beastlands, could be a nice addition. (2 planar golems are described in the MMIII) 10th: Appendix 1: it could be sample awakened animals, templated creatures, lairs mapping, etc... Much like the sample dragons for each 12 age categories in the Draconomicon and sample ghosts, skeletons, vampires and zombies in Libris Mortis. 11th: Appendix 2: encounter tables. That says it all.
pileobone 04-24-06, 12:49 PM	I think this is pretty good idea actually. Instead of the innumerable splat books that seem to provide little else but character buffs, a book like this could be an excellent tool to really flesh out a campaign setting. Little details like abundant animal life in forrests with real stats could add a new level of believeability to a game. I would definately buy a book like this.
savant_warlord13 04-24-06, 01:01 PM	It's true that some animals like dogs and dolphins are smarter than other and can be trained, but they still act on instinct. A dog learns tricks because he knows he gets rewarded as is how they train dolphins, by using rewards which in turn helps them survive. So what if it is instinct? When a mother sacrifices herself to push her child out from in front of a speeding bus, she is acting on instinct. Besides, how many kindergarteners do you know that would learn the alphabet if they weren't going to be rewarded with those shiny gold stars or candy? I'm going to college because it will help me survive, so I must have an intelligence score of 1 or 2!
BrotherDog 04-24-06, 05:13 PM	These are all very good ideas, I'd get and support such a book, even with my limited income. How ever I'd like to add the idea of a chapter on reincarnated PCs as animals and/or awakened animal PCs. :D :D :D
Wolf_Boy 04-27-06, 10:29 AM	I personally find it sad how animals seem to often get the short end of the stick in D&D despite that they should play a very vital part in any D&D world like they do in the real world.
JiCi 04-27-06, 10:46 AM	I think someone else beat us to it guys: http://www.betabunny.com/default.htm Although we can still try to convince WotC to make an official book.
Vestigial_Thumb 04-27-06, 03:29 PM	It's true that some animals like dogs and dolphins are smarter than other and can be trained, but they still act on instinct. A dog learns tricks because he knows he gets rewarded as is how they train dolphins, by using rewards which in turn helps them survive. As Wolf_Boy pointed out, some animals show a certain level of intellect. They're still more or less unreasonable (being afraid of vacuum cleaners and all). Now this is what bugs me: So what if it is instinct? When a mother sacrifices herself to push her child out from in front of a speeding bus, she is acting on instinct. Yes that's true. Besides, how many kindergarteners do you know that would learn the alphabet if they weren't going to be rewarded with those shiny gold stars or candy? Not many. I'm going to college because it will help me survive, so I must have an intelligence score of 1 or 2! Judging by your talent for reason and logic you do have about 2 Intelligence. Antinua said that animals act on instinct. Then you take that argument, twist it into an example of you going to college, and then claiming you have animal intelligence because you want to survive. Humans act on instinct, but that's not the only thing they act on, smartass.
savant_warlord13 04-27-06, 04:06 PM	Judging by your talent for reason and logic you do have about 2 Intelligence. Antinua said that animals act on instinct. Then you take that argument, twist it into an example of you going to college, and then claiming you have animal intelligence because you want to survive. Humans act on instinct, but that's not the only thing they act on, smartass. The point is, just because something assists you with survival doesn't make it instinctive, and just because you follow instincts doesn't make you incapable of reasoning. Besides, the very fact that animals can learn is evidence that they do not act only on instinct, as instinct is, by definition, something that is not learned.
Vestigial_Thumb 04-27-06, 04:40 PM	The point is, just because something assists you with survival doesn't make it instinctive, and just because you follow instincts doesn't make you incapable of reasoning. Besides, the very fact that animals can learn is evidence that they do not act only on instinct, as instinct is, by definition, something that is not learned. This is the beauty of clever arguments :): Antinua made (whether intentionally or not) a broad statement: He said that animals act on instincts, not that animals only act on instincts.
mattdm 04-27-06, 08:18 PM	I just came across this, and remembered this thread.... The Bestiary (http://www.betabunny.com/) from Betabunny Publishing. It's a three-volume series covering real-world creatures, with Vol 1: Predators out now, Vol 2: Prey due Spring 2006, and Vol 3: Stinging Creatures and Other Natural Hazards. Looks like exactly what you might want, and this seems like exactly the kind of niche that a third-party product can fill well. (Note -- I have no idea how good it is or anything.)