Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Silverwave 06-16-04, 02:28 PM	Yesterday I was writing down my next adventure and I wanted to create a new creature. I remembered that the mountains where the PCs will venture is full of trolls so I wanted to suprise them with a new kind of troll (since they are lvl 8, lvl 5 trolls are not that dangerous, unless in groups and prepared). So I picked up the Troll race and wanted to modify it... I didn't wanted to add class levels so I just browse my books and found a template : Creature of Legend. I looked for the features and then I smiled with an evil grin. The Black Troll was born. The Creature of Legend gives the creature some bonus on his stats (+10 str & con, +6 dex, and +2 sag, cha, int), +3 on saves and turn HD to d8 if were not better. But what makes me laught is that you can pick up 2 special qualities and one on them is : Immunities : pick 2 of : fire, acid, electricity. and another : Magic Resistance 10 + ½ HD. So you got a stronger troll that is magic resistant and immune to the only two elements that can harm him : fire and acid. So i'm still thinking about how could a 8th lvl party kill that beast that only have a CR of 7. :D
JoshRodriguez 06-16-04, 02:36 PM	So i'm still thinking about how could a 8th lvl party kill that beast that only have a CR of 7. By hitting it until it runs out of HP. Sure, it's stronger and immune to fire and acid (a nasty surprise to be sure), but it's not immune to being slashed, pierced, lightning-bolted, backstabbed and bludgeoned into a reeking pile of scorched jelly.
karthos 06-16-04, 02:47 PM	Yeah, but the problem is there is no way to CdG it, because nothing can penetrate its regeneration. You would have to cut it up and lock it in small boxes or something. A wounding weapon might work as well, though you would have to drop it's con to 0 to actually kill it.
olshanski_home 06-16-04, 02:50 PM	green slime, starvation, drowning.
karthos 06-16-04, 03:04 PM	I don't generally carry much green slime with me, they are in the mountains so probably not alot of bodies of water to drown in, and starvation takes along time and is cruel (i.e. evil).
ieattrollsforbreakfast 06-16-04, 03:08 PM	The troll of legend has been discussed before, but a number of problems arise. The first is that you cant apply the Monster of Legend to a giant, but a simple rule 0 removes that problem. The second is that I seem to remeber that a monster that gains immunity to the elements that bypass its regeneration has its regeneration reverted to fast healing. I dont remeber where the ruling was found, its not in the regeneration description in the MM.
Razorcake 06-16-04, 03:24 PM	Even so, you can still coup de grace the troll. An axe head in the brains is an axe head in the brains after all.
JoshRodriguez 06-16-04, 03:52 PM	Exactly. And once brought down to 0 hp, it's dead. End of story.
was_fired 06-16-04, 04:38 PM	As pointed out just removing its head works just fine once you knock it out. It dies from suffocation since there is nothing to get air to the brain or body. If you don't believe in that then you just finely dice its body cast rock to mud on the moutine. Stick its pieces in it and cast mud to stone. There if suffocates again. Or you could stick it in a bag of holding. It will suffocate. It could break a hole in it but this causes its death as well (well it cases it to be lost forever).
Silverwave 06-16-04, 05:17 PM	You can't kill a troll with a coup de grâce unless the coup de grâce is made with a lethal form of damage... and the black troll don't have one :P. On normal troll, you can slice it to 0 hp (non-lethal) so it turns uncounscious and then make a coup de grâce with a melf's acid arrow or burn it to ashes on a barbecue :rolleyes: . Even from suffocation... well ok I understand you point but cutting it's head won't prevent from breathing. It still have a trachea to breath and ... it's just dont have "the look" :P I mean, in fantasy novels or movies you've seen, heroes just don't kill unbeatable creatures throwing a stopper in is mouth and making it suffocate... that's... a ugly kill, not an heroic one. :P But other way of suffocation should work (drowning or stone to mud / mud to stone, etc). Also, but not available to 8th lvl characters, desintagrate spells works fine.
Gez 06-16-04, 07:32 PM	No living monster is "dead, end of story" at 0 hp. 0 hp just don't means death. Non-living creatures (undead, constructs, and deathless from BOED) are destroyed at 0 hp, but that's all. You can still kill your black troll with the aforementionned drowning or starvation, you can choke it to induce suffocation, you can damage its Constitution score until it reaches 0, you can bestow it a number of negative levels equal to its HD total, you can petrify it, you use a send it to a random plane where it won't bother you... Hey, maybe a simple heart attack from a phantasmal killer might be enough. Sure, the troll's resistant to magic -- but that's not an immunity, just a spell resistance. He has good saves, but still can fail.
Gez 06-16-04, 07:37 PM	Speaking of beating SR, I'm fond of the good old combo transmute rock to mud, suggestion: touch your toes, dispel magic.
SirGog 06-16-04, 09:04 PM	As a DM, I always allow a Coup De Grace to kill any creature with -10 or lower hp, regardless of regeneration. Avoids stupid timewasting when players CDG the same monster 50-100 times to make sure it stays down for an hour while they find a river to drown it in. If you cut off a troll's head, separate the parts, sever each of its limbs, and smash the head into 6 pieces, that troll shouldn't be coming back...
Silverwave 06-16-04, 11:28 PM	Gez, stone to mud can't be dispeled it's duration is permanent. but we're getting far from the subject lol. but you're right, phantasmal killer should work fine... exept that troll's have a freaking high fortitude save, especially that one. Well, in another hand... why should they have to kill it? Since they can't petrify, desintagrate or drown him, they can just incapacitate him (hp -1 or less, str 0, whatsoever) burrow him under some large boulders and just get the hell out of the way before he get's out. Maybe it will become some cool "persistent monster" who will follow them again and again and try to take them down (kinda frenzy monster lol) until they be 9th (and being able to cast 5th lvl spell that will get rid of him). :D
WarDragon 06-16-04, 11:33 PM	Originally posted by SirGog As a DM, I always allow a Coup De Grace to kill any creature with -10 or lower hp, regardless of regeneration. Avoids stupid timewasting when players CDG the same monster 50-100 times to make sure it stays down for an hour while they find a river to drown it in. If you cut off a troll's head, separate the parts, sever each of its limbs, and smash the head into 6 pieces, that troll shouldn't be coming back... That's an excellent house rule, but the second suggestion won't work; each piece would grow into a new Troll (or was that dropped with 2e?).
Riznar 06-16-04, 11:52 PM	You can't bring a regenerating creature to -10 unless you're using something that does real damage to it. As is you just send its non-lethal damage into the stratosphere... This is why the terrasque is so hard to kill
Ashrem 06-17-04, 12:42 AM	I go for Troll's regenerating from almost anything. With one exception when one of the players found a troll's nose on the ground and wanted to grow it into his own pet troll.
Janfar 06-17-04, 02:25 AM	Silverwave, you sound like the kind of DM that sees DnD as a contest between yourself and the players. Like one of those DMs who says "Haha! I'm going to pit the tarrasque against their 1st level characters! I'd like to see them kill that!" This troll is a joke. As fun as it is to think of ingenous ways to kill it, sending it against the party would be laughable. They would just subdual it into the oblivion and then bury it. I was going to say that it should be higher than a CR 7, but when you think about it, once subdualing it into the oblivion...there are a number of solutions. Although cuz of its SR and immunities, it should probably be higher than a CR 7.
icemanjmw 06-17-04, 07:44 AM	Yeah I think the Troll would be best used as Silverwave suggested, as a recurring monster for a couple levels, until the PCs find a way to get rid of it for good. It woudl actually be interesting since they'd have to find a way to incapacitate it since they can't kill it. Perhaps a convient pile of boulders that can be pushed on top of it, then it will take a while to dig it's way out. Also, has anyone else heard of the rule about creatures changing from regen to fast healing, like ieattrollsforbreakfast mentioned? Just curious as I have not read as many supplements as some of you, and I'd like to see what else pertains to regeneration.
JoshRodriguez 06-17-04, 09:31 AM	Wow. It looks like I didn't understand how regen works in 3.5. Unless it's resistances downgrade it to fast healing, then this creature shouldn't be given a CR lower than the minimum level of character who can defeat it. Since that requires a fairly high-level spell, then it's not a CR 7 creature. I am pretty sure that ieattrollsforbreakfast is right about the regen/fast healing bit, though. I've read that somewhere before, but can't remember where. I'll scour my library when I get home and see if I can post where it was.
headlessfriar 06-17-04, 09:42 AM	Originally posted by WarDragon That's an excellent house rule, but the second suggestion won't work; each piece would grow into a new Troll (or was that dropped with 2e?). Hey, even in 2e that never happened, the 2e books all said that if the parts can't recombine, then only the biggest one re-grows the troll, the rest die. Ye gods, I like 3e much better, but 2e wasn't THAT bad...
SoldierOfFortune187 06-17-04, 10:18 AM	Originally posted by WarDragon That's an excellent house rule, but the second suggestion won't work; each piece would grow into a new Troll (or was that dropped with 2e?). Have you or your PC's come across the limitless hordes of the Troll, who each day have severed their ten fingers and toes to grow twenty new trolls apiece?
Adrez Nesnsid 06-17-04, 11:15 AM	Originally posted by karthos Yeah, but the problem is there is no way to CdG it, because nothing can penetrate its regeneration. You would have to cut it up and lock it in small boxes or something. A wounding weapon might work as well, though you would have to drop it's con to 0 to actually kill it. You could use a 'death' effect on it.
ruleslawyer 06-17-04, 12:57 PM	Originally posted by Silverwave Gez, stone to mud can't be dispeled it's duration is permanent. Spells with a duration of "permanent" can be dispelled. It's spells with a duration of "instantaneous" that can't. Death effects will work fine; so will drowning, suffocation, ability damage/drain, or energy drain. Of course, these are all HARD to administer...
WarDragon 06-17-04, 10:40 PM	Originally posted by SoldierOfFortune187 Have you or your PC's come across the limitless hordes of the Troll, who each day have severed their ten fingers and toes to grow twenty new trolls apiece? Hmm, now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure I saw that in a novel, rather than a rulebook. My bad. And to be honest, I've never actually been able to find a D&D group, so my knowledge of the rules is purely non-practical.
Arakano 06-18-04, 04:16 AM	Well, don´t be offended, but I think this discussion is unnecessary. One DM thought he had the ultimate monster, but overlooked that "monster of legend" does not apply to giants. That´s all. If you change that by a houserule, you should not be surprised if the results are ridiculous. Btw, I think the "monster of legend" should have a far higher CR than "base creature +2". The attribute boni alone are awesome.
Gez 06-18-04, 05:14 AM	Originally posted by Silverwave Gez, stone to mud can't be dispeled it's duration is permanent. You can only dispel a spell that is active at the time dispel magic is cast, so a permanent spell just means that it can be dispelled now, three days later, or by a new sentient lifeform that will appear 497 eons and 6735 years later. Instantaneous spells can't be dispelled, the magic arrives and fade instantly, after having performed the required effect. With permanent spells, on the other hand, the magic stays permanently to sustain the effect, and if that magic is dispelled, the effect is undone.
Walter Russ 06-18-04, 09:18 AM	Fire is not one of the immunity choices in the Monster of Legend Template. The choices are Acid, Electricity, Fear, Poison, Polymorphing, and Mind-Affecting effects. However, the Fire subtype is another Special Quality choice. That said, the above posts are correct, the Template is only for Animal, Magical Beast and Monstrous Humanoid, not Giant. If you want to go ahead and use the template on a Troll anyways, you can't automatically assume the CR adjustment is adequate.
Incensius 06-18-04, 10:28 AM	Even if the rule against using monster of legend on a giant didn't exist, i would still have to say that WoTC as well as any good DnD player/DM wouldn't even consider using or fighting a monster that was "unbeatable" Since there's no such thing, why try to create one? Everything has a soft spot, a little something that will eventually be used by the goody two shoes against it in a destructive manner. What i would suggest is to create a creature that is indeed tough, and its weakness is harder to find. When your characters find a pyrohydra, they'll soon start casting cone of cold on it and drawing out their +2 frost weapons. But when they're facing the simple rakshasa (which isn't actually that simple come to think of it :) ), they'll have to roll pretty high on knowledge to find out bout their vulnerability to blessed crossbow bolts. So anyway, like i said, you need to create a monster that won't be easy to defeat, but not impossible.
moosekickedmysisterstoof 06-23-04, 11:43 AM	Originally posted by karthos ...and starvation takes along time and is cruel (i.e. evil). Also, I've heard that in situations where food is scarce, trolls will tear off and eat their own limbs (since they just regenerate the lost members) for sustenance. If you wanted to starve the troll, you would have to find a way to tie it up and try to find a way to make sure that it can't eat its own tongue.
Myrridin 06-23-04, 12:10 PM	Wouldn't hitting the creature with Enervation spells until it had as many negative levels as it does HD finish the thing off? 8th level party has 4th level spells, so it could be done.
Strange Charm 06-23-04, 02:45 PM	With enervation, your "black troll" could concievably be killed in two rounds. Caster Level checks are CL + 1d20. For an 8th-level caster, that's a result of 9-28. The troll has SR 13; it would be affected 80% of the time. Enervation has no save; it bestows 1d4 negative levels on its target. The troll has 6 HD. Conclusion: Two castings of enervation by an 8th-level wizard will kill a black troll 30% of the time. Barring enervation, once your PC's figure out that the thing is immune to damage, they will likely retreat, regroup, rethink, and come up with a plan to kill your precious black troll in five rounds or less! :D Give it a couple class levels, just to be fair.
Shifting Master 06-23-04, 04:55 PM	Actually, the 30% statistic is incorrect. I figured this out when the likelihood of defeating the black troll sloped down with this method after the third round :confused:. So I tried a different method that recognized 0 as one of five possibilities (lucky coincedence that the SR is what it is...it made the problem much simpler). 20% of the time it fails (0), 20% of the time it bestows 1 negative level (1), 20% of the time it bestows 2 negative levels (2), etc. I discovered that an 8th-level caster [without any abilities or feats to increase their effective CL] has a 24% chance of slaying a black troll in 2 rounds with enervation. Additionally, in 3 rounds there is a 52.8% chance of slaying the black troll. In 4 rounds, there is an 80.48% chance of slaying the black troll. In 5 rounds...I have no idea :D.
Silverwave 06-24-04, 12:30 PM	Originally posted by Walter Russ Fire is not one of the immunity choices in the Monster of Legend Template. The choices are Acid, Electricity, Fear, Poison, Polymorphing, and Mind-Affecting effects. However, the Fire subtype is another Special Quality choice. That said, the above posts are correct, the Template is only for Animal, Magical Beast and Monstrous Humanoid, not Giant. If you want to go ahead and use the template on a Troll anyways, you can't automatically assume the CR adjustment is adequate. Doh! I've just re-readed and you're right. I already know about the "giant" subtype but I just overcome it. I could just modify the Troll's stats to make a harder opponent but I didn't want to go the long way so I deceided just to pick up a template, even if it shouln't applies. I've always Rule 0 my games... every good DM will tell you that they Rule 0, that's normal. The rule book isn't a Dictionnary, that's only a...hum... like a Bible lol. That says what you should do, but you're not forced to. The Holy PhB, hehe sounds funny. About the Fire Immunity... well, I could go for Fire Subtype or just Rule 0 it or the creature will loose his fun... that only be a Troll immune to acid and with hightened stats. Oh and has someone said : Silverwave, you sound like the kind of DM that sees DnD as a contest between yourself and the players. You're awfully wrong. I don't play against players! I just want them (and myself of course) to have fun and I just wanted a challendge for them. I want to test their creativity... not only their stats. Stats are for the character, wits comes from the player, that's what I want to play with. Anyway, even if the creature's almost unkillable, it's not too dangerous for the players. Geez, when he drops down below 0 hp, he goes uncounscious (hum... I could take a feat for him : Die Hard :angel: . Just kidding :P) and players are safe until some minutes. They will soon see that the creature constantly come back and they'll have to find a way. That's the interesting part, they will try a 100 ways to get rid of him. I can't imagine they will not find a way. That's why I opened that post... not to let ppl think that I'm a stupid DM. I just wanted to know if some could find a way to get rid of it. So thx everyone who helped, for the others, well, you're just very far from what I want to do with the creature, just read again carefully.
Silverwave 06-24-04, 12:33 PM	Originally posted by Shifting Master Actually, the 30% statistic is incorrect. I figured this out when the likelihood of defeating the black troll sloped down with this method after the third round :confused:. So I tried a different method that recognized 0 as one of five possibilities (lucky coincedence that the SR is what it is...it made the problem much simpler). 20% of the time it fails (0), 20% of the time it bestows 1 negative level (1), 20% of the time it bestows 2 negative levels (2), etc. I discovered that an 8th-level caster [without any abilities or feats to increase their effective CL] has a 24% chance of slaying a black troll in 2 rounds with enervation. Additionally, in 3 rounds there is a 52.8% chance of slaying the black troll. In 4 rounds, there is an 80.48% chance of slaying the black troll. In 5 rounds...I have no idea :D. OMG... are you a Math teacher or a Business man? lol BTW, wich school Enervation is classed? Necromancy I suppose ? Anyway, i'm almost sure the mage don't have this spell. They'll probably come with in time of needs :P
DwarvinJedi 06-24-04, 01:56 PM	I don't Think multiple castings of Enervation stack
Silverwave 06-24-04, 02:19 PM	I'm not sure either... I don't think so.
Veton 06-24-04, 02:26 PM	Originally posted by DwarvinJedi I don't Think multiple castings of Enervation stack They bestow negative levels on their target, and negative levels stack.
Krelios 06-24-04, 02:33 PM	Originally posted by Veton They bestow negative levels on their target, and negative levels stack. Yep. Since Enervation actually gives negative levels, and not some sort of penalty (like Ray of Enfeeblement) they do stack and it's a killer spell.
DwarvinJedi 06-24-04, 02:41 PM	I should choose it more often then
Strange Charm 06-24-04, 09:42 PM	I apologize if I made it sound too easy to knock off the troll in two rounds. Enervation requires a touch attack to be effective. Keep in mind what this entails: Wizard's melee touch attack (1d20 + 4 + Str modifier) vs. troll's touch AC (AC 26 [-1 size, +7 Dex, +10 natural], touch 16, flat-footed 19) This means that the troll would probably need to be incapacitated first before the wizard got to it. The troll would either need to be grappled (bringing it down to AC 9) or rendered unconcious (allowing a coup-de-grace).
Silverwave 06-24-04, 10:21 PM	Nay : True Strike. Anyway, I think the party mage have Spell Penetration so the Black Troll's spell resistance should not be a big barrier (well... still he misses on a 8 or less on a d20... almost half of the time). But it's defenetly not enought CR 7 for that creature. I'll let it like this and see. The more the players will have trouble with it, the more xp it should give.
BelXiror 06-25-04, 04:31 AM	Knock it out, hang it and beat it like a pinata until it suffocates. Simple, really :p
Gez 06-25-04, 05:25 AM	Originally posted by Strange Charm (allowing a coup-de-gras). http://www.nothingland.com/images/smilies/images/24.gif http://www.nothingland.com/images/smilies/smiles/killingme.gif http://www.nothingland.com/images/smilies/smiles/lolbonk.gif http://www.nothingland.com/images/smilies/smiles/tears.gif It's coup de grâce. Meaning "merciful blow". Coup de gras means "blow of fat".
Strange Charm 06-25-04, 10:33 AM	Gez, I knew I spelled that wrong! Oh, well, I went back and edited it. Thank you. It really is refreshing to see a fellow language fiend posting instead of the typical halfling rouge.
Grynn 06-25-04, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by Strange Charm I apologize if I made it sound too easy to knock off the troll in two rounds. Enervation requires a touch attack to be effective. Keep in mind what this entails: Wizard's melee touch attack (1d20 + 4 + Str modifier) vs. troll's touch AC (AC 26 [-1 size, +7 Dex, +10 natural], touch 16, flat-footed 19) This means that the troll would probably need to be incapacitated first before the wizard got to it. The troll would either need to be grappled (bringing it down to AC 9) or rendered unconcious (allowing a coup-de-grace). Just a couple of nits to pick here. Enervation is a ranged touch attack, not a melee one. So the wizards Dex bonus is used, not Str. Most arcane spellcasters have a higher Dex than Str, so this is helpful. Also, where are you getting the troll's AC from. It would only have a +5 Dex modifier to AC, not +7. 14+6=20, which is a +5 modifier. That would give the troll a touch AC of 14. Even if the wizard didn't have a Dex bonus, he's still hitting on a roll of 10 or better, which is 55% of the time.
Silverwave 06-25-04, 06:01 PM	Originally posted by Grynn Also, where are you getting the troll's AC from. It would only have a +5 Dex modifier to AC, not +7. 14+6=20, which is a +5 modifier. That would give the troll a touch AC of 14. Even if the wizard didn't have a Dex bonus, he's still hitting on a roll of 10 or better, which is 55% of the time. The Creature of Legend gives +10 dex.
Silverwave 06-25-04, 06:02 PM	Originally posted by Strange Charm Gez, I knew I spelled that wrong! Oh, well, I went back and edited it. Thank you. It really is refreshing to see a fellow language fiend posting instead of the typical halfling rouge. I noticed the error, i'm french so it make me laught but I didn't know someone else would understand the joke :P lol Oh... and please, don't pronounce : "Couppe-dé-gracy" it's awfull :P. It's more like : "Coo-duh-grass e" (well it's difficult to write down the prononciation but... oh well, lol). That's it for the French 101 class :)
Gez 06-25-04, 07:54 PM	Coo duh grass.
Draconiss 06-25-04, 08:13 PM	Says in either players guide or dm's guide that when reduced to more than -11 subdual damage, you die. So even if you regenerate you can be killed if they hammer you into a lifeless lump of flesh. Hydras are tge ones you need to burn with acid and fire to keep them down
Silverwave 06-25-04, 08:15 PM	I think it's speficied in the Regeneration quality that you can't kill a creature with this quality with subdual damage.
diaboli 06-25-04, 09:40 PM	Originally posted by Draconiss Says in either players guide or dm's guide that when reduced to more than -11 subdual damage, you die. So even if you regenerate you can be killed if they hammer you into a lifeless lump of flesh. Hydras are tge ones you need to burn with acid and fire to keep them down Not quite true. From the SRD: Regeneration (Ex): A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage. The creature automatically heals nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the entry. Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal lethal damage to the creature, which doesn’t go away. The creature’s descriptive text describes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts; details are in the creature’s descriptive text. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally. Thus the only way this troll (if it had fire and acid immunity) would be able to receive lethal damage is starvation, thrist or suffocation. Enervation works well, also Charm Monster (would give you 7 days to get the troll somewhere near deep water for drowning). If you want to toughen the troll up simply add on the Fiendish template ; - Cold and Fire resitance 10 - DR 5/magic - SR 11 - Its claw and bite attacks are now considered magic weapons - Smite Good (via claw) +9 melee (1d6+12) + Give it a ring of Minor energy resistance (Acid) [negates first 10 points] add in a few potions of healing for healing any damage that excedes the resitances. CR: 6 This gives you a much tougher troll without going over the top, and forces the players to expend any fire/acid based spells. Cold spells are now less effective at bringing it to unconsciousness. The troll is still killable, however merely pouring a flask of acid, alchemist's fire, pouring oil on and lighting it won't work. Each of these only do 1d6 points of damage and thus would be negated by its resistance. This will force your players to either expend even more magical resources (spells, wands, etc) or come up with some way to drown, starve, or suffocate it, assuming they (the characters, not the players) realize this fact. If you really want to be really cruel, change the ring to a tongue stud. Chances are your PCs aren't going to be searching the troll's fetid mouth for such a magic item. If you wanted to bring it to a CR 7, bump up its Cha by 5 pts to an 11, and give it a level of Sorc This allows it to cast 1st level spells. 0 - Resistance, Touch of Fatigue, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights 1st - Mage Armor, Shield Now in two rounds your trolls AC goes up by +8 and magic missle is ineffective. OR you could give it the Practiced Spellcaster feat and let it apply to the trolls previous HD levels (we are talking an non-standard troll anyhow), change out Mage Armor for Shocking Grasp, and your troll is not only harder to put down, be also able to dish out a 5d6 shocking grasp spell. my .02 to the thread.