Ancient Baatorians [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ancient Baatorians [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kyle_the_DM
09-08-03, 04:50 PM ok... i'm creating a series of adventures involving the nine hells. in the MoP it mentions a race called the ancient baatorians. is there any material on the ancient baatorians or am i going to have to make this up? is so what ideas would everyone have for them or what existing monsters could i use? thanks.
hiryuu
09-08-03, 04:52 PM No one knows. It's for you to make up. Personally, the idea is too cool to be used for anything outside a campaign-ender. But that's just me.
d_nychus
09-08-03, 05:00 PM Not certain if I can mention this from CoC, but there are a few third party books that have some ingenious ideas for such beings.

Certain books by Green Ronin Publishing are really good for this concept. And Wiz0's you may delete this line if it is pushing things too much.
Kyle_the_DM
09-08-03, 05:02 PM Originally posted by d_nychus
Not certain if I can mention this from CoC, but there are a few third party books that have some ingenious ideas for such beings.

Certain books by Green Ronin Publishing are really good for this concept. And Wiz0's you may delete this line if it is pushing things too much.

email the info to me if you can beer_bong_boy@hotmail.com
JustKim
09-08-03, 05:45 PM Mentioning third party products is not against the CoC.

To the best of my knowledge the ancient Baatorians were a race of giant slug-like creatures. There was an encounter with one in a 2E adventure which I don't have and don't recall the name of, but it was apparently indestructible. Popular opinion is that the devils only rose to dominance in Baator because their numbers are infinite.
Kyle_the_DM
09-08-03, 05:53 PM that's a little helpful. thanks. if you remember the name of the 2e product you saw it in please tell me.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-08-03, 05:55 PM There's quite a bit of information out there in canon products, largely in the 2e Planescape line.

Theres currently a discussion about the Ancient Baatorians going on at the WotC Planescape boards, might want to check it out.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94142

Summary however of the ancient baatorians: The Baatezu who rule the 9 Hells of Baator do not spawn directly from the essence of Baator. Instead they arise from the corrupt petitioners/souls who migrate to that plane after death. The Ancient Baatorians however, by all hints in canon, spawn naturally from the plane, and likely predate the Baatezu as inhabitants of that plane.

The Ancient Baatorians are similar in this way to the Yugoloths, the neutral evil fiends who are native to the Grey Waste of Hades and Gehenna. Yugoloths arise spontaneously from those planes, and don't arise from mortal petitioners. They're directly tied to their planes and no evidence to suggest they're not the original fiends to inhabit those two planes. (Except for their creators, the nearly mythical Baernaloth, who, if you believe the Yugoloth, created them and then the Baatezu and Tanar'ri as well from the essence of law and chaos they removed when they purified their children the Yugoloths).

Theres a type of least Baatezu called a Nupperibo that the Baatezu slay and demote in rank whenever found, and then remold them and force them into the Baatezu heirarchy. The Nupperibo spawn directly from the essence of Baator, and if left alone to grow and evolve over hundreds to thousands of years it seems to indicate that they're immature Ancient Baatorians. Hence the Baatezu's fear and knee-jerk reactions in killing them on sight.

The Yugoloth are aware of this, and in the Planescape module, 'Tales of the Infinate Staircase' had apparently gifted a highly developed Nupperibo to a Kyton lord of Jangling Hiter in Baator. For what purpose, none can truly say. Not benevolent though most likely. This evolved Nupperibo closely resembled some of the shapes seen frozen into the ice of the glaciers of Cania, the 8th layer of Baator. (Referenced in the 3e Manual of the Planes).

Also, in the 3e Manual of the Planes, there's a cavern in Malbolge, that mentions the Ancient Baatorians. This cave was originally mentioned in the Planescape box set, Hellbound, and actually did contain a single example of one of the Ancient Baatorians. Interesting critters... and nigh impossible to so much as damage. Makes one wonder why they're no longer the dominant race of Baator, and what the 'loths have to do with it, if anything, and what connection those frozen shapes in the ice in Cania have to this all (after all, those shapes are not just Ancient Baatorians, but entire cities, and what appear to be Celestials locked in combat with the ancient fiends).
d_nychus
09-08-03, 09:04 PM Well, The products are Legions of Hell and Armies of the Abyss. There are things in those books that make the BoVD look like a gradeschool book (which....is not far from the truth anyways).

Anyways, I was just checking and I realized I got it backwards. The ancients I remember reading about were for the Abyss, a race called the Qlippoth. These are virtually the opposite of Ancient Baatorians, in that they were actually very weak physically (as compared to other fiends). They were incredibly intelligent and created masses of impossible creatures from the new races of mortals when they first found them, making early tanar'ri to serve them. However, an invasion of celestials weakened the Qlippoth's enough for the tanar'ri to turn on their masters, and virtually annihilate them. What few remain live in hidden areas of the Abyss, continually hunted by their creations.

Non-core history, I know, but the concept fits in nicely (though it was written by Erik Mona, ne of the chief writters in the FF, if that has any bearing. In fact a couple of monster in the FF look like they were based of monsters in AotA), and the books have outstanding ideas for fiends (though some of their execution is flawed in a few cases, game-wise). I highly recommend them.

Getting back to the Ancient Baatorians, the mention of 'slug-like' made me think of the Xerfilstyx from the FF. Makes me wonder if there is any relation or perhaps something of another diaolic experiment using the Ancient Baatorians. Would be kind of cool if the Xerfilstyx devils were created using an Ancient or something like that. Any thoughts?
eonblueapocalypse
09-09-03, 12:15 AM If I remember correctly some of the Lords of the Nine were ancients, of these being Moloch, Dispater, and Mephistopheles. This is how the alliances in hell began. I cant remember what it is called, but it was a period when many many celestials fell to hell and became Devils themselves. Belial, Mammon, and Bealzebul were some of the more well known of the fallen celestials. The true Devils saw these celestials as upstarts and rivals for power and have always hated them. Thus the original alliances in hell were created...or something along those lines.

Shameless Plug: As stated before the two Book of Fiends, Armies of the Abyss, and Legions of Hell are very good books and contain alot of useful, informative and, thought provoking material. Some of the game rules arnt as good as they should be, but that can be fixed by any creative DM. I will say that EVERY creature in the monsters section got me thinking about a way incorporate them into my game.
Kyle_the_DM
09-09-03, 08:16 PM ok thanks, that actually helps me out a lot. any idea were i can purchase those books?
Shemeska the Marauder
09-09-03, 08:35 PM The Planescape modules that originally introduced the Ancient Baatorians are unfortunately out of print, but you can get them on Ebay at fairly regular intervals.

Or you can get the pdfs which are on sale at svgames.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kyle_the_DM 09-08-03, 04:50 PM	ok... i'm creating a series of adventures involving the nine hells. in the MoP it mentions a race called the ancient baatorians. is there any material on the ancient baatorians or am i going to have to make this up? is so what ideas would everyone have for them or what existing monsters could i use? thanks.
hiryuu 09-08-03, 04:52 PM	No one knows. It's for you to make up. Personally, the idea is too cool to be used for anything outside a campaign-ender. But that's just me.
d_nychus 09-08-03, 05:00 PM	Not certain if I can mention this from CoC, but there are a few third party books that have some ingenious ideas for such beings. Certain books by Green Ronin Publishing are really good for this concept. And Wiz0's you may delete this line if it is pushing things too much.
Kyle_the_DM 09-08-03, 05:02 PM	Originally posted by d_nychus Not certain if I can mention this from CoC, but there are a few third party books that have some ingenious ideas for such beings. Certain books by Green Ronin Publishing are really good for this concept. And Wiz0's you may delete this line if it is pushing things too much. email the info to me if you can beer_bong_boy@hotmail.com
JustKim 09-08-03, 05:45 PM	Mentioning third party products is not against the CoC. To the best of my knowledge the ancient Baatorians were a race of giant slug-like creatures. There was an encounter with one in a 2E adventure which I don't have and don't recall the name of, but it was apparently indestructible. Popular opinion is that the devils only rose to dominance in Baator because their numbers are infinite.
Kyle_the_DM 09-08-03, 05:53 PM	that's a little helpful. thanks. if you remember the name of the 2e product you saw it in please tell me.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-08-03, 05:55 PM	There's quite a bit of information out there in canon products, largely in the 2e Planescape line. Theres currently a discussion about the Ancient Baatorians going on at the WotC Planescape boards, might want to check it out. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94142 Summary however of the ancient baatorians: The Baatezu who rule the 9 Hells of Baator do not spawn directly from the essence of Baator. Instead they arise from the corrupt petitioners/souls who migrate to that plane after death. The Ancient Baatorians however, by all hints in canon, spawn naturally from the plane, and likely predate the Baatezu as inhabitants of that plane. The Ancient Baatorians are similar in this way to the Yugoloths, the neutral evil fiends who are native to the Grey Waste of Hades and Gehenna. Yugoloths arise spontaneously from those planes, and don't arise from mortal petitioners. They're directly tied to their planes and no evidence to suggest they're not the original fiends to inhabit those two planes. (Except for their creators, the nearly mythical Baernaloth, who, if you believe the Yugoloth, created them and then the Baatezu and Tanar'ri as well from the essence of law and chaos they removed when they purified their children the Yugoloths). Theres a type of least Baatezu called a Nupperibo that the Baatezu slay and demote in rank whenever found, and then remold them and force them into the Baatezu heirarchy. The Nupperibo spawn directly from the essence of Baator, and if left alone to grow and evolve over hundreds to thousands of years it seems to indicate that they're immature Ancient Baatorians. Hence the Baatezu's fear and knee-jerk reactions in killing them on sight. The Yugoloth are aware of this, and in the Planescape module, 'Tales of the Infinate Staircase' had apparently gifted a highly developed Nupperibo to a Kyton lord of Jangling Hiter in Baator. For what purpose, none can truly say. Not benevolent though most likely. This evolved Nupperibo closely resembled some of the shapes seen frozen into the ice of the glaciers of Cania, the 8th layer of Baator. (Referenced in the 3e Manual of the Planes). Also, in the 3e Manual of the Planes, there's a cavern in Malbolge, that mentions the Ancient Baatorians. This cave was originally mentioned in the Planescape box set, Hellbound, and actually did contain a single example of one of the Ancient Baatorians. Interesting critters... and nigh impossible to so much as damage. Makes one wonder why they're no longer the dominant race of Baator, and what the 'loths have to do with it, if anything, and what connection those frozen shapes in the ice in Cania have to this all (after all, those shapes are not just Ancient Baatorians, but entire cities, and what appear to be Celestials locked in combat with the ancient fiends).
d_nychus 09-08-03, 09:04 PM	Well, The products are Legions of Hell and Armies of the Abyss. There are things in those books that make the BoVD look like a gradeschool book (which....is not far from the truth anyways). Anyways, I was just checking and I realized I got it backwards. The ancients I remember reading about were for the Abyss, a race called the Qlippoth. These are virtually the opposite of Ancient Baatorians, in that they were actually very weak physically (as compared to other fiends). They were incredibly intelligent and created masses of impossible creatures from the new races of mortals when they first found them, making early tanar'ri to serve them. However, an invasion of celestials weakened the Qlippoth's enough for the tanar'ri to turn on their masters, and virtually annihilate them. What few remain live in hidden areas of the Abyss, continually hunted by their creations. Non-core history, I know, but the concept fits in nicely (though it was written by Erik Mona, ne of the chief writters in the FF, if that has any bearing. In fact a couple of monster in the FF look like they were based of monsters in AotA), and the books have outstanding ideas for fiends (though some of their execution is flawed in a few cases, game-wise). I highly recommend them. Getting back to the Ancient Baatorians, the mention of 'slug-like' made me think of the Xerfilstyx from the FF. Makes me wonder if there is any relation or perhaps something of another diaolic experiment using the Ancient Baatorians. Would be kind of cool if the Xerfilstyx devils were created using an Ancient or something like that. Any thoughts?
eonblueapocalypse 09-09-03, 12:15 AM	If I remember correctly some of the Lords of the Nine were ancients, of these being Moloch, Dispater, and Mephistopheles. This is how the alliances in hell began. I cant remember what it is called, but it was a period when many many celestials fell to hell and became Devils themselves. Belial, Mammon, and Bealzebul were some of the more well known of the fallen celestials. The true Devils saw these celestials as upstarts and rivals for power and have always hated them. Thus the original alliances in hell were created...or something along those lines. Shameless Plug: As stated before the two Book of Fiends, Armies of the Abyss, and Legions of Hell are very good books and contain alot of useful, informative and, thought provoking material. Some of the game rules arnt as good as they should be, but that can be fixed by any creative DM. I will say that EVERY creature in the monsters section got me thinking about a way incorporate them into my game.
Kyle_the_DM 09-09-03, 08:16 PM	ok thanks, that actually helps me out a lot. any idea were i can purchase those books?
Shemeska the Marauder 09-09-03, 08:35 PM	The Planescape modules that originally introduced the Ancient Baatorians are unfortunately out of print, but you can get them on Ebay at fairly regular intervals. Or you can get the pdfs which are on sale at svgames.