Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WinterPsionic 09-18-06, 09:38 AM	Ok Now I've never seen a physical hard ruled break down of "2 Claws", example MM1 Pg175, Werewolf - Hybrind Form, Full Attack. Now here's what I've heard: 1.It's like you make a single attack called "2 claws" doing a total of 1D4+Mod 2.It's like your granted 2WF and you get 2 Attacks, one with your main hand and one with your off hand to do 1D4+Mod twice(w/o or /w the -2/-2 penalty) 3.Your basically making 2 attacks with your main hand as if you had +5/+1. So are any of these even close? As a Werewolf I took 2WF and went with Option 2 /w the penalty just so there wasn't any confusion but I'm trying to rebuild to get "Rend" in there since my DM is treating any Special Attack as a feat as long as the character is entitled to "Monstrous Feats". In some respects I still feel the Lycans as characters are kind of broken though I can't really set a finger on why...anyone else agree?
Lord Lorac Silvanos 09-18-06, 09:54 AM	Claws are natural weapons and follow the rule for those. When you are full attacking you make an attack with each natural weapon you have that are not also holding a manufactured weapon. Natural weapons do not gain iterative attacks from a high Base Attack Bonus like manufactured weapons or even an unarmed strike. You could use one of your claws to attack with a manufactured weapon using iterative attacks (if your BAB is at least +6) and still attack with the other claw and your bite attack when you are full-attacking. You can read more about it in the MM or in the SRD.
WinterPsionic 09-18-06, 11:54 AM	Claws are natural weapons and follow the rule for those. When you are full attacking you make an attack with each natural weapon you have that are not also holding a manufactured weapon. Natural weapons do not gain iterative attacks from a high Base Attack Bonus like manufactured weapons or even an unarmed strike. You could use one of your claws to attack with a manufactured weapon using iterative attacks (if your BAB is at least +6) and still attack with the other claw and your bite attack when you are full-attacking. You can read more about it in the MM or in the SRD. Ok maybe todays just a bad day for me or maybe I'm considerably more stupid then I believe myself to be...I still don't see anything on how the 2 claws is handled...MM1 Pg299 (for now let's just think about claws and forget the natural bite secondary attack)..."In general, a creature attacks once with each natural weapon it has. For most monsters, that wille be two claws and a bite(or vice versa).(Claws are primary)...for example a Treant attacks with two slwams, one for each limb, and both and primary natural weapons.... OK now by this CAN i make 2 claw attacks w/o a full attack w/o 2WF? IOW an attack of "Attack 2 Claws(1D4+Mod)"?
strenoth 09-18-06, 12:15 PM	Ok maybe todays just a bad day for me or maybe I'm considerably more stupid then I believe myself to be...I still don't see anything on how the 2 claws is handled...MM1 Pg299 (for now let's just think about claws and forget the natural bite secondary attack)..."In general, a creature attacks once with each natural weapon it has. For most monsters, that wille be two claws and a bite(or vice versa).(Claws are primary)...for example a Treant attacks with two slwams, one for each limb, and both and primary natural weapons.... OK now by this CAN i make 2 claw attacks w/o a full attack w/o 2WF? IOW an attack of "Attack 2 Claws(1D4+Mod)"? No, the claws are seperate weapons. You have 2 of them. standard attack: make a SINGLE attack, which means usign only 1 weapon. Full Attack: attack once with each weapon (claw/claw/bite if you have two claws and a bite). Primary weapons use yoru full attack bonus, secondary weapons receive a -5 penalty on attacks and only 1/2 strength bonus. Go read the dragon entry, it shows you a good example of a creature with multiple attack forms.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 09-18-06, 12:18 PM	Generally you cannot use more than one of your attacks without spending a full-round action. (the Hydra being an exception) So if you only have a standard action or are making an attack of opportunity you only use one of your claws. If you look at the monster descriptions you can see what they weapons they typically use when making a single attack under the attack line. Under the full attack line you see their whole array of attacks. You never use TWF with natural weapons, that is only for manufactured weapons. Feel free to ask any questions you might have here. Here is a few of the relevant paragraphs from the SRD. You can also find them in your MM. Attack This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action. In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well. The attack line provides the weapon used (natural or manufactured), attack bonus, and form of attack (melee or ranged). The attack bonus given includes modifications for size and Strength (for melee attacks) or Dexterity (for ranged attacks). A creature with the Weapon Finesse feat can use its Dexterity modifier on melee attacks. If the creature uses natural attacks, the natural weapon given here is the creature’s primary natural weapon. If the creature has several different weapons at its disposal, the alternatives are shown, with each different attack separated by the word “or.” A creature can use one of its secondary natural weapons when making an attack action, but if it does it takes an attack penalty, as noted in the Full Attack section below. The damage that each attack deals is noted parenthetically. Damage from an attack is always at least 1 point, even if a subtraction from a die roll reduces the result to 0 or lower. Full Attack This line shows all the physical attacks the creature makes when it uses a full-round action to make a full attack. It gives the number of attacks along with the weapon, attack bonus, and form of attack (melee or ranged). The first entry is for the creature’s primary weapon, with an attack bonus including modifications for size and Strength (for melee attacks) or Dexterity (for ranged attacks). A creature with the Weapon Finesse feat can use its Dexterity modifier on melee attacks. The remaining weapons are secondary, and attacks with them are made with a –5 penalty to the attack roll, no matter how many there are. Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks. The damage that each attack deals is noted parenthetically. Damage from an attack is always at least 1 point, even if a subtraction from a die roll reduces the result to 0 or lower. A creature’s primary attack damage includes its full Strength modifier (1-1/2 times its Strength bonus if the attack is with the creature’s sole natural weapon) and is given first. Secondary attacks add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses. If any attacks also have some special effect other than damage, that information is given here. Unless noted otherwise, creatures using natural weapons deal double damage on critical hits. Manufactured Weapons: Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters do. The bonus for attacks with two-handed weapons is 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength modifier (if it is a bonus), and is given first. Offhand weapons add only 1/2 the Strength bonus and are given second in the parentheses. Manufactured Weapons: Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature. Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon. Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions. Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20. When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity. Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below. Bite: The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage. Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage. Gore: The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage. Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage. Sting: The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage. Tentacle: The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.
WinterPsionic 09-18-06, 12:29 PM	Generally you cannot use more than one of your attacks without spending a full-round action. (the Hydra being an exception) So if you only have a standard action or are making an attack of opportunity you only use one of your claws. If you look at the monster descriptions you can see what they weapons they typically use when making a single attack under the attack line. Under the full attack line you see their whole array of attacks. You never use TWF with natural weapons, that is only for manufactured weapons. Feel free to ask any questions you might have here. My DM also mentioned an article by Mr. Williams regarding natural weapons however I have been unable to find it. Also from my interpretations and those of my DM 2WF is the only way for a character to get the extra attack after a full movement action, perhaps I am playing under more house rules then I am actively aware of but it is my understanding that after a 5 ft step you can make a full attack or after a longer movement only a normal attack unless you have 2WF in which case you get the off hand attack. Granted I am aware that 2WF was intended for "manufactured" weapons however I have not seen a monstrous feat that grants an offhand attack. Have I missed one? I still don't have MM4 but have checked MM1-3 and Savage Species, these being the only books I know of that address monstrous feats. If there are resources you know of that may help answer this please point me in the right direction as I have found nothing that helps all that much. Too spare you the trouble please feel free to reference page numbers as I have the MM1 3.5 Sitting in front of me as we type :)
Lord Lorac Silvanos 09-18-06, 01:22 PM	Even if you are using manufactured weapon and TWF you do not get to make an off-hand attack unless you spend a full-round action. Full Attack If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. This is alos in the combat section of the PHB and Skip Williams har definetely written an artile series about TWF. So either your DM has made a houserule or has misunderstood something. There is no such things as off-hand attacks for natural weapons, you simply get to make them in addition to any other attacks when full-attacking (unless you are using, say a claw, to hold a weapon).
WinterPsionic 09-18-06, 01:47 PM	Hmmm Ok so I guess I'll need to run a few scenarios and see how it plays out...I suppose I could take an "anti-feat" and get pounce...time for some more research I guess... Ultimately I just want to be able to move more then 5 feet and still be able to get a rend in...maybe I should just make a Troll character with "Pounce"...
Orchomenos 09-18-06, 01:50 PM	You can either - Take a 5' step (free action) and make a full-round attack action. An 11th level fighter with TWF, Improved TWF and Greater TWF can make 6 attacks: 3 with the main hand, 3 with the off-hand, and those with the off-hand add only half the STR to the Damage. A Dragon of size Large or larger can make 6 natural attacks: 1 bite, 2 claws, 2 wings, and 1 tail slap. A lizardfolk or half-dragon could make 3 attacks with no weapon: 2 with the claws and one with the bite. The same lizardfolk or half-dragon holding a sword could still make 3 attacks: 1 with the sword, one with the remaining claw and one with the bite. If the lizardfolk or half-dragon had a BAB of +6, he could make 4 attacks: 2 with the sword, 1 with the remaining claw, and 1 with the bite. A Marilith (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDtoDe.html#marilith-demon) can make 10 attacks as a full-round attack: 4 with the sword in the main hand, 5 with the off-hands swords, and 1 with the tail slap (a natural attack). - Move your speed, and then make an attack action (or vice-versa), which is always a single attack, even if you can have 6 attack as a full-round attack action. Even the marilith described higher could do only 1 attack as a standard action, even if she's able to make 10 attack in a full-round action. - Make a double-move, without any attack. - Use the Charge action: you move in strait line at least 10' and up to twice your speed, and then make a single attack with a +2 bonus on the attack roll and -2 malus on your AC. - Tigers and other felines have the Pounce special attack, which allow them to make a full attack action at the end of a charge. There are some feats, like Lion's Pounce (CDiv) or Catfolk's Pounce (RotW) that allow you to do the same. There's a psionic power that allow you to pounce (SRD). There might be some prestige classes that give you this ability. - Please note that there might be a feat or class ability allowing you to take a 10' step instead of the 5' step; I've seen something like that somewhere, but can't find it.
WinterPsionic 09-18-06, 04:02 PM	Ok well I'm still in the same situation...but how about this...Let's say my Lycan has: Rend, Pounce and Spring Attack... Could I: Charge 20ft, Pounce for a Full attack(Rend if the 2 claws hit) and then retreat 10ft? I have a base speed of 30 as a hybrid so this should be easily doable correct(Sorry I only have MM1 with me...can't believe I forgot my PHB)...wish I could've done a were tiger...
Lord Lorac Silvanos 09-18-06, 05:04 PM	Ok well I'm still in the same situation...but how about this...Let's say my Lycan has: Rend, Pounce and Spring Attack... Could I: Charge 20ft, Pounce for a Full attack(Rend if the 2 claws hit) and then retreat 10ft? I have a base speed of 30 as a hybrid so this should be easily doable correct(Sorry I only have MM1 with me...can't believe I forgot my PHB)...wish I could've done a were tiger... I am sorry, but you cannot use Spring Attack with a charge :( Charging is a special full-round action and Spring Attack only works with the attack action (say you are making a single claw attack). SPRING ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.
WinterPsionic 09-18-06, 05:18 PM	I am sorry, but you cannot use Spring Attack with a charge :( Charging is a special full-round action and Spring Attack only works with the attack action (say you are making a single claw attack). Hmmmm well I guess there really is no way to do what I want to do....unless I do a Sudden Jump backwards....would that work if I could jump as a Swift action after a Charge/Attack/Rend?
Lord Lorac Silvanos 09-18-06, 05:41 PM	Possibly :D
WinterPsionic 09-18-06, 05:50 PM	Possibly :D AHA so I may have found what I need to do my Rip and Run technique :) Ohh Happy Days:cool:
Lord Lorac Silvanos 09-18-06, 05:57 PM	How do you plan to make a jump back as a swift action?
WinterPsionic 09-18-06, 06:02 PM	How do you plan to make a jump back as a swift action? As a WarBlade I have the Sudden Leap Technique from the Tiger Claw style(House rule allows Natural Claws to count as Unarmed Strikes). The exact descriptor is: "Sudden Leap: Boost - Jump as a swift action." The actual Tiger claw section stretches it out some but I can leap back and try to tumble to avoid any AoO.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 09-18-06, 06:06 PM	Good luck with it :cool:
WinterPsionic 09-18-06, 06:07 PM	Finally a technique to call my own HAHA HAHAHAHA MWAHAHAHAHAHA *hack, cough, weeze*...ugh my throat....