"Gestalt" as a template ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Gestalt" as a template ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JiCi
01-24-07, 05:02 PM Gestalt characters are PCs that level up with 2 classes simutaneously, gaining all the good stuff from both classes.

However, if you play a gestalt character, most of the major enemies are gestalt characters, and you cannot play a gestalt PC unless the other PCs are gestalt characters too.

So I thought of something: what if we could transform a gestalt into a template, resulting with creatures with a highly-developped mentality.

Something with:

Special qualities:
Dual leveling: a gestalt creature can choose 2 classes to level up at the same time.

CR: ??

LA: ??

... and this it where I block, what would be a suitable CR and LA ? Any ideas ?

Thanks in advance,

JiCi
Armoracia Rusticana
01-24-07, 05:45 PM CR +1 to 2
LA +2, as most folks think

But why use that as template?
JiCi
01-24-07, 05:57 PM Mostly to use the gestalt rule is ANY kind of game, which can be done by increasing the CR and LA, yet I don't know how much.
Johnny_Angel
01-24-07, 06:31 PM I don't think it would really be possible to effectively balance a gestalt creature against creatures which aren't gestalt.

I'm not sure that I really see the point of it either. I'm not saying it is a bad idea; it's just an idea that I don't understand. If you want a monster to have 2 classes, why not just give them two classes? The reason I say that is because the CR would be pretty close to being the same thing; the only difference is that the creature wouldn't have as many hit dice.

I suppose that the CR would increase by 1.5 for every gestalt level taken.

As for a level adjustment, I'm not sure how that would work because the adjustment would change depending on how many gestalt levels you had - which would constantly change as you went up in levels.
WinterPsionic
01-24-07, 06:33 PM ....the template doesn't do anything for balance...a Gestalt NPC/Monster would already have an elevated CR/LA based on their creature type...
Witch
01-24-07, 06:34 PM I'd make it a +3 - it might be somewhat too high, but:
Consider the Mystic Theurge. It voluntarily drops 3 levels of spellcasting in order to progress in two classes. I think Gestalt should imitate this somewhat.
baltasar_basilius
01-24-07, 06:45 PM gestalt and non-gestalt pretty much just do not mix. Its like comparing oranges and apples, diesel and gasoline, or probably more like comparing peanut butter and donuts. Once you make something gestalt- it stops making sense in the normal gaming world, and the rules break down around it.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with gestalt- and if you want to make a gestalt monster or PC for your campaign, go ahead and play around with some guesstimations. But guessing on what feels right on an individual basis is the only way to do it- you can't make a rule or template that will apply well to everything in this situation. sorry
SokenzanMarauder
01-25-07, 02:20 PM Consider the Mystic Theurge. It voluntarily drops 3 levels of spellcasting in order to progress in two classes. I think Gestalt should imitate this somewhat.

I agree with this. It is an [i]excellent[/b] way to do it because (as Witch mentioned) gestalt is basically doing what a Mystic Theurge is doing except with different classes.

-Gene
JiCi
01-25-07, 04:03 PM I'd make it a +3 - it might be somewhat too high, but:
Consider the Mystic Theurge. It voluntarily drops 3 levels of spellcasting in order to progress in two classes. I think Gestalt should imitate this somewhat.Ok, so CR +3 would be appropriate ?

A wizard 5 / cleric 5 / Mystic Theurge 10 actually lose 5 levels of spellcasting per class. So a gestalt-templated PC would be ECL 5 as, at 20th level, it would the euivalent of 15 levels in 2 classes, yet because you take the best of both classes, I could increase the CR and LA by 1, resulting in a CR +4 and LA +6.

What do you think ?

P.S. anyhow guys, I'm just trying to find a way to apply the gestalt rule to some NPCs without having to apply it to EVERYONE.
Witch
01-25-07, 04:31 PM I'd reduce it to a +1 or +2 for CR.

My take was mostly Level Adjustment.

Note: I've never been a fan of having to return to Wiz/Clr after 10 levels of MT. I'd try to do something about that too - I don't think it's necessary to get back to that. CR +2, LA +3 imo. I'd be interested in playtesting it in a campaign of mine once.
Dracomortis
01-25-07, 07:00 PM Really, you should be able to just throw one or two gestalt NPCs without increasing the CR at all. Think about it: they're going to have an increased number of good saves, but they're still at the same levels you would assume for a creature of its CR. Their base attack bonus and Hit Die size might go up, but again, still on par with others of its CR. The only real difference between gestalt and non-gestalt is that a gestalt creature has more resources, not better ones. At best, I'd say give it a +1 to CR for favorable circumstances, since it has more resources available.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JiCi 01-24-07, 05:02 PM	Gestalt characters are PCs that level up with 2 classes simutaneously, gaining all the good stuff from both classes. However, if you play a gestalt character, most of the major enemies are gestalt characters, and you cannot play a gestalt PC unless the other PCs are gestalt characters too. So I thought of something: what if we could transform a gestalt into a template, resulting with creatures with a highly-developped mentality. Something with: Special qualities: Dual leveling: a gestalt creature can choose 2 classes to level up at the same time. CR: ?? LA: ?? ... and this it where I block, what would be a suitable CR and LA ? Any ideas ? Thanks in advance, JiCi
Armoracia Rusticana 01-24-07, 05:45 PM	CR +1 to 2 LA +2, as most folks think But why use that as template?
JiCi 01-24-07, 05:57 PM	Mostly to use the gestalt rule is ANY kind of game, which can be done by increasing the CR and LA, yet I don't know how much.
Johnny_Angel 01-24-07, 06:31 PM	I don't think it would really be possible to effectively balance a gestalt creature against creatures which aren't gestalt. I'm not sure that I really see the point of it either. I'm not saying it is a bad idea; it's just an idea that I don't understand. If you want a monster to have 2 classes, why not just give them two classes? The reason I say that is because the CR would be pretty close to being the same thing; the only difference is that the creature wouldn't have as many hit dice. I suppose that the CR would increase by 1.5 for every gestalt level taken. As for a level adjustment, I'm not sure how that would work because the adjustment would change depending on how many gestalt levels you had - which would constantly change as you went up in levels.
WinterPsionic 01-24-07, 06:33 PM	....the template doesn't do anything for balance...a Gestalt NPC/Monster would already have an elevated CR/LA based on their creature type...
Witch 01-24-07, 06:34 PM	I'd make it a +3 - it might be somewhat too high, but: Consider the Mystic Theurge. It voluntarily drops 3 levels of spellcasting in order to progress in two classes. I think Gestalt should imitate this somewhat.
baltasar_basilius 01-24-07, 06:45 PM	gestalt and non-gestalt pretty much just do not mix. Its like comparing oranges and apples, diesel and gasoline, or probably more like comparing peanut butter and donuts. Once you make something gestalt- it stops making sense in the normal gaming world, and the rules break down around it. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with gestalt- and if you want to make a gestalt monster or PC for your campaign, go ahead and play around with some guesstimations. But guessing on what feels right on an individual basis is the only way to do it- you can't make a rule or template that will apply well to everything in this situation. sorry
SokenzanMarauder 01-25-07, 02:20 PM	Consider the Mystic Theurge. It voluntarily drops 3 levels of spellcasting in order to progress in two classes. I think Gestalt should imitate this somewhat. I agree with this. It is an [i]excellent[/b] way to do it because (as Witch mentioned) gestalt is basically doing what a Mystic Theurge is doing except with different classes. -Gene
JiCi 01-25-07, 04:03 PM	I'd make it a +3 - it might be somewhat too high, but: Consider the Mystic Theurge. It voluntarily drops 3 levels of spellcasting in order to progress in two classes. I think Gestalt should imitate this somewhat.Ok, so CR +3 would be appropriate ? A wizard 5 / cleric 5 / Mystic Theurge 10 actually lose 5 levels of spellcasting per class. So a gestalt-templated PC would be ECL 5 as, at 20th level, it would the euivalent of 15 levels in 2 classes, yet because you take the best of both classes, I could increase the CR and LA by 1, resulting in a CR +4 and LA +6. What do you think ? P.S. anyhow guys, I'm just trying to find a way to apply the gestalt rule to some NPCs without having to apply it to EVERYONE.
Witch 01-25-07, 04:31 PM	I'd reduce it to a +1 or +2 for CR. My take was mostly Level Adjustment. Note: I've never been a fan of having to return to Wiz/Clr after 10 levels of MT. I'd try to do something about that too - I don't think it's necessary to get back to that. CR +2, LA +3 imo. I'd be interested in playtesting it in a campaign of mine once.
Dracomortis 01-25-07, 07:00 PM	Really, you should be able to just throw one or two gestalt NPCs without increasing the CR at all. Think about it: they're going to have an increased number of good saves, but they're still at the same levels you would assume for a creature of its CR. Their base attack bonus and Hit Die size might go up, but again, still on par with others of its CR. The only real difference between gestalt and non-gestalt is that a gestalt creature has more resources, not better ones. At best, I'd say give it a +1 to CR for favorable circumstances, since it has more resources available.