Post/Author/DateTime	Post
J. Grenemyer 05-24-04, 01:30 PM	Hello, Here's an interesting analysis (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/turningundead.html) by Sean Reynolds of the Turning mechanic and its effects on Undead in the Monster Manual. Do you agree with his conclusions? :D
fiskpaj 05-24-04, 01:40 PM	Yupp. I agree.
Annaylli 05-24-04, 02:22 PM	We're test driving the Turning check option from UA now. So far (3rd level) it's working much like the old system but looks to lose less over time than the core rule. It's also simpler since we don't need to reference the turning chart (turning damage is levelx3 and the turning check is a level check (cha) vs. turning DC). I think the turning system is one of the items that almost demands a fix in an online computer game (easily undead farming since the monster spawns are regular).
Gez 05-25-04, 11:31 AM	How is calculated the turning DC? Is it HD (+ turn resistance) + 10 ?
lugnut71 05-25-04, 11:57 AM	I agree it is such a different mechanic from the rest of the game. Always confuses us.
hecate 05-25-04, 12:21 PM	Aside of the timeliness in looking up the chart, I really have no complaint with the turning system. While I agree that teh turning system seems a little out-of-place, I do not really feel you should be able to turn more than 1 undead of equal HD to yourself (such as the case with vampires, lichs, and ghosts), and a 25% chance is not really that bad; especially if you take into account that his example cleric is, relatively speaking, a poor undead turner due to his low charisma. Additionally, stacking a high charisma, knowledge (religion) 5+ ranks, improved turning feat, (extra turning feat), and certain items (mentioned in Sean K Reynold's post) you really increase your chances a good bit. Of course, there is always undead fighting specific prestige classes as well.
eggplantm 05-25-04, 03:08 PM	I like that idea of having the cleric dice of damage to undead like the rogue's sneak attack bonus. The cleric gets 1d6 of turning damage that he can apply in full to one undead target or divide in in half apply it to all targets in let's say a 60 ft cone? Would charisma need to apply to this mechanic anymore? I'd kind of like it to. I might try out this rule except I'd also have it apply to outsiders that oppose the alignment axis of your diety or if your diety is let's say lawful good, you choose at character creation if you can turn chaotic or evil outsiders. That would be sweet! It would also solve that problem of everyone wanting to be able to turn evil outsiders anyway. Unfortunately, if I do this I have to think up ways for existing mechanics to adapt as well. How does turn resistance work? Perhaps I'd just multiply the turn resistance number by 5 and treat it as energy resistance that applies to turning? That would mean values from 10 to 20 which is about right. Items that add to turn resistance add to your effective cleric or paladin level. So the Phylacter of undead turning treats you as being 4 levels higher in your paladin or cleric class for turning. Bolster Turning: Add +1 to the bolstered character's die rolls for each d6 of turning damage. Cumulative? Not sure? Add your charisma modifier to your turning TOTAL. Not per damage die rolled. The other way would make it too good. Yeah! I'm liking this idea a lot! Y'know I just realized that the turning ability is a special ability of the cleric and paladin class. How many PRC legitimately allow this to continue to increase? I don't think there are many.
hecate 05-25-04, 04:01 PM	You could treat it like death touch with a special descriptor. The Cleric applies d6+cha modifier damage to all undead in a burst/cone/whatever per level. Cleric's Turning Level less than or equal to Undead's HD If the damage exceeds the undead's HP total then it is turned. If the damage equals one-half to 1 less than the undead's HP total, then the undead is effecively stunned for 1 round. If the damage is less than one-half then the undead is unaffected. Cleric's Turning Level greater than Undead's HD If the damage exceeds the undead's HP total then it is destroyed. If the damage equals one-half to 1 less than the undead's HP total, then the undead is turned. If the damage is less than one-half then the undead is stunned for 1 round. (Just a quick idea, anyways... :)) Originally posted by eggplantm Y'know I just realized that the turning ability is a special ability of the cleric and paladin class. How many PRC legitimately allow this to continue to increase? I don't think there are many. You are correct, there are not many.
Dragonteuthis 05-25-04, 09:22 PM	Yeah, He forgot a few vital items: circlet of persuasion, luckstone, and pale green ioun stone. Those three combined give you a +5 to your turning check, though not to damage. Let's not forget Improved Turning as well. Let's also skip ahead to the most efficient undead-pooping combo imaginable: Sun domain and Extra Turning. That's right, four extra Greater Turning attempts, and the best part is... it's all core!. I've actually had this kind of combo going, and even without using Greater turning attempts, I was making EVERY undead we encountered run away, and MOST of them were destroyed. "Unturnable" Morhgs were fleeing before my holy presence. I didn't even have a luckstone or ioun stone, though I should add I had a phylactery. Turning Undead isn't for everyone. Look, even Sean admits, for a Cha 10 cleric with nothing else amping his turning, Undead remains average to poor at worst. That certainly sounds better than, say, melee combat for a wizard. Sure, a wizard focused in it'll do well, but for your average wizard, it's not the best option. Personally, I don't think turning needs a revamp. It seems to work well for us. Damage is a really bad idea. After all, why waste a standard action doing moderate damage when you can wade into melee and force Will saves or destruction? Doesn't make sense.
eggplantm 05-26-04, 12:55 PM	I'm going to post an alternate undead turning system on this board in just a little bit. It's based on some of the ideas I was rambling about earlier. :)
J. Grenemyer 05-26-04, 01:56 PM	Can't wait to see it! :D