"Your 3rd Level PC is stoned" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Your 3rd Level PC is stoned" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rechan
10-10-07, 12:39 AM Why are cockatrices CR 3?

They're fairly weak combatants, but they have a gaze attack that can turn people to stone. Which is only reversible via Stone to Flesh, a 6th level spell.

But here's the real important thing:
Each character within range of a gaze attack must attempt a saving throw (which can be a Fortitude or Will save) each round at the beginning of his turn.

An opponent can avert his eyes from the creature’s face, looking at the creature’s body, watching its shadow, or tracking the creature in a reflective surface. Each round, the opponent has a 50% chance of not having to make a saving throw.

A creature with a gaze attack can actively attempt to use its gaze as an attack action. The creature simply chooses a target within range, and that opponent must attempt a saving throw. If the target has chosen to defend against the gaze as discussed above, the opponent gets a chance to avoid the saving throw (either 50% chance for averting eyes or 100% chance for shutting eyes). It is possible for an opponent to save against a creature’s gaze twice during the same round, once before its own action and once during the creature’s action.
Emphasis mine.

That's a lot of saving throws.

My issue isn't just the cockatrice. But more over, how do you avoid TPKs with gaze attack monsters? Unless the party flees outright, they are dead.
Sildatorak
10-10-07, 12:50 AM In fairness, a cockatrice doesn't have a gaze attack, their petrification only triggers off of successful bite attacks. That drops the number of saves down to about 3 or so total for a fight with one of them.
Kouk
10-10-07, 12:51 AM But more over, how do you avoid TPKs with gaze attack monsters? Unless the party flees outright, they are dead.

Well, there is always the option of killing it in the first round :P

However, my books say a Cockatrice can only turn you to stone with a DC 12 Fort save when it bites you. It can only make one attack a round, even with a full attack, and DC 12 isn't all that hard to make.

I still don't like to put these sorts of effects against low level players though.
Rechan
10-10-07, 01:04 AM Darnit. I guess I should look more. I thought a cockatrice had a gaze attack; I was looking at a 3rd party monster that's a variant cockatrice with a "you catch on fire" gaze.
Ramenth
10-10-07, 01:38 AM Can I just say, that is an awesome name for a gaze attack?
boozerker
10-10-07, 03:06 AM "Your 3rd Level PC is stoned"

What did that PC smoke?
runestar
10-10-07, 04:04 AM They are very weak physically, but have a potentially devastating attack. That is why their cr is around 3. It is expected to expend about 20-25% of a lv3 party's resources. So on average, 1 PC would be petrified per battle, and the resources would be spent on un-petrifying him, or be 1 man down (roughly 25% of the party's fighting power gone).:P

It is more an average, than a absolute cr, IMO.
Talisman
10-10-07, 07:56 PM My issue isn't just the cockatrice. But more over, how do you avoid TPKs with gaze attack monsters? Unless the party flees outright, they are dead.

~You give the party fair warning that there's a medusa/whatever in the neighborhood
~The party, if they're smart, prepares with anti-petrification supplies
~Some party members don't even have to look at the monster to be useful. Buffing spellcasters come to mind.
~The PCs pump up their saves as much as possible (remember those buffing spellcasters?)
~Roll well.

I put an 8th-level party against a medusa sorcerer and a troll barbarian. It was a tough battle, but nobody got petrified (mildly disappointing to me). The fog cloud cast by the wizard/rogue may have had something to do with that.
Sildatorak
10-10-07, 09:28 PM Also remember that gaze attacks typically have a range to which they are effective. If the party spreads out and uses ranged attacks, they can probably set it up so only one PC is saving each round.
GreenhornDM
10-11-07, 12:06 AM I actually pit my players against a cockatrice :hides: :chicken: and long story short two fights with it happened. One was the fighter jumping at it sword waving like a mentally deficient ogre. Thanks to some bad rolls on his end petrification was involved that day...and not in a good way. Now the poor fighter was alone and the party heard the ruckus so they snuck up on the area and spotted the cockatrice. 1 hold person and coup de grace later and they were at the point in figuring out how to drag the fighter back to town when it's 5 leagues away...
concerro
10-11-07, 01:29 AM I actually pit my players against a cockatrice :hides: :chicken: and long story short two fights with it happened. One was the fighter jumping at it sword waving like a mentally deficient ogre. Thanks to some bad rolls on his end petrification was involved that day...and not in a good way. Now the poor fighter was alone and the party heard the ruckus so they snuck up on the area and spotted the cockatrice. 1 hold person and coup de grace later and they were at the point in figuring out how to drag the fighter back to town when it's 5 leagues away...

You can't hold person a cockatrice. You would need hold monster
GreenhornDM
10-11-07, 07:08 PM Ah that's right, spells always were the part of dnd I knew the least about :doh:
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
10-12-07, 04:51 PM "Your 3rd Level PC is stoned"

What did that PC smoke?

Well, with the variant cockatrice, he'd be blazed instead. :rimshot:

But on topic, I'd agree that it's not very fair, should you fail the saving throw. It's just a cheap way for a DM to try to get rid of a character (which at this level can't be for balance reasons - unless the DM's never heard the name Pun-Pun before), or else a cheap method for the DM to railroad you. A companion's been turned to stone, you need a powerful mage's help. But you need to perform a service for him first. :nonono: It's not a very good idea. But then again, it's based on mythology. Though that didn't stop them from seriously messing with the gorgon. I wonder what they'd do with the Boonnnac (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm) . . . (see bottom of the article).
lulzapalooza
10-13-07, 01:11 PM I've had a low level PC turned to stone in a game I was DMing. It sucked. I laughed.
Archon-John
10-13-07, 01:56 PM Darnit. I guess I should look more. I thought a cockatrice had a gaze attack; I was looking at a 3rd party monster that's a variant cockatrice with a "you catch on fire" gaze.

The Fire Cockatrice is now sponsored by McDonalds.

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/265000/265020SXaw_w.jpg

Gaze monsters are supposed to be scary - but normally you'll only lose one party member per encounter.

I had two bodaks versus a level 8 party (Experienced gamers who build characters well) The Bodaks got one of them through gaze...

The other three wiped the floor with them.
CubeKnight
10-14-07, 07:21 PM When I was DMing, I got a Cockatrice as a random encounter... poor Paladin (level 5 I think... was supposed to be an easy encounter). The Cockatrice critted him (20 followed by 18), and he rolled a 2 on his save. At least they were near the town.
boozerker
10-14-07, 08:14 PM What of an encounter where opponents with the blind fighting feat grapples PCs, locking each of their heads in place to face some creature with a gaze attack?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 10-10-07, 12:39 AM	Why are cockatrices CR 3? They're fairly weak combatants, but they have a gaze attack that can turn people to stone. Which is only reversible via Stone to Flesh, a 6th level spell. But here's the real important thing: Each character within range of a gaze attack must attempt a saving throw (which can be a Fortitude or Will save) each round at the beginning of his turn. An opponent can avert his eyes from the creature’s face, looking at the creature’s body, watching its shadow, or tracking the creature in a reflective surface. Each round, the opponent has a 50% chance of not having to make a saving throw. A creature with a gaze attack can actively attempt to use its gaze as an attack action. The creature simply chooses a target within range, and that opponent must attempt a saving throw. If the target has chosen to defend against the gaze as discussed above, the opponent gets a chance to avoid the saving throw (either 50% chance for averting eyes or 100% chance for shutting eyes). It is possible for an opponent to save against a creature’s gaze twice during the same round, once before its own action and once during the creature’s action. Emphasis mine. That's a lot of saving throws. My issue isn't just the cockatrice. But more over, how do you avoid TPKs with gaze attack monsters? Unless the party flees outright, they are dead.
Sildatorak 10-10-07, 12:50 AM	In fairness, a cockatrice doesn't have a gaze attack, their petrification only triggers off of successful bite attacks. That drops the number of saves down to about 3 or so total for a fight with one of them.
Kouk 10-10-07, 12:51 AM	But more over, how do you avoid TPKs with gaze attack monsters? Unless the party flees outright, they are dead. Well, there is always the option of killing it in the first round :P However, my books say a Cockatrice can only turn you to stone with a DC 12 Fort save when it bites you. It can only make one attack a round, even with a full attack, and DC 12 isn't all that hard to make. I still don't like to put these sorts of effects against low level players though.
Rechan 10-10-07, 01:04 AM	Darnit. I guess I should look more. I thought a cockatrice had a gaze attack; I was looking at a 3rd party monster that's a variant cockatrice with a "you catch on fire" gaze.
Ramenth 10-10-07, 01:38 AM	Can I just say, that is an awesome name for a gaze attack?
boozerker 10-10-07, 03:06 AM	"Your 3rd Level PC is stoned" What did that PC smoke?
runestar 10-10-07, 04:04 AM	They are very weak physically, but have a potentially devastating attack. That is why their cr is around 3. It is expected to expend about 20-25% of a lv3 party's resources. So on average, 1 PC would be petrified per battle, and the resources would be spent on un-petrifying him, or be 1 man down (roughly 25% of the party's fighting power gone).:P It is more an average, than a absolute cr, IMO.
Talisman 10-10-07, 07:56 PM	My issue isn't just the cockatrice. But more over, how do you avoid TPKs with gaze attack monsters? Unless the party flees outright, they are dead. ~You give the party fair warning that there's a medusa/whatever in the neighborhood ~The party, if they're smart, prepares with anti-petrification supplies ~Some party members don't even have to look at the monster to be useful. Buffing spellcasters come to mind. ~The PCs pump up their saves as much as possible (remember those buffing spellcasters?) ~Roll well. I put an 8th-level party against a medusa sorcerer and a troll barbarian. It was a tough battle, but nobody got petrified (mildly disappointing to me). The fog cloud cast by the wizard/rogue may have had something to do with that.
Sildatorak 10-10-07, 09:28 PM	Also remember that gaze attacks typically have a range to which they are effective. If the party spreads out and uses ranged attacks, they can probably set it up so only one PC is saving each round.
GreenhornDM 10-11-07, 12:06 AM	I actually pit my players against a cockatrice :hides: :chicken: and long story short two fights with it happened. One was the fighter jumping at it sword waving like a mentally deficient ogre. Thanks to some bad rolls on his end petrification was involved that day...and not in a good way. Now the poor fighter was alone and the party heard the ruckus so they snuck up on the area and spotted the cockatrice. 1 hold person and coup de grace later and they were at the point in figuring out how to drag the fighter back to town when it's 5 leagues away...
concerro 10-11-07, 01:29 AM	I actually pit my players against a cockatrice :hides: :chicken: and long story short two fights with it happened. One was the fighter jumping at it sword waving like a mentally deficient ogre. Thanks to some bad rolls on his end petrification was involved that day...and not in a good way. Now the poor fighter was alone and the party heard the ruckus so they snuck up on the area and spotted the cockatrice. 1 hold person and coup de grace later and they were at the point in figuring out how to drag the fighter back to town when it's 5 leagues away... You can't hold person a cockatrice. You would need hold monster
GreenhornDM 10-11-07, 07:08 PM	Ah that's right, spells always were the part of dnd I knew the least about :doh:
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 10-12-07, 04:51 PM	"Your 3rd Level PC is stoned" What did that PC smoke? Well, with the variant cockatrice, he'd be blazed instead. :rimshot: But on topic, I'd agree that it's not very fair, should you fail the saving throw. It's just a cheap way for a DM to try to get rid of a character (which at this level can't be for balance reasons - unless the DM's never heard the name Pun-Pun before), or else a cheap method for the DM to railroad you. A companion's been turned to stone, you need a powerful mage's help. But you need to perform a service for him first. :nonono: It's not a very good idea. But then again, it's based on mythology. Though that didn't stop them from seriously messing with the gorgon. I wonder what they'd do with the Boonnnac (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm) . . . (see bottom of the article).
lulzapalooza 10-13-07, 01:11 PM	I've had a low level PC turned to stone in a game I was DMing. It sucked. I laughed.
Archon-John 10-13-07, 01:56 PM	Darnit. I guess I should look more. I thought a cockatrice had a gaze attack; I was looking at a 3rd party monster that's a variant cockatrice with a "you catch on fire" gaze. The Fire Cockatrice is now sponsored by McDonalds. http://www.worth1000.com/entries/265000/265020SXaw_w.jpg Gaze monsters are supposed to be scary - but normally you'll only lose one party member per encounter. I had two bodaks versus a level 8 party (Experienced gamers who build characters well) The Bodaks got one of them through gaze... The other three wiped the floor with them.
CubeKnight 10-14-07, 07:21 PM	When I was DMing, I got a Cockatrice as a random encounter... poor Paladin (level 5 I think... was supposed to be an easy encounter). The Cockatrice critted him (20 followed by 18), and he rolled a 2 on his save. At least they were near the town.
boozerker 10-14-07, 08:14 PM	What of an encounter where opponents with the blind fighting feat grapples PCs, locking each of their heads in place to face some creature with a gaze attack?