And she cried, and cried, until the tears swept the world away. [Archive] - Wizards Community

And she cried, and cried, until the tears swept the world away. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dartanel
09-19-05, 12:49 AM This is a first draft of a monster I intend to confront some of my PCs with in the next session.

Spirit of Tears
Huge Fey
Hit Dice: 14d6 + 98 (147 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: Fly 30 (good)
Armor Class: 17 (-2 size, +4 dex, +5 deflection) Flatfooted 13, Touch 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +7 / +15
Attack: Incorporeal touch + 11 (2d6 sonic + wailing touch)
Full Attack: 2 Incorporeal touches + 11 (2d6 sonic + wailing touch)
Space/Reach: 15ft / 15ft
Special Attacks: Lost in Sorrow, Wailing Touch, Until the Tears Wash You Away, Agony beyond Words.
Special Qualities: Incorporeal Traits, DR 15 / Good, Regeneration 5 (Good), Low-Light Vision.
Saves: Fort + 11, Ref + 13, Will + 12
Abilities: Str ---, Dex 19, Con 24, Int 9, Wis 17, Cha 20
Skills: Listen + 22, Spot + 22, Hide + 16, Sense Motive + 20, Perform (Sing) + 22
Feats: Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always Evil (Any)
Advancement: 15-20 HD (Huge), 21-28 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: ---

[I]From the pool emerges a misty form. The form coalesces into a massive collection of wailing faces in a humanoid shape. Their sorrowful bawling assaults your ears as it approaches.

When a humanoid experiences a prolonged and extreme period of sorrow or anguish, a Spirit of Tears is born. Such spirits typically remain dormant at the site of their progentiors. When other beings approach, they attack, infecting them with uncontrollable sadness and draining their bodies dry of moisture through their tears.
If compelled to communicate, Spirits of Tears speak the language of their progenitors.

Combat
Spirits of Tears hide within pools of moisture until sentient creatures approach within range of their Lost in Sorrow ability. They then appear before their prey, using their wailing touch to prevent an opponents escape until Lost in Sorrow takes full effect. Once its prey is immobilized by Lost in Sorrow, it will use Until the Tears Wash you Away to feed upon them.
If an enemy is able to inflict lethal damage upon the Spirit, it will abandon its attempt to feed and use Agony beyond Words to defend itself. It will flee if it becomes severely wounded.

Lost in Sorrow (Su): As a swift action each round, the Spirit of Tears emits a pitiful chorus of crying and wailing. Any creature with intelligence 3 or higher within 60 feet much make a will save DC 22 or gain a morale penalty equivalent to a negative level. Each successive failure increases this penalty by an additional negative level. If a creature's penalty equals their hit dice, they are rendered helpless as they become lost in complete and utter despair.
Any victim who is not rendered helpless by Lost in Sorrow and is removed from the effect may attempt a will save each minute to reduce the penalty by one. Additionally, any spell or effect that provides a morale bonus will reduce the penalty by one for each application.
This is a [mind-influencing, sonic] effect. The Save DC is charisma based.
Wailing Touch (Su): Any creature who takes damage from the Spirit's incorporeal touch attack must make a foritude save DC 22 or be stunned for one round. This is a [sonic] effect. The Save DC is charisma based.
Until the Tears Wash You Away (SU): Any creature rendered helpless by Lost in Sorrow collapses where they stand, crying uncontrollably. Each minute they spend crying they must make a fortitude save DC 10 + number of previous saves. Failure inflicts 1d6 points of Dessication damage (Sandstorm). If they are rendered unconscious, they will stop, but resume as soon as they reawaken. If they are subject to a spell or effect that gives a morale bonus, they may attempt another will save (DC 22). Success will break the effect and reduce their morale penalty to one less then their hit dice.
Agony beyond Words (SU): As a swift action each round, the Spirit may emit a piercing cry of pain. Any creature within 30 feet of the spirit takes 3d6 points of sonic damage and is nauseated for 1 round. A fortitude save DC 22 negates with nausea and reduces the damage by half. This is a [sonic] effect. The DC is charisma based.

Is this a balanced CR 11?
Is it an interesting encounter?
Any helpful suggestions?
The Vorpal Tribble
09-19-05, 01:13 AM I come up with a CR of 13, maybe even 14. Thats a pretty large ammount of HP for an 11th creature when coupled with that hefty DR and Fast healing. Then you add its incorporeality...

Way too powerful for a CR 11. However, its a very cool critter :thumbsup:
dok
09-19-05, 01:14 AM 1.) The creature has no grapple modifier; incoroporeal creatures can't be grappled.

2.) Incorporeal creatures automatically use Dexterity for melee attacks. So you can drop Weapon Finesse and replace it with a different feat. I'd suggest Ability Focus for one of its special attacks.

3.) Incorporeal creatures shouldn't increase in size with advancement. They take penalties to AC and attack, but don't gain the strength bonus or natural armor increases to offset them.

4.) Lost In Sorrow needs some rewording. "morale penalty equal to a negative level" is bad wording. Negative levels cause the loss of 5 hit points, and cause spellcasters to lose their highest available spell; neither of those are "penalties", so it's unclear if you intended those effects to be included. If you did, you should just say that characters who fail their save suffer a negative level. If you didn't, you should cut-and-paste the penalty-related effects from the description of negative levels:
"-1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks; -1 to effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities)"

Next, let's clean up the rest of the ability:

Additional failed saving throws increase the penalty by an additional -1 per failed save. If a character's total penalty is equal to or greater than their hit dice, they become helpless. One minute after a failed saving throw, the character may attempt a second saving throw to negate that effect.

This is shorter, neater, & cleaner. Yes, it drops the lines about "morale bonuses" offsetting, but the more complicated an ability becomes, the less usable it is.

5.) Why is Agony beyond Words a Swift action? It looks more like it should be a standard action. And why does it make creatures Naseated instead of the much more obvious Deafened?

6.) The DR is really too high for a CR 11 creature. DR 10 / Good is more appropriate, especially given that the creature already has the 50% miss chance provided by the [incorporeal] subtype.
Dartanel
09-19-05, 08:30 AM Too high HP is an easy fix, I'll just drop the Con down.

1)

2) Yup.

3) I added size advancement more for the intimidation factor, which is a big deal with this creature.

4) The reason I didn't out and out say negative level is because I didn't want the victim to die instantly when it gained enough of them. And I didn't want it to be subject to effects that remove negative levels.

5) Because it can do it without interfereing with its other actions, and having lost in sorrow and agony beyond words both be swift prevents the Spirit from using both in one round. And nausea was used for the effect of prevents actions other then movement. Thematically, the whole doing nothing but clucthing your ears in pain bit.

6) Probably right, although my original concept had it at 20, but I thought that was too high.
Needle
09-19-05, 01:55 PM Deafness would negate many of its abilities, no?

It does seem a little high for its CR.. and especially considering the save DC. Still, its a nice conscept.
Dartanel
09-19-05, 08:05 PM Draft 2. I reduced its HD a bit and dropped its con a bit.

Spirit of Tears
Large Fey
Hit Dice: 10d6 + 50 (85 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: Fly 30 (good)
Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, +4 dex, +5 deflection) Flatfooted 14, Touch 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +5 / NA
Attack: Incorporeal touch + 8 (1d8 sonic + wailing touch)
Full Attack: 2 Incorporeal touches + 8 (1d8 sonic + wailing touch)
Space/Reach: 10ft / 10ft
Special Attacks: Lost in Sorrow, Wailing Touch, Until the Tears Wash You Away, Agony beyond Words.
Special Qualities: Incorporeal Traits, DR 10 / Good, Regeneration 5 (Good), Low-Light Vision.
Saves: Fort + 8, Ref + 11, Will + 10
Abilities: Str ---, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 9, Wis 17, Cha 20
Skills: Listen + 18, Spot + 18, Hide + 16, Sense Motive + 16, Perform (Sing) + 18
Feats: Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Ability Focus (Lost in Sorrow), Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always Evil (Any)
Advancement: 11-14 HD (Large), 15-20 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: ---

[I]From the pool emerges a misty form. The form coalesces into a massive collection of wailing faces in a humanoid shape. Their sorrowful bawling assaults your ears as it approaches.

When a humanoid experiences a prolonged and extreme period of sorrow or anguish, a Spirit of Tears is born. Such spirits typically remain dormant at the site of their progentiors. When other beings approach, they attack, infecting them with uncontrollable sadness and draining their bodies dry of moisture through their tears.
If compelled to communicate, Spirits of Tears speak the language of their progenitors.

Combat
Spirits of Tears hide within pools of moisture until sentient creatures approach within range of their Lost in Sorrow ability. They then appear before their prey, using their wailing touch to prevent an opponents escape until Lost in Sorrow takes full effect. Once its prey is immobilized by Lost in Sorrow, it will use Until the Tears Wash you Away to feed upon them.
If an enemy is able to inflict lethal damage upon the Spirit, it will abandon its attempt to feed and use Agony beyond Words to defend itself. It will flee if it becomes severely wounded.

Lost in Sorrow (Su): As a swift action each round, the Spirit of Tears emits a pitiful chorus of crying and wailing. Any creature with intelligence 3 or higher within 60 feet much make a will save DC 22 or gain a negative level. Any victim who is not rendered helpless by Lost in Sorrow and is removed from the effect may attempt a will save each minute to remove one Negative Level.
The negative levels caused by this effect are not energy drain, and thus cannot result in death or level loss.
This is a [mind-influencing, sonic] effect. The Save DC is charisma based.
Wailing Touch (Su): Any creature who takes damage from the Spirit's incorporeal touch attack must make a foritude save DC 20 or be stunned for one round. This is a [sonic] effect. The Save DC is charisma based.
Until the Tears Wash You Away (SU): Any creature who gains negative levels equal to their hit dice from Lost in Sorrow collapses where they stand, crying uncontrollably. Each minute they spend crying they must make a fortitude save DC 10 + number of previous saves. Failure inflicts 1d6 points of Dessication damage (Sandstorm). If they are rendered unconscious, they will stop, but resume as soon as they reawaken. The only way to end this effect is to remove the negative levels.
Agony beyond Words (SU): As a swift action each round, the Spirit may emit a piercing cry of pain. Any creature within 30 feet of the spirit takes 2d6 points of sonic damage and is nauseated for 1 round. A fortitude save DC 20 negates with nausea and reduces the damage by half. This is a [sonic] effect. The DC is charisma based.
ThiefofSouls
09-19-05, 08:40 PM Lost in Sorrow (Su): As a swift action each round, the Spirit of Tears emits a pitiful chorus of crying and wailing. Any creature with intelligence 3 or higher within 60 feet much make a will save DC 22 or gain a negative level. Any victim who is not rendered helpless by Lost in Sorrow and is removed from the effect may attempt a will save each minute to remove one Negative Level.
This is a [mind-influencing, sonic] effect. The Save DC is charisma based.

The abilitie is clearer now, but changing it to negative levels renders the Until the Tears wash you Away abilitie useless, as the creature will instantly die from level loss.
Try making it an exception to the rule of negative levels if it fits better your monster, you could say it takes negative levels but instead of dying the creature becomes helpless.Or maybe the ability makes helpless a creature that is reduced to a certain level by the drain.
Dartanel
09-20-05, 12:29 AM Fixed

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dartanel 09-19-05, 12:49 AM	This is a first draft of a monster I intend to confront some of my PCs with in the next session. Spirit of Tears Huge Fey Hit Dice: 14d6 + 98 (147 hp) Initiative: +8 Speed: Fly 30 (good) Armor Class: 17 (-2 size, +4 dex, +5 deflection) Flatfooted 13, Touch 17 Base Attack/Grapple: +7 / +15 Attack: Incorporeal touch + 11 (2d6 sonic + wailing touch) Full Attack: 2 Incorporeal touches + 11 (2d6 sonic + wailing touch) Space/Reach: 15ft / 15ft Special Attacks: Lost in Sorrow, Wailing Touch, Until the Tears Wash You Away, Agony beyond Words. Special Qualities: Incorporeal Traits, DR 15 / Good, Regeneration 5 (Good), Low-Light Vision. Saves: Fort + 11, Ref + 13, Will + 12 Abilities: Str ---, Dex 19, Con 24, Int 9, Wis 17, Cha 20 Skills: Listen + 22, Spot + 22, Hide + 16, Sense Motive + 20, Perform (Sing) + 22 Feats: Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide) Environment: Any Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 11 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Always Evil (Any) Advancement: 15-20 HD (Huge), 21-28 HD (Gargantuan) Level Adjustment: --- [I]From the pool emerges a misty form. The form coalesces into a massive collection of wailing faces in a humanoid shape. Their sorrowful bawling assaults your ears as it approaches. When a humanoid experiences a prolonged and extreme period of sorrow or anguish, a Spirit of Tears is born. Such spirits typically remain dormant at the site of their progentiors. When other beings approach, they attack, infecting them with uncontrollable sadness and draining their bodies dry of moisture through their tears. If compelled to communicate, Spirits of Tears speak the language of their progenitors. Combat Spirits of Tears hide within pools of moisture until sentient creatures approach within range of their Lost in Sorrow ability. They then appear before their prey, using their wailing touch to prevent an opponents escape until Lost in Sorrow takes full effect. Once its prey is immobilized by Lost in Sorrow, it will use Until the Tears Wash you Away to feed upon them. If an enemy is able to inflict lethal damage upon the Spirit, it will abandon its attempt to feed and use Agony beyond Words to defend itself. It will flee if it becomes severely wounded. Lost in Sorrow (Su): As a swift action each round, the Spirit of Tears emits a pitiful chorus of crying and wailing. Any creature with intelligence 3 or higher within 60 feet much make a will save DC 22 or gain a morale penalty equivalent to a negative level. Each successive failure increases this penalty by an additional negative level. If a creature's penalty equals their hit dice, they are rendered helpless as they become lost in complete and utter despair. Any victim who is not rendered helpless by Lost in Sorrow and is removed from the effect may attempt a will save each minute to reduce the penalty by one. Additionally, any spell or effect that provides a morale bonus will reduce the penalty by one for each application. This is a [mind-influencing, sonic] effect. The Save DC is charisma based. Wailing Touch (Su): Any creature who takes damage from the Spirit's incorporeal touch attack must make a foritude save DC 22 or be stunned for one round. This is a [sonic] effect. The Save DC is charisma based. Until the Tears Wash You Away (SU): Any creature rendered helpless by Lost in Sorrow collapses where they stand, crying uncontrollably. Each minute they spend crying they must make a fortitude save DC 10 + number of previous saves. Failure inflicts 1d6 points of Dessication damage (Sandstorm). If they are rendered unconscious, they will stop, but resume as soon as they reawaken. If they are subject to a spell or effect that gives a morale bonus, they may attempt another will save (DC 22). Success will break the effect and reduce their morale penalty to one less then their hit dice. Agony beyond Words (SU): As a swift action each round, the Spirit may emit a piercing cry of pain. Any creature within 30 feet of the spirit takes 3d6 points of sonic damage and is nauseated for 1 round. A fortitude save DC 22 negates with nausea and reduces the damage by half. This is a [sonic] effect. The DC is charisma based. Is this a balanced CR 11? Is it an interesting encounter? Any helpful suggestions?
The Vorpal Tribble 09-19-05, 01:13 AM	I come up with a CR of 13, maybe even 14. Thats a pretty large ammount of HP for an 11th creature when coupled with that hefty DR and Fast healing. Then you add its incorporeality... Way too powerful for a CR 11. However, its a very cool critter :thumbsup:
dok 09-19-05, 01:14 AM	1.) The creature has no grapple modifier; incoroporeal creatures can't be grappled. 2.) Incorporeal creatures automatically use Dexterity for melee attacks. So you can drop Weapon Finesse and replace it with a different feat. I'd suggest Ability Focus for one of its special attacks. 3.) Incorporeal creatures shouldn't increase in size with advancement. They take penalties to AC and attack, but don't gain the strength bonus or natural armor increases to offset them. 4.) Lost In Sorrow needs some rewording. "morale penalty equal to a negative level" is bad wording. Negative levels cause the loss of 5 hit points, and cause spellcasters to lose their highest available spell; neither of those are "penalties", so it's unclear if you intended those effects to be included. If you did, you should just say that characters who fail their save suffer a negative level. If you didn't, you should cut-and-paste the penalty-related effects from the description of negative levels: "-1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks; -1 to effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities)" Next, let's clean up the rest of the ability: Additional failed saving throws increase the penalty by an additional -1 per failed save. If a character's total penalty is equal to or greater than their hit dice, they become helpless. One minute after a failed saving throw, the character may attempt a second saving throw to negate that effect. This is shorter, neater, & cleaner. Yes, it drops the lines about "morale bonuses" offsetting, but the more complicated an ability becomes, the less usable it is. 5.) Why is Agony beyond Words a Swift action? It looks more like it should be a standard action. And why does it make creatures Naseated instead of the much more obvious Deafened? 6.) The DR is really too high for a CR 11 creature. DR 10 / Good is more appropriate, especially given that the creature already has the 50% miss chance provided by the [incorporeal] subtype.
Dartanel 09-19-05, 08:30 AM	Too high HP is an easy fix, I'll just drop the Con down. 1) 2) Yup. 3) I added size advancement more for the intimidation factor, which is a big deal with this creature. 4) The reason I didn't out and out say negative level is because I didn't want the victim to die instantly when it gained enough of them. And I didn't want it to be subject to effects that remove negative levels. 5) Because it can do it without interfereing with its other actions, and having lost in sorrow and agony beyond words both be swift prevents the Spirit from using both in one round. And nausea was used for the effect of prevents actions other then movement. Thematically, the whole doing nothing but clucthing your ears in pain bit. 6) Probably right, although my original concept had it at 20, but I thought that was too high.
Needle 09-19-05, 01:55 PM	Deafness would negate many of its abilities, no? It does seem a little high for its CR.. and especially considering the save DC. Still, its a nice conscept.
Dartanel 09-19-05, 08:05 PM	Draft 2. I reduced its HD a bit and dropped its con a bit. Spirit of Tears Large Fey Hit Dice: 10d6 + 50 (85 hp) Initiative: +8 Speed: Fly 30 (good) Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, +4 dex, +5 deflection) Flatfooted 14, Touch 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +5 / NA Attack: Incorporeal touch + 8 (1d8 sonic + wailing touch) Full Attack: 2 Incorporeal touches + 8 (1d8 sonic + wailing touch) Space/Reach: 10ft / 10ft Special Attacks: Lost in Sorrow, Wailing Touch, Until the Tears Wash You Away, Agony beyond Words. Special Qualities: Incorporeal Traits, DR 10 / Good, Regeneration 5 (Good), Low-Light Vision. Saves: Fort + 8, Ref + 11, Will + 10 Abilities: Str ---, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 9, Wis 17, Cha 20 Skills: Listen + 18, Spot + 18, Hide + 16, Sense Motive + 16, Perform (Sing) + 18 Feats: Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Ability Focus (Lost in Sorrow), Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide) Environment: Any Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 11 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Always Evil (Any) Advancement: 11-14 HD (Large), 15-20 HD (Huge) Level Adjustment: --- [I]From the pool emerges a misty form. The form coalesces into a massive collection of wailing faces in a humanoid shape. Their sorrowful bawling assaults your ears as it approaches. When a humanoid experiences a prolonged and extreme period of sorrow or anguish, a Spirit of Tears is born. Such spirits typically remain dormant at the site of their progentiors. When other beings approach, they attack, infecting them with uncontrollable sadness and draining their bodies dry of moisture through their tears. If compelled to communicate, Spirits of Tears speak the language of their progenitors. Combat Spirits of Tears hide within pools of moisture until sentient creatures approach within range of their Lost in Sorrow ability. They then appear before their prey, using their wailing touch to prevent an opponents escape until Lost in Sorrow takes full effect. Once its prey is immobilized by Lost in Sorrow, it will use Until the Tears Wash you Away to feed upon them. If an enemy is able to inflict lethal damage upon the Spirit, it will abandon its attempt to feed and use Agony beyond Words to defend itself. It will flee if it becomes severely wounded. Lost in Sorrow (Su): As a swift action each round, the Spirit of Tears emits a pitiful chorus of crying and wailing. Any creature with intelligence 3 or higher within 60 feet much make a will save DC 22 or gain a negative level. Any victim who is not rendered helpless by Lost in Sorrow and is removed from the effect may attempt a will save each minute to remove one Negative Level. The negative levels caused by this effect are not energy drain, and thus cannot result in death or level loss. This is a [mind-influencing, sonic] effect. The Save DC is charisma based. Wailing Touch (Su): Any creature who takes damage from the Spirit's incorporeal touch attack must make a foritude save DC 20 or be stunned for one round. This is a [sonic] effect. The Save DC is charisma based. Until the Tears Wash You Away (SU): Any creature who gains negative levels equal to their hit dice from Lost in Sorrow collapses where they stand, crying uncontrollably. Each minute they spend crying they must make a fortitude save DC 10 + number of previous saves. Failure inflicts 1d6 points of Dessication damage (Sandstorm). If they are rendered unconscious, they will stop, but resume as soon as they reawaken. The only way to end this effect is to remove the negative levels. Agony beyond Words (SU): As a swift action each round, the Spirit may emit a piercing cry of pain. Any creature within 30 feet of the spirit takes 2d6 points of sonic damage and is nauseated for 1 round. A fortitude save DC 20 negates with nausea and reduces the damage by half. This is a [sonic] effect. The DC is charisma based.
ThiefofSouls 09-19-05, 08:40 PM	Lost in Sorrow (Su): As a swift action each round, the Spirit of Tears emits a pitiful chorus of crying and wailing. Any creature with intelligence 3 or higher within 60 feet much make a will save DC 22 or gain a negative level. Any victim who is not rendered helpless by Lost in Sorrow and is removed from the effect may attempt a will save each minute to remove one Negative Level. This is a [mind-influencing, sonic] effect. The Save DC is charisma based. The abilitie is clearer now, but changing it to negative levels renders the Until the Tears wash you Away abilitie useless, as the creature will instantly die from level loss. Try making it an exception to the rule of negative levels if it fits better your monster, you could say it takes negative levels but instead of dying the creature becomes helpless.Or maybe the ability makes helpless a creature that is reduced to a certain level by the drain.
Dartanel 09-20-05, 12:29 AM	Fixed