Animal skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animal skills [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sucineri
10-15-04, 10:43 AM I was curious as to where the +2 to listen and spot on all animals comes from? My friend has a wizard with a lizard familiar and I am writing down it's stuff on his character sheet (he's at home sleeping and being lazy) and I have figured the Balance/Climb/Hide, but there are 2 points of Listen and Spot unaccounted for..then I look at all the other animals and they also have the +2 to listen and spot.

Anyway..where does it come from?
Sphyre
10-15-04, 11:48 AM Not quite sure whate you're asking here...

Familiar's skills are very odd. Familiars use the skill ranks of a regular animal of that type or the masters skill ranks (note, this does not include other bonuses) whichever is better.

When the familiar is within arm reach of the wizard/sorcerer he gains the alertness feat for free, which is +2 Listen and +2 Spot.

Do note though, that these are not skill ranks and does not affect the familiar's spot and listen checks.
Sucineri
10-15-04, 11:56 AM Don't worry about the familiar part yet.

Look specifically at animals as a whole.

Animals get +2 listen and spot, no matter what feats they have..they all get +2 listen and spot for free and I want to know where that comes from.

Like a lizard..they have +3 listen and +3 spot. Their wisdom mod is +1..so that means +2 listen and +2 spot unaccounted for. They have weapon finesse as a feat..so that doesn't explain it.
Sphyre
10-15-04, 12:11 PM Like a lizard..they have +3 listen and +3 spot. Their wisdom mod is +1..so that means +2 listen and +2 spot unaccounted for. They have weapon finesse as a feat..so that doesn't explain it.

Pg 305-306 MM
Animal Type
Skill points (2+int mod, min 1) (All animals have int of 1 or 2, which means one skill point a level) (4x skills at first level)

so The lizard has 6 skills with it's first level. What does this mean? you found one of their many mistakes :P It has 2 ranks in spot 2 ranks in listen and +2 in climb... any two of which shouldn't be there.
Sucineri
10-15-04, 01:36 PM Skill points (2+int mod, min 1) (All animals have int of 1 or 2, which means one skill point a level) (4x skills at first level)

so The lizard has 6 skills with it's first level. What does this mean? you found one of their many mistakes It has 2 ranks in spot 2 ranks in listen and +2 in climb... any two of which shouldn't be there.

Actually..the int of a lizard is 1..so that would be 2-5 = 1 (min 1) per level.
4x1 = 4 skills at first level, not 6.

But the lizard's HD is "1/2 d8 (2 hp)"..so would that mean a max of 2 ranks per skill at first level..or what? This whole deal has me confused here.

Lizard has +2 climb, +2 spot, +2 listen that needs to be dealt with..and if the lizard only has 4 skill points that you can only have max of 2 ranks each then it makes sense MAYBE to have +2 to two of these skills..but there are an extra +2.

But then you have to look that EVERY animal has the +2 to spot and listen..so does that mean that there aren't ranks spent for that and animals just have a bonus naturally for being animals? If so, where is this listed?

I hate this whole situation. But then I am going to have to change the size of the creature smaller by 1 because my friend said he wanted to have a gecko since a gecko is a lizard..but a gecko is under a foot long and "tiny" is 1-2 feet.

GAH! THIS IS CRAP! :D

*note*
I am trying to figure out WHY the base creature has what it has before I apply the additions of being a familiar (6 int instead of 1..which I guess would still end up with the same amount of skill points)..but just need to figure out the base creature all the way first.

Oh..and as a familiar does it actually grow in "levels", or does it just constantly get stronger? Cuz it counts as having 1/2 of a d8 hit die..so when it gains a level does it become 2d8, or 1-1/2d8, or 1d8? Anyway..thanks for reading atleast.
Raven Dark
10-15-04, 02:00 PM Eagles, Hawks, Owls, & Ravens all get the Alertness feat as a bonus feat as per errata. Maybe that is what is missing? The feat was omitted in the original print of the v3.5 MM.

AS PER THE ERRATA:
Creature Feat Change
Pseudodragon gains Alertness
Sprite, Grig gains Stealthy
Sprite, Nixie gains Alertness
Sprite, Pixie gains Alertness
Swarm, Rat gains Stealthy
Vargouille gains Stealthy

Animals
Badger gains Agile
Cat gains Stealthy
Eagle gains Alertness
Hawk gains Alertness
Lizard gains Stealthy
Monkey gains Agile
Owl gains Alertness
Rat gains Stealthy
Raven gains Alertness
Snake gains Improved Initiative
Weasel gains Agile

These creatures each get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. The error here is in that these creatures don't meet the requirements for the Weapon Finesse feat so the errata makes it into a bonus feat and gives them an additional one as a general feat (as shown above) in order to fix it.
Sphyre
10-15-04, 02:01 PM Actually..the int of a lizard is 1..so that would be 2-5 = 1 (min 1) per level.
4x1 = 4 skills at first level, not 6.

Right, reread the portion "two of which shouldn't be there"

I told you. It's a mistake. WotC tends to do that. They aren't always consistent. If it's bothering you that much do one of twe things:
Increase the racial climb bonus by 2, this makes the thing have 2 ranks in listen and spot
take out two skill ranks. Currently those 6 are assigned but only 4 should be assigned.

Oh..and as a familiar does it actually grow in "levels", or does it just constantly get stronger? Cuz it counts as having 1/2 of a d8 hit die..so when it gains a level does it become 2d8, or 1-1/2d8, or 1d8? Anyway..thanks for reading atleast.

No. Familiars are not like animal companions. They gain bonuses based on it's master - but it never gains a hitdie or anything like that.
SALDAR
10-15-04, 02:28 PM It seems that all animals have the Alertness feat as a bonus without it being written into the rules. This would also explain why a familiar grants the feat to its master without having the feat listed in the animal’s description. I believe it may be an oversight by WoTC.

As for a familiar’s hit dice, they are equal to their master’s character level or their own, whichever is higher with regards to effects based on HD. In the case of the lizard in question, since it has ½ HD (I.E. less than 1), its HD would be considered equal to its master’s character level (not class level). It would have ½ of its master’s hit points, no matter its HD.
Sucineri
10-15-04, 03:20 PM It seems that all animals have the Alertness feat as a bonus without it being written into the rules. This would also explain why a familiar grants the feat to its master without having the feat listed in the animal’s description. I believe it may be an oversight by WoTC.

That exactly what I was getting at. EVERY animal in the 3.5 MM seems to have this feat without having the feat. :P

I just now downloaded the errata so I am gonna give it a look. :)
Raven Dark
10-15-04, 04:53 PM Did you see this +2 / +2 thing only in the animals in the appendix? Or is it occuring with Dire Animals and Dinosaurs too?

I've known that animal skills have been screwed up for a long time, but I never figured out why. I'm going to keep track of this thread.
Sucineri
10-15-04, 05:49 PM Actually I only looked at normal animals in the appendix..I can go ahead and give dires and dinos a looksee though..brb

*edit*
Dinos are fine..

Dires look fine as well..

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sucineri 10-15-04, 10:43 AM	I was curious as to where the +2 to listen and spot on all animals comes from? My friend has a wizard with a lizard familiar and I am writing down it's stuff on his character sheet (he's at home sleeping and being lazy) and I have figured the Balance/Climb/Hide, but there are 2 points of Listen and Spot unaccounted for..then I look at all the other animals and they also have the +2 to listen and spot. Anyway..where does it come from?
Sphyre 10-15-04, 11:48 AM	Not quite sure whate you're asking here... Familiar's skills are very odd. Familiars use the skill ranks of a regular animal of that type or the masters skill ranks (note, this does not include other bonuses) whichever is better. When the familiar is within arm reach of the wizard/sorcerer he gains the alertness feat for free, which is +2 Listen and +2 Spot. Do note though, that these are not skill ranks and does not affect the familiar's spot and listen checks.
Sucineri 10-15-04, 11:56 AM	Don't worry about the familiar part yet. Look specifically at animals as a whole. Animals get +2 listen and spot, no matter what feats they have..they all get +2 listen and spot for free and I want to know where that comes from. Like a lizard..they have +3 listen and +3 spot. Their wisdom mod is +1..so that means +2 listen and +2 spot unaccounted for. They have weapon finesse as a feat..so that doesn't explain it.
Sphyre 10-15-04, 12:11 PM	Like a lizard..they have +3 listen and +3 spot. Their wisdom mod is +1..so that means +2 listen and +2 spot unaccounted for. They have weapon finesse as a feat..so that doesn't explain it. Pg 305-306 MM Animal Type Skill points (2+int mod, min 1) (All animals have int of 1 or 2, which means one skill point a level) (4x skills at first level) so The lizard has 6 skills with it's first level. What does this mean? you found one of their many mistakes :P It has 2 ranks in spot 2 ranks in listen and +2 in climb... any two of which shouldn't be there.
Sucineri 10-15-04, 01:36 PM	Skill points (2+int mod, min 1) (All animals have int of 1 or 2, which means one skill point a level) (4x skills at first level) so The lizard has 6 skills with it's first level. What does this mean? you found one of their many mistakes It has 2 ranks in spot 2 ranks in listen and +2 in climb... any two of which shouldn't be there. Actually..the int of a lizard is 1..so that would be 2-5 = 1 (min 1) per level. 4x1 = 4 skills at first level, not 6. But the lizard's HD is "1/2 d8 (2 hp)"..so would that mean a max of 2 ranks per skill at first level..or what? This whole deal has me confused here. Lizard has +2 climb, +2 spot, +2 listen that needs to be dealt with..and if the lizard only has 4 skill points that you can only have max of 2 ranks each then it makes sense MAYBE to have +2 to two of these skills..but there are an extra +2. But then you have to look that EVERY animal has the +2 to spot and listen..so does that mean that there aren't ranks spent for that and animals just have a bonus naturally for being animals? If so, where is this listed? I hate this whole situation. But then I am going to have to change the size of the creature smaller by 1 because my friend said he wanted to have a gecko since a gecko is a lizard..but a gecko is under a foot long and "tiny" is 1-2 feet. GAH! THIS IS CRAP! :D note I am trying to figure out WHY the base creature has what it has before I apply the additions of being a familiar (6 int instead of 1..which I guess would still end up with the same amount of skill points)..but just need to figure out the base creature all the way first. Oh..and as a familiar does it actually grow in "levels", or does it just constantly get stronger? Cuz it counts as having 1/2 of a d8 hit die..so when it gains a level does it become 2d8, or 1-1/2d8, or 1d8? Anyway..thanks for reading atleast.
Raven Dark 10-15-04, 02:00 PM	Eagles, Hawks, Owls, & Ravens all get the Alertness feat as a bonus feat as per errata. Maybe that is what is missing? The feat was omitted in the original print of the v3.5 MM. AS PER THE ERRATA: Creature Feat Change Pseudodragon gains Alertness Sprite, Grig gains Stealthy Sprite, Nixie gains Alertness Sprite, Pixie gains Alertness Swarm, Rat gains Stealthy Vargouille gains Stealthy Animals Badger gains Agile Cat gains Stealthy Eagle gains Alertness Hawk gains Alertness Lizard gains Stealthy Monkey gains Agile Owl gains Alertness Rat gains Stealthy Raven gains Alertness Snake gains Improved Initiative Weasel gains Agile These creatures each get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. The error here is in that these creatures don't meet the requirements for the Weapon Finesse feat so the errata makes it into a bonus feat and gives them an additional one as a general feat (as shown above) in order to fix it.
Sphyre 10-15-04, 02:01 PM	Actually..the int of a lizard is 1..so that would be 2-5 = 1 (min 1) per level. 4x1 = 4 skills at first level, not 6. Right, reread the portion "two of which shouldn't be there" I told you. It's a mistake. WotC tends to do that. They aren't always consistent. If it's bothering you that much do one of twe things: Increase the racial climb bonus by 2, this makes the thing have 2 ranks in listen and spot take out two skill ranks. Currently those 6 are assigned but only 4 should be assigned. Oh..and as a familiar does it actually grow in "levels", or does it just constantly get stronger? Cuz it counts as having 1/2 of a d8 hit die..so when it gains a level does it become 2d8, or 1-1/2d8, or 1d8? Anyway..thanks for reading atleast. No. Familiars are not like animal companions. They gain bonuses based on it's master - but it never gains a hitdie or anything like that.
SALDAR 10-15-04, 02:28 PM	It seems that all animals have the Alertness feat as a bonus without it being written into the rules. This would also explain why a familiar grants the feat to its master without having the feat listed in the animal’s description. I believe it may be an oversight by WoTC. As for a familiar’s hit dice, they are equal to their master’s character level or their own, whichever is higher with regards to effects based on HD. In the case of the lizard in question, since it has ½ HD (I.E. less than 1), its HD would be considered equal to its master’s character level (not class level). It would have ½ of its master’s hit points, no matter its HD.
Sucineri 10-15-04, 03:20 PM	It seems that all animals have the Alertness feat as a bonus without it being written into the rules. This would also explain why a familiar grants the feat to its master without having the feat listed in the animal’s description. I believe it may be an oversight by WoTC. That exactly what I was getting at. EVERY animal in the 3.5 MM seems to have this feat without having the feat. :P I just now downloaded the errata so I am gonna give it a look. :)
Raven Dark 10-15-04, 04:53 PM	Did you see this +2 / +2 thing only in the animals in the appendix? Or is it occuring with Dire Animals and Dinosaurs too? I've known that animal skills have been screwed up for a long time, but I never figured out why. I'm going to keep track of this thread.
Sucineri 10-15-04, 05:49 PM	Actually I only looked at normal animals in the appendix..I can go ahead and give dires and dinos a looksee though..brb edit Dinos are fine.. Dires look fine as well..