Animate Undead - Best used on? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animate Undead - Best used on? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Phase
05-09-07, 07:53 AM If there is a thread like this already, my bad, if you would link it.. But if not...

What are the best monsters to use Animate Undead on? So far skeleton dragons seem very nice along with zombie Hydras (each head attack is a standard action).. Other then that, I need some hardcore brutes... Dragons seems like the best bet because of all the natural attacks and since BAB is based off of 1/2 HD, it hurts alot of things that wouldnt use natural attacks.
Phase
05-10-07, 02:19 AM Bump - Id really love to know others ideas on some of the best undead to make.. Im ganna take a look through the MM's and see what I think besides dragons, but if anyone else has info on it, please do share
RLRapp
05-10-07, 04:12 AM I did a thread like this about a year ago but I can't find it since they redid the forums about six months ago. One thing to remember tha animate dead will produce a maximum of a 20 hit die skeleton or zombie, which limits you to a 20 HD base creature for skeletons and a 10 HD creature for zombies.
Phase
05-10-07, 04:45 AM Good catch... I read that, but must of looked over it.

Foils my plan of making a super-powered one. But still, by level 5 you can create 20HD worth of undead... And I can do it in one cast at that.. So, by level 20, I can control 40HD, 80HD with a rod, thats still 4 20HD monsters.. Not quite as much as I hoped, but it works non the less...

only real reason to zombify something, is to have a flying mount... Skeletons are where the pain is.. Having a few huge skeleton zombies with +25 or higher on 2 claws, 2 wings, a bite, and a tail attack... It will still get the job done

Edit: This is another reason why Im thinking a skeleton dragon can make the best pet... In my group, dragons are something we fight alot, simply because everyone always has fun when they know a dragon is involved. Along with, they have a ton of natural attacks... Id have to find something else with as many attacks to catch up to a dragon, which might end up being a hydra

Edit2: 12 headed Hydra = 12HD, 12 attacks allowed at +17(Animated it would be 1/2 HD - 6 + str(roughly +7 w/corpsecrafter) so 13.. not a significant loss when you have 12 attacks), but with the current rules, the BAB is significntly lower... As the animated dragons say to keep their attacks the same
obrysii
05-10-07, 02:16 PM The most cheesy thing to do is to animate rabbits or something else with 1/4 HD (minimum 1hp).

Then you cast Polymorph Object on the rabbit skeleton to transform it into a 12-headed hydra (with only 1/4hd).

So basically, while normally you can only control 4 HD per caster level, you can now control 16 of these 1 hit point hydras. And while each attack has a very low chance to hit, there's a total of a 192 attacks for all 16 of your animated minions.
EvilVegan
05-10-07, 02:41 PM Foils my plan of making a super-powered one. But still, by level 5 you can create 20HD worth of undead... And I can do it in one cast at that.. So, by level 20, I can control 40HD, 80HD with a rod, thats still 4 20HD monsters.. Not quite as much as I hoped, but it works non the less...Your math is off. At 20th level you can control 80 HD of undead, one of which is up to 40 HD. Without items.

You can control your caster level X 4.

You can create your caster level X 2.

There are domains, class abilities, and items that can affect this.

Dread necromancer for instance can control (caster level + some) X 4

Cleric with Deathbound domain can create more than caster level X 2 at a time.

Desecrate doubles the amount you can create. (In other words you can create one undead that maxes out your base control)

So as far as I know the biggest thing you can animate at 20th is around 80 HD. I've seen builds that get around 700 HD worth of controlled undead at a time (more in some cases, with indirect control via followers/cohorts/commanded undead with spawn).

A zombie hydra (10-heads) is useful. A zombie dragon is useful.

Skeleton dragons can't fly. A skeletal nightmare is better though.

Also certain feats make zombies more useful/practical. Fell animate/divine fell animate + Corpse crafter + destruction retribution can make an army of kamikaze exploding zombie squirrels that deal a lot of area effect damage.

Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=759515)
Revised Necromancer handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129)
obrysii
05-10-07, 03:14 PM Your math is off. At 20th level you can control 80 HD of undead, one of which is up to 40 HD. Without items.

Yeah, my math was way off.

If you're going crazy:

Dread Necromancer 20 w/ Cha 31 (18 + 5 level + 6 item + 2 lich)

(CL 20 + 10 cha) x 4 = 120 HD worth of undead

Plus Rod of Undead Mastery = 240 HD worth of undead.

1/4th HD rabbit skeleton = 960 1-hp animated rabbit skeletons. Polymorph Any Object them into 12-head Hydras, and you get, ultimately, 11 520 attacks per round.
preacher of nothing
05-10-07, 03:26 PM Yeah, my math was way off.

If you're going crazy:

Dread Necromancer 20 w/ Cha 31 (18 + 5 level + 6 item + 2 lich)

(CL 20 + 10 cha) x 4 = 120 HD worth of undead

Plus Rod of Undead Mastery = 240 HD worth of undead.

1/4th HD rabbit skeleton = 960 1-hp animated rabbit skeletons. Polymorph Any Object them into 12-head Hydras, and you get, ultimately, 11 520 attacks per round.

That sounds awesome with the exception that you would need to somehow be able to cast Polymorph Any Object 960 times. That would....sort of...take a while I guess :D
cog_n_taz
05-11-07, 06:11 AM astral plane, yay! (the answer to all time issues)
EvilVegan
05-11-07, 08:38 AM 1/4th HD rabbit skeleton = 960 1-hp animated rabbit skeletons. Polymorph Any Object them into 12-head Hydras, and you get, ultimately, 11 520 attacks per round.

Hopefully you have Corpsecrafter, Deadly chill, and destruction retribution. They could rush someone and each one uses their last attack to finish off the one that went right before them, causing it to blow up. 11520 attacks per round at 2d8+8 +1d6 cold + 959d6 damage.

Its a very expensive way to kill someone though. And they'd be better off not blowing up. . . but its funny and they need to blow up to make way for the back line to attack..

I'm pretty sure they'll only hit on a 20 (1 BAB + 8 str).

So we'll say they have 11 attacks each (last attack used to kill the one that charged before it to make room for next one).

528 hits at that rate

26 of them are crits

so 1108d8 + 4432 + 528d6 cold + 959d6 negative energy

Average damage 9418 bite + 1848 cold + 3356 negative energy (reflex save for half)
cog_n_taz
05-11-07, 09:01 AM You know, I just had a weird mental picture... destructive retribution, hamster skeletons, and a sling... flying exploding hamster skeletons, go for the eyes boo!
nephsytis
05-11-07, 12:10 PM i'm sure the draconomicon gives templates for skeletal and zombie dragons that allow you to animate then regardless of hitdie... zombies dont double their hit die, but keep a lessened breathweapon and a better natural armour.

although you can animate x2 your caster level in one casting, skeleton and zombies cant cross the HD cap. the dragons from above are the only way i know. desecrate will mean you could raise twice the number of skeletons, rather than one twice as powerful..

however researching "greater animate dead" as a level six spell shouldn't be hard to do (6,000 gp, six weeks and a dc 16 spellcraft) to increase the HD cap to 30, and researching "superior animate dead" as a level 8 spell to increase it to 40 hd would be 8,000 gp, eight weeks and dc 18 (these figures could be right off, as i have never researched a spell yet, only breezed the rules) remember that it's subject to DM fiat, but it seems a natural progression to me, so i'd allow it.

as for whats it best used on
there was a thread on the magic forum that listed them, and i think its in the revised necromancer handbook; 10 headed hydra zombies, t-rexes and fell- animate-coup-de-gras outsiders (the FACDG is best used with chill touch after the battle to dispatch those dying SOBs, simultaneously cleaning up and replenishing your army)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phase 05-09-07, 07:53 AM	If there is a thread like this already, my bad, if you would link it.. But if not... What are the best monsters to use Animate Undead on? So far skeleton dragons seem very nice along with zombie Hydras (each head attack is a standard action).. Other then that, I need some hardcore brutes... Dragons seems like the best bet because of all the natural attacks and since BAB is based off of 1/2 HD, it hurts alot of things that wouldnt use natural attacks.
Phase 05-10-07, 02:19 AM	Bump - Id really love to know others ideas on some of the best undead to make.. Im ganna take a look through the MM's and see what I think besides dragons, but if anyone else has info on it, please do share
RLRapp 05-10-07, 04:12 AM	I did a thread like this about a year ago but I can't find it since they redid the forums about six months ago. One thing to remember tha animate dead will produce a maximum of a 20 hit die skeleton or zombie, which limits you to a 20 HD base creature for skeletons and a 10 HD creature for zombies.
Phase 05-10-07, 04:45 AM	Good catch... I read that, but must of looked over it. Foils my plan of making a super-powered one. But still, by level 5 you can create 20HD worth of undead... And I can do it in one cast at that.. So, by level 20, I can control 40HD, 80HD with a rod, thats still 4 20HD monsters.. Not quite as much as I hoped, but it works non the less... only real reason to zombify something, is to have a flying mount... Skeletons are where the pain is.. Having a few huge skeleton zombies with +25 or higher on 2 claws, 2 wings, a bite, and a tail attack... It will still get the job done Edit: This is another reason why Im thinking a skeleton dragon can make the best pet... In my group, dragons are something we fight alot, simply because everyone always has fun when they know a dragon is involved. Along with, they have a ton of natural attacks... Id have to find something else with as many attacks to catch up to a dragon, which might end up being a hydra Edit2: 12 headed Hydra = 12HD, 12 attacks allowed at +17(Animated it would be 1/2 HD - 6 + str(roughly +7 w/corpsecrafter) so 13.. not a significant loss when you have 12 attacks), but with the current rules, the BAB is significntly lower... As the animated dragons say to keep their attacks the same
obrysii 05-10-07, 02:16 PM	The most cheesy thing to do is to animate rabbits or something else with 1/4 HD (minimum 1hp). Then you cast Polymorph Object on the rabbit skeleton to transform it into a 12-headed hydra (with only 1/4hd). So basically, while normally you can only control 4 HD per caster level, you can now control 16 of these 1 hit point hydras. And while each attack has a very low chance to hit, there's a total of a 192 attacks for all 16 of your animated minions.
EvilVegan 05-10-07, 02:41 PM	Foils my plan of making a super-powered one. But still, by level 5 you can create 20HD worth of undead... And I can do it in one cast at that.. So, by level 20, I can control 40HD, 80HD with a rod, thats still 4 20HD monsters.. Not quite as much as I hoped, but it works non the less...Your math is off. At 20th level you can control 80 HD of undead, one of which is up to 40 HD. Without items. You can control your caster level X 4. You can create your caster level X 2. There are domains, class abilities, and items that can affect this. Dread necromancer for instance can control (caster level + some) X 4 Cleric with Deathbound domain can create more than caster level X 2 at a time. Desecrate doubles the amount you can create. (In other words you can create one undead that maxes out your base control) So as far as I know the biggest thing you can animate at 20th is around 80 HD. I've seen builds that get around 700 HD worth of controlled undead at a time (more in some cases, with indirect control via followers/cohorts/commanded undead with spawn). A zombie hydra (10-heads) is useful. A zombie dragon is useful. Skeleton dragons can't fly. A skeletal nightmare is better though. Also certain feats make zombies more useful/practical. Fell animate/divine fell animate + Corpse crafter + destruction retribution can make an army of kamikaze exploding zombie squirrels that deal a lot of area effect damage. Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=759515) Revised Necromancer handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129)
obrysii 05-10-07, 03:14 PM	Your math is off. At 20th level you can control 80 HD of undead, one of which is up to 40 HD. Without items. Yeah, my math was way off. If you're going crazy: Dread Necromancer 20 w/ Cha 31 (18 + 5 level + 6 item + 2 lich) (CL 20 + 10 cha) x 4 = 120 HD worth of undead Plus Rod of Undead Mastery = 240 HD worth of undead. 1/4th HD rabbit skeleton = 960 1-hp animated rabbit skeletons. Polymorph Any Object them into 12-head Hydras, and you get, ultimately, 11 520 attacks per round.
preacher of nothing 05-10-07, 03:26 PM	Yeah, my math was way off. If you're going crazy: Dread Necromancer 20 w/ Cha 31 (18 + 5 level + 6 item + 2 lich) (CL 20 + 10 cha) x 4 = 120 HD worth of undead Plus Rod of Undead Mastery = 240 HD worth of undead. 1/4th HD rabbit skeleton = 960 1-hp animated rabbit skeletons. Polymorph Any Object them into 12-head Hydras, and you get, ultimately, 11 520 attacks per round. That sounds awesome with the exception that you would need to somehow be able to cast Polymorph Any Object 960 times. That would....sort of...take a while I guess :D
cog_n_taz 05-11-07, 06:11 AM	astral plane, yay! (the answer to all time issues)
EvilVegan 05-11-07, 08:38 AM	1/4th HD rabbit skeleton = 960 1-hp animated rabbit skeletons. Polymorph Any Object them into 12-head Hydras, and you get, ultimately, 11 520 attacks per round. Hopefully you have Corpsecrafter, Deadly chill, and destruction retribution. They could rush someone and each one uses their last attack to finish off the one that went right before them, causing it to blow up. 11520 attacks per round at 2d8+8 +1d6 cold + 959d6 damage. Its a very expensive way to kill someone though. And they'd be better off not blowing up. . . but its funny and they need to blow up to make way for the back line to attack.. I'm pretty sure they'll only hit on a 20 (1 BAB + 8 str). So we'll say they have 11 attacks each (last attack used to kill the one that charged before it to make room for next one). 528 hits at that rate 26 of them are crits so 1108d8 + 4432 + 528d6 cold + 959d6 negative energy Average damage 9418 bite + 1848 cold + 3356 negative energy (reflex save for half)
cog_n_taz 05-11-07, 09:01 AM	You know, I just had a weird mental picture... destructive retribution, hamster skeletons, and a sling... flying exploding hamster skeletons, go for the eyes boo!
nephsytis 05-11-07, 12:10 PM	i'm sure the draconomicon gives templates for skeletal and zombie dragons that allow you to animate then regardless of hitdie... zombies dont double their hit die, but keep a lessened breathweapon and a better natural armour. although you can animate x2 your caster level in one casting, skeleton and zombies cant cross the HD cap. the dragons from above are the only way i know. desecrate will mean you could raise twice the number of skeletons, rather than one twice as powerful.. however researching "greater animate dead" as a level six spell shouldn't be hard to do (6,000 gp, six weeks and a dc 16 spellcraft) to increase the HD cap to 30, and researching "superior animate dead" as a level 8 spell to increase it to 40 hd would be 8,000 gp, eight weeks and dc 18 (these figures could be right off, as i have never researched a spell yet, only breezed the rules) remember that it's subject to DM fiat, but it seems a natural progression to me, so i'd allow it. as for whats it best used on there was a thread on the magic forum that listed them, and i think its in the revised necromancer handbook; 10 headed hydra zombies, t-rexes and fell- animate-coup-de-gras outsiders (the FACDG is best used with chill touch after the battle to dispatch those dying SOBs, simultaneously cleaning up and replenishing your army)