Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bino 10-05-03, 10:21 PM	I put my party up against an adult black dragon tonight. CR 10. Now, that thing has around 200 hit points, frightful presence, spell resistance, more attacks than you can count on one hand, breath weapon, has damage reduction, can cast like a 3rd level sorcerer, can fly 150 ft per round, has hellish AC and base attack, and can create darkness which itself has no difficulty seeing through yet the party can not. I'm thinking that is far more challenging than CR 10. Earlier I put them against a party of four 6th level NPC adventures (CR 6 each) effectively a CR 10 encounter, and those chumps were nothing compared to that single black dragon. It was by far the worst thing the party ever faced. So is there errata that I missed? Is the CR for dragons according to the 3E rules legit?
ruleslawyer 10-05-03, 10:42 PM	Many folks think that dragons are under-CRed, and I agree. The supposed rationale that dragons are under-CRed in order to make them 'boss monsters' is pretty silly.
Gingerbread Guy 10-05-03, 10:45 PM	Well, to be honest, I think the CRs are largely calculated assuming that the DM is a moron. You put your party up against a black dragon that is SUPPOED to just stand there and lets the enemy party surround it and hack away until it keels over and dies. Tragically, you're a better DM than that, and realise it's advantages, such as flight and spells. Thus, you inadvertently raised it's CR by making it smart. How many characters are in your party, and what are they? These dragons are best dealt with using a lot of advanced knowledge and preparation. Spellcasters should focus on healing and boosting spells, and warriors should bring their A-game and hope lady luck likes men with scars. A 10th level party should have access to some mean healing spells and enough boosting spells to keep the party buffed for the whole fight. At least one or two characters should have some nasty acid resistance [again, via spells] and someone should have a means of getting everyone the hell out of there if things go bad [ie, teleport spells, etc]. My point with the strategy is, hopefully your players are as smart as you are. If they come prepared, they'll live. If they get ambushed, they'll die. Even so, however, that dragon doesn't really sound like a CR10 encounter. If you want to see some other really REALLY broken CRs, check out 3rd Edition Colossal Monstrous Scorpion. CR11, with 400+ HP, 3 attacks at around +50 to hit, poison with a Fort save DC 54! and so on.. ugh, thank god they nerfed it in 3.5e ~Ginger
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-05-03, 10:50 PM	Their CR was modified in 3.5, along with a few other stats. I think some of your complaints aren't really valid though - the dragon's DR doesn't count (3.0 or 3.), the frightful presence applies a minor penalty, the SR is barely significant, it's caster level is so low that Dispel Magic will strip it's buffs right off... that last one is key, by the way. The blindsight was nerfed to blindsense in 3.5, meaning a wizard can use Greater Invisibility and still get a benefit from it. Darkness was also nerfed ... but that's not necessarily a positive benefit :) If the dragon tries to get a full-round attack, it will beat the living daylights out of a character ... and then get the living daylight beaten out of it. (It's CR will still be inaccurate, but it's not unbeatable - even with the high AC and hp. Be sure to dispel it's shield and mage armor first, though.) At higher levels it gets worse - then players can fly and make everyone immune to acid.
L33t Angel 10-05-03, 11:13 PM	In any case you don't put 4 lvl 6s against a CR 10 and think that that's a perfectly balanced encounter. That's in fact a freaking HARD encounter! 4 lvl 10s against a CR 10 is an average Encounter. 4 lvl 9s against a CR 10 even has a high chance of someone dyin'.
Bino 10-05-03, 11:47 PM	Okay, thanks all for the responses but let me clarify the scenario. I'm using 3E rules. I care not about 3.5. Therefore the dragon's DR (5/+1) is very much real and in effect. The party does not consist of four 6th level characters. I said that the party FACED an NPC group of four 6th level characters. The point I made was that the four 6th level group encounter (CR 10) was far less challenging- orders of magnitude less challenging- than the single black dragon (CR 10), therefore SOMETHING seems amiss. If it helps, the party consists of four 8th level characters. One is a veritable waring blender fighter of whirling blades, another is a swashbuckler-type fighter, another is a sorcerer with lightning bolts galore, and the last is a wizard/rogue tiefling. The encounter was pretty even on both sides as far as preparation goes. The dragon wasn't expecting them and they weren't expecting the dragon. Both sides were at full HP and spells. They had been faring well against other CR 9 and 10 encounters (they are a smart party who use their abilities cooperatively), so I figured a CR 10 dragon shouldn't be that much different. Boy was I wrong! I basically had to start dumbing down the dragon a little bit just to keep him from cleaning their asses. I didn't use very many spells, only used the breath weapon twice, gave him one less attack per round, and didn't use the darkness ability. It was still a draw, even after the party consumed most of their potions. I feel like that CR in the MM is just plain wrong. Does anyone have recommendations on house-rules for dragon CR? Do you guys use the CR for dragons straight out of the MM or do you adjust it up? And if so, how much?
Ehelonna 10-06-03, 02:41 AM	You might think that two CR x encounters would be the same level of difficulty... they aren't. NPC groups are near the low end, dragons are the high end. Any group of low CR critters are likely to be a walk over. Are 16 goblins (CR 1/4 each, CR 5 as a group) a real challenge to a 5th level party? One fireball could easily kill them all. Pick a random CR 5 critter... that fireball will get it's attention. :rolleyes: Of all the critters available at a specific CR... if a dragon is one of them, it will be the toughest. In 3.5, dragon CRs increased... but they are still one of the toughest encounters of their CR level.
ConfusedUs 10-06-03, 03:09 AM	I find that dragon CRs are about right if the dragon doesn't know the PCs are coming and can't maneuver much (no flying and few places to run). I recently ran my group of 6 6th-level PCs (EL 8) against 2 young adult Fang Dragons from Monsters of Faerunm, CR 8 each. Each dragon was encountered seperately. First dragon, the male. Party was traveling through an extensive cavern complex, ending up in a cave the size of a football stadium. Along the way they'd seen signs of a large, clawed creature's passing. The dragon got the drop on the party, using its voice mimicry to lure them into the middle of the area. It taunted the party for awhile, calling them 'lucnh' and 'dragonsnacks'. It then proceeded to use flyby attack to harass the party. The party's barbarian was knocked to single digit HP, and the cleric to -5 within a couple rounds. If not for some lucky criticals and the dragon failing a save vs. a fireball, it woulda been over for half the party. This definately took more than 20% of the party's resources. It took most of the mage's spells, half of the healing-wand's charges, and almost cost two lives. Next dragon. Two days later, after the party had finished raiding the dragon's horde, skinning the dragon's carcass, and had rested up, they started back on their way. Shorty after heading out of the cavern they hear a melodius voice say "Honey, I'm home! And I brought dinner!". Then there was a roar as the female dragon found the mutilated corpse of its mate. The party hauled ass up the corridor, the dragon breathing down their necks. Several times the party ducked through narrow passages, buying time as the dragon clawed its way through. After several close calls, they found a defensible room, no more than 60 feet in diameter. The raging dragon rushed in, never slowing down as it unleashed a full attack on the party's treant (SS progression lvl 6). The treant got knocked to -8 in that round, but no one else was seriously hurt. The party proceeded to tear this dragon to pieces in three rounds. All in all, this encounter took about 20% of the party's resources, making it right at its CR. Moral of the story. If you take away the dragon's mobility, it's pretty much an even CR match. If the dragon can move, or cast its spells w/o being AoO'd, it's gonna be much, much harder.
Ehelonna 10-06-03, 03:21 AM	Originally posted by ConfusedUs Moral of the story. If you take away the dragon's mobility, it's pretty much an even CR match. If the dragon can move, or cast its spells w/o being AoO'd, it's gonna be much, much harder. If you find it when it's asleep, it can be a cake walk... if you are taken by surprise outdoors it can be a TPK. On average, dragons are tough for their CR.
The man formerly known as Woza 10-06-03, 10:18 AM	Originally posted by Bino Okay, thanks all for the responses but let me clarify the scenario. I'm using 3E rules. I care not about 3.5. Therefore the dragon's DR (5/+1) is very much real and in effect. The CR of 3.0 dragons was underscored because you were meant to know you were going to fight one. They have been re-evaluated higher in 3.5 because most people found this to assume to much about how everyone designs adventures. Originally posted by Bino The party does not consist of four 6th level characters. I said that the party FACED an NPC group of four 6th level characters. The point I made was that the four 6th level group encounter (CR 10) was far less challenging- orders of magnitude less challenging- than the single black dragon (CR 10), therefore SOMETHING seems amiss. On the other hand I find that NPCs have too high a CR. I personally re-evaluated then to Level-1 for PC classes and level-2 for NPC classes. That seems to both a) make encounters more balanced and b) slow the insane level progression of characters under 3rd edition rules.
Oberon_of_Avalon 10-06-03, 10:42 AM	What I really thought was bad was that dragons appear on the random encounters lists for some terrains. So if I roll really good on the appropriate encounter table, my PCs could be up against an adult black dragon who is out scouting his territory, meaning that he'll see the party waaay before they see him. Plus, the party won't expect a dragon to just drop out of the sky, so their rings of greater acid resistance and +3 dragonbane swords are at home today. TPK, right then and there. I prefer the 3.5 scored dragons, because they make a little more sense when it comes to CR. Even though a lot of people think 3.5 is crap, I believe there are some things everyone can benefit from.
Joe Gold 10-06-03, 10:43 AM	Originally posted by Gingerbread Guy If you want to see some other really REALLY broken CRs, check out 3rd Edition Colossal Monstrous Scorpion. CR11, with 400+ HP, 3 attacks at around +50 to hit, poison with a Fort save DC 54! and so on.. ugh, thank god they nerfed it in 3.5e. Is CR 12 that different from CR 11?
bitnine 10-06-03, 11:22 AM	Dragons are balanced for their CR if you ignore their intelligence score and make them do dumb things instead. Which, apparently, does happen a lot of the time.
Dackad 10-06-03, 12:15 PM	Originally posted by Joe Gold Is CR 12 that different from CR 11? More than just it's CR changed.
d_nychus 10-06-03, 12:55 PM	Originally posted by Dackad More than just it's CR changed. 3.0 64 HD and 2d8 Strength damage DC 54 3.5 40 HD and 1d10 Constitution damage DC 33 Advancing the 3.5 Colossal Scorpion to the level the 3.0 Colossal Scorpion (though technically, not possible, it would be 4 HD shy)would make it something closer to a CR 20 or so straight the guesstimation system they have in the 3.5 MM. I personally would place it at CR 17 or 18. CR 11 in the book vs. a CR 17 by the actual useage is a substancial difference.
Joe Gold 10-06-03, 01:06 PM	Well, we've heard some opinions, now no more on that damned scorpion before we get another war going. Now back to dragon CR!!
E-Arkham 10-06-03, 01:35 PM	The bottom line is that the CR of encounters can vary fairly widely based on how the DM runs the encounter. By way of example, the current campaign I'm a part of consists of mostly 10th level characters (last game, two made finally made it to 11th). A Fighter/Mage, a Sorceror/Wizard, a genasi Fighter, and a Paladin are the main four characters. In one adventure, the party was prepared and ready and came across (amoung other things) a 10th level Wizard who was not prepared for the party. The Wizard was given priority and taken out in a single round. In the most recent adventure, the party had just moved from one CR 10 encounter (three trolls and an ogre mage), so had exhausted some of their resources. A 10th level Wizard had spotted them during the fight, and spelled up before hand with Shield, Fly, Protection from Energy, etc. This encounter lasted at least ten to twelve rounds and, as the players put it, was "by far, one of the most challenging opponents we'd ever faced." Dragons are very similar. Given time to prepare before hand, or given time to really bring all their abilities to bear can make the foe far more devastating than in a straight hack-and-slasher. Intelligently played creatures that have done some preparation are always going to be more potent, but I also feel they're far more rewarding for both player and DM in the long run. Kep
d_nychus 10-06-03, 02:51 PM	Originally posted by Joe Gold Well, we've heard some opinions, now no more on that damned scorpion before we get another war going. Now back to dragon CR!! Just pointing out the differences. The 3.5 Colossal Scorpion is clearly much more balanced than the 3.0 one. Anyways, let's look at this with more focus. In 3.0, the adult black in question is a CR10. In 3.5 it's a CR 11. Not a HUGE difference, but I personally am going to go with the 3.5 CR being a heck of a lot closer than the 3.0, just based on my personal experiences with them. Now, let's look at the CR 10/11 dragon going against what it SHOULD be going against. Let's get rid of the non-issue factors first. DR- Nullified by any magic items, which a 10/11th level character should have. AC- Barring any spells, this should be no problem the PC's on average need a +17 to hit consistantly, which should be pretty common for PC's. Even the weaker NPC examples have a +14/+15 to hit at those levels, and they are a far cry from the average PC. Spells - 3rd level spell caster. Just not enough to really make a difference save on a few defensive spells (like mage armor) Immunities- Dragons are immune to effects that they would be pretty much immune to with their saves alone Umm, okay? Now, let's look at the actual variables. SR and saves-will block about 35-40% of the spells cast at it, and it has just outstanding saves (all good). Honestly, not much is getting through to hurt it. Clearly not a "mage friendly" monster. hp- for a CR 10-11, 199 hp is not overly that much. hp can go from 78 to 300 in the CR 11 range in the MM, though the average is around the low 100's (this is just based off a quick skim and personal knowledge). 199 is in the "managable" area, but definately on the high end. 5 attacks a round - 2d6 +Str, 2 at 1d8 +1/2Str, 2 at 1d6+1/2 Str, and one at 1d8+1 1/2 Str. Str 23 (+6). Yeouch. +19 base attack. Again, Yeouch. On average, a dragon WILL hit a PC, and do some pretty decent damage. Not even remotely the BEST physical damage for a CR 11, but definately higher than average. Mobility - Dragons typically have 3 base forms of speed, including flying, and all forms really decent amounts. Yeah, that's about teh best mobility in the CR 11 range. All ranges actually, I think. Breath Weapon- Normally unavoidable damage with a save for half. Though not an insane amout for a black, it still packs quite a punch. Probably will knock off around 25% of the main tank's hp in a single attack. That's really good. Frightful Presence- Yeah, so we have established that this thing is has a huge inherent spellcaster block, so you need to leave it to warrior types to deal with the main threat. But warrior types typically have low Will saves. And that's what this abiltiy targets. It is something that characters who have GOOD will saves can average around 50-60% of the time, so most melee characters are screwed by this. I think that's enough. The dragon is all strengths and virtually no weaknesses. Unless you count being as big as a barn a weakness. Yeah, even though 3.5 just a LITTLE closer in finding the right CR, I agree it dragons are still under CR'ed. I almost want to add 2 to the CR, make it a CR 13. I need to reexamine this a bit, however, before doing anything hasty.
bitnine 10-06-03, 03:42 PM	Originally posted by d_nychus 5 attacks a round - 2d6 +Str, 2 at 1d8 +1/2Str, 2 at 1d6+1/2 Str, and one at 1d8+1 1/2 Str. Str 23 (+6). Yeouch. +19 base attack. Again, Yeouch. On average, a dragon WILL hit a PC, and do some pretty decent damage. Not even remotely the BEST physical damage for a CR 11, but definately higher than average. Don't overlook the grapplage. Dragons make excellent grapplers, able to move in and pin quite easily, then drag said party member off into the sky. And, oddly enough, there's still a 50/50 of hitting your party member instead of the Dragon should you attack physically. And once grappling, it becomes less of an "on average" for that damage, and more of a "not a 1" sort of thing.
Bino 10-06-03, 03:56 PM	Originally posted by d_nychus Now, let's look at the CR 10/11 dragon going against what it SHOULD be going against. Let's get rid of the non-issue factors first. ...DR- Nullified by any magic items, which a 10/11th level character should have. Most characters would have at least one magical weapon by that level. Some characters, for one reason or another, may not. Some characters may be able to fight with two weapons, yet only have one being magical. If they are in a monte haul campaign where they can go to the magical Wal-Mart and buy whatever they can afford however, then I guess every character would more than enough magical weaponry to get the job done. AC- Barring any spells, this should be no problem the PC's on average need a +17 to hit consistantly, which should be pretty common for PC's. Even the weaker NPC examples have a +14/+15 to hit at those levels, and they are a far cry from the average PC. A 10th level fighter with a str of 18, weapon focus, and a +2 sword would have such a chance. Not every character is a fighter with a +2 sword, the right feats, and max strength however. Even then, I don't consider hitting half the time to be hitting "consistantly". Spells - 3rd level spell caster. Just not enough to really make a difference save on a few defensive spells (like mage armor) I think Mage Armor and Shield on top of a 27 AC is about all I would need to whip a level 10 party's butt, personally. That would make me what, AC 38 if I played my shield right? No level 10 character is going to hit AC 38 save natural 20. Frightful Presence- Yeah, so we have established that this thing is has a huge inherent spellcaster block, so you need to leave it to warrior types to deal with the main threat. I'm not sure what you mean. Does Frightful Presence hinder spellcasters? Maybe I need to go back and read that Shaken descriptor. Yeah, even though 3.5 just a LITTLE closer in finding the right CR, I agree it dragons are still under CR'ed. I almost want to add 2 to the CR, make it a CR 13. I need to reexamine this a bit, however, before doing anything hasty. What I eventually did was award the character xp from a CR 11 encounter. The encounter was pretty much a draw. The party was beat down, but the dragon took a lot of damage and might have actually went down on a couple more lucky hits. The fighter was hitting on average once per round and some of those were crits thanks to his keen sword and improved crit feat. The sorceror was chunking lightning bolts left and right, some of them getting through the SR and even with the dragon's save he was taking pretty decent damage. The swashbuckler went Total Defense to absorb some of the dragon's attacks, after which only his bite attack could consistantly hit her. Before long however, the party was engaged in a fighting retreat, most of their potions were consumed. The dragon is smart, so he wasn't going to press the attack and go down like a chump to a couple of lucky counterblows. He flew off and lives to fight another day. Now, when the party meets him again, he will no doubt be ready to counter their attack unless they really change their strategy. Now THAT will probably be a CR 12 or 13 encounter!
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-06-03, 05:28 PM	Originally posted by Ehelonna You might think that two CR x encounters would be the same level of difficulty... they aren't. NPC groups are near the low end, dragons are the high end. Any group of low CR critters are likely to be a walk over. Are 16 goblins (CR 1/4 each, CR 5 as a group) a real challenge to a 5th level party? One fireball could easily kill them all. Pick a random CR 5 critter... that fireball will get it's attention. :rolleyes: Of all the critters available at a specific CR... if a dragon is one of them, it will be the toughest. In 3.5, dragon CRs increased... but they are still one of the toughest encounters of their CR level. As mentioned earlier, why don't your players have +1 weapons? An 8th-level cleric can certainly use a 1s-level spell to make the arrows or bolts magical.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-06-03, 07:00 PM	I used an adult red dragon vs a level 21, 5 pewrson party. At this point , he should have just been mildly annoying, but he was outside in a caldera lake. All the PCs were in single digits before he was taken out. Fighting in three dimensions and making use of his insane fly speed makes a dragon a deadly foe and way out of CR if you play them as something other that a beast with powers.
Dalaeck 10-07-03, 10:26 AM	Originally posted by d_nychus CR 11 in the book vs. a CR 17 by the actual useage is a substancial difference. Please D, I've already taken you to town on the collosal scorpion issue don't raise it again it just makes you look silly. Its 3.0 CR is fair and balanced. The CR of dragons is by and large incorrect. They are more dangerous than most monsters of equal CR and that's largely because of versatility and intelligence. This is Dungeons and Dragons and the word "dragon" should resonate in players minds. Although it may not be the "objectively correct" way when designing a game to introduce a particular mindset on players, it is highly effective for the average player and average DM. In my games the mention of "dragon" translates to "a tough fight no matter which way you look at it". As DM there are few words that really drop the "fear threshold" than "dragon". Even the sound of a distant dragon roar echoing through caverns is enough to make the whole party switch mindset. That being said, I am one of the few that remain who think tradition is not antithetical to mechanics. Indeed if there is bias to be introduced in the game it should be for the traditional elements of play (like gnomish illusionist, wizard spells that are powerful, etc...) and archetypes (the dragon is the most feasome beast of myth and legend) rather than some idiot designer's whim and fancy a la 3.5. I'm sure many people will disagree and simply say "I want my dragons of appropriate CR so that I can decide when to make the encounter tougher". I suppose you would have to reduce treasure from the dragon entry as well. A monster's CR is also to be mitigated by the rewards reaped afterwards and dragons have notoriously good "hoards"... Who knows, I'm just an old wizard... tell me Bino, did your players aquire admiration of the beast they felled? And maybe a little twinge of fear upon approach of another?
d_nychus 10-07-03, 12:01 PM	Umm, right, you took me to town. Thanks for buying all my groceries too. And, umm, no, you can't live in my tool shed. I think anyone sane can see the point of this. Anyone SANE.
d_nychus 10-07-03, 12:08 PM	Originally posted by bitnine Don't overlook the grapplage. Dragons make excellent grapplers, able to move in and pin quite easily, then drag said party member off into the sky. And, oddly enough, there's still a 50/50 of hitting your party member instead of the Dragon should you attack physically. And once grappling, it becomes less of an "on average" for that damage, and more of a "not a 1" sort of thing. Yep, and don't forget Snatch, too. The old swoop and scoop technique is awesome for dragons. This is another factor that mobility plays a heavy role. They can fly faster than most any other creature in the game, including the PC's with magic. Or you get a water dragon who Swims and uses the most utterly broken form of killing a character in the game....
d_nychus 10-07-03, 12:39 PM	Originally posted by Bino Most characters would have at least one magical weapon by that level. Some characters, for one reason or another, may not. Some characters may be able to fight with two weapons, yet only have one being magical. If they are in a monte haul campaign where they can go to the magical Wal-Mart and buy whatever they can afford however, then I guess every character would more than enough magical weaponry to get the job done. The basic game is set up so that a PC can start to "afford" a magic weapon after only a few levels. That meanst that the PC SHOULD have a magic weapon by around 5th or 6th level at the least, whether he had it made, made it, found it, or just had it drop out of the sky into his lap. If the DM decides NOT to let the PC get what a character of his level should have, then that is the DM's fault for creating an imbalanced party. Originally posted by Bino A 10th level fighter with a str of 18, weapon focus, and a +2 sword would have such a chance. Not every character is a fighter with a +2 sword, the right feats, and max strength however. Even then, I don't consider hitting half the time to be hitting "consistantly". A +17 against an AC 27 is only a chance? That's a 50/50 hit chance without any other special modifiers. in my experience, that's pretty consistant. I'm not saying that dragons are as easy to hit as, say, a naked kobold tied up to a tree, jsut that their AC is not much of an issue for more adventurers. Originally posted by Bino I think Mage Armor and Shield on top of a 27 AC is about all I would need to whip a level 10 party's butt, personally. That would make me what, AC 38 if I played my shield right? No level 10 character is going to hit AC 38 save natural 20. AC 35, actually. But, yeah, that could help. That's just the ONLY way 3 levels of sorcerer could really halp a dragon. What else is he going to do, pelt them with 2 magic missiles a round in lien of his breathe weapon or physical attacks? The subseqquent problem of using this for defense only is that it is just not cost effective for the dragon to use, because the dragon's offense is just too good to ppass up. If the dragon had a few rounds to prep (which honestly happens more than not), the levels of sorcerer are worth a little bit. But if the dragon is caught unaware (which is possible if the party is smart), the levels of sorcere is literally worthles, simply because no intelligent dragon would waste a round of his superior offense to boost his defense by only a bit. Originally posted by Bino I'm not sure what you mean. Does Frightful Presence hinder spellcasters? Maybe I need to go back and read that Shaken descriptor. No, you need to read what classes have good Will saves. Try good Will hunting (HA! HA! I kill me!!). Melee classes typically have poor will saves and thus are more likely to suffer the effects of Frightful Presence than a spellcaster, who all have good Will saves. A Shaken spellcaster is honestly just as bad off as a Shaken melee character, its just that a melee character is MUCH more likely to suffer those effects. Originally posted by Bino What I eventually did was award the character xp from a CR 11 encounter. The encounter was pretty much a draw. The party was beat down, but the dragon took a lot of damage and might have actually went down on a couple more lucky hits. The fighter was hitting on average once per round and some of those were crits thanks to his keen sword and improved crit feat. The sorceror was chunking lightning bolts left and right, some of them getting through the SR and even with the dragon's save he was taking pretty decent damage. The swashbuckler went Total Defense to absorb some of the dragon's attacks, after which only his bite attack could consistantly hit her. Before long however, the party was engaged in a fighting retreat, most of their potions were consumed. The dragon is smart, so he wasn't going to press the attack and go down like a chump to a couple of lucky counterblows. He flew off and lives to fight another day. Now, when the party meets him again, he will no doubt be ready to counter their attack unless they really change their strategy. Now THAT will probably be a CR 12 or 13 encounter! Actually, if it ended in a draw, that would more mean that the actual CR is probably about 2 or so above, the "average BBEG" fight. And just for the record, CR does not change, that's a change in EL. EL is a consideration of the additional factors that would change how difficult of the encounter is. Example, a hydra in a field at range is an easy encounter; that same hydra in a cramped tunnel with no chance for the PC's to manuever is much harder encounter.
chonjurer 10-07-03, 01:53 PM	They stated in Dragon magazine sometime that the dragons were all about 3-4 CRs too high, because they assumed that parties would be running into them fully prepared and decked out for that single encounter. If it is a surprise attack, then the CRs are way too high. If not, then they are about right.
d_nychus 10-07-03, 02:11 PM	Originally posted by chonjurer They stated in Dragon magazine sometime that the dragons were all about 3-4 CRs too high, because they assumed that parties would be running into them fully prepared and decked out for that single encounter. If it is a surprise attack, then the CRs are way too high. If not, then they are about right. Forgive me if I think that statement is utterly insane. Even if the party is at full, a dragon will always be a fight of a life time. NO #&(%ing way.
bitnine 10-07-03, 02:17 PM	Originally posted by d_nychus Forgive me if I think that statement is utterly insane. Even if the party is at full, a dragon will always be a fight of a life time. NO #&(%ing way. You might also realize that playing dragons very well and very intelligently may be the exception and not the rule. If you aren't going to have the dragon be as dumb as a sack of doorknobs, that might increase the EL by a few notches. Then again, dragons are now in the random encounter tables, so assuming that you should set the CR to accurately reflect a well-prepared party fighting a dragon who took the short bus to dragon school might not be the best choice. Random encounters with dragons. That's harsh. Especially if you play a dragon very well and realize its likeliness to spot the party long before they spot it. I would probably severely brutalize a party of the appropriate CR given such a situation.
edsonaoki 10-07-03, 02:50 PM	Really, I don't understand the fuss about dragon CRs... they were a bit low on 3.0, but they seem perfectly fine on 3.0. What's the point of the commonly used argument? "Dragons' CR are only balanced if you don't use their full potential and genius behavior". What "full potential" and "genius behavior"? Maybe you are talking about great wyrms, but consider an average dragon, such as an adult black dragon. The creature has an intelligence only slightly higher than an average human, weak breath weapon, weak spell resistance, almost useless damage reduction and spells (cast spells as a 3rd-level sorcerer? come on...). Frightful presence is good, but basically only gives some penalties on some characters. The only real threat are the physical attacks, but by using them, the creature easilly gets surrounded by the party and is quickly eliminated.
bitnine 10-07-03, 03:20 PM	Originally posted by edsonaoki What "full potential" and "genius behavior"? Maybe you are talking about great wyrms, but consider an average dragon, such as an adult black dragon. Well, black dragons do have a note on tactics: Black dragons prefer to ambush their targets, using their surroundings as cover. When fighting in heavily forested swamps and marshes, they try to stay in the water or on the ground; trees and leafy canopies limit their aerial maneuverability. When outmatched, a black dragon attempts to fly out of sight, so as not to leave tracks, and hide in a deep pond or bog. Many times, though, dragons show up and fight to the death without retreating. That's not really the actions of a creature that wants to stay alive. A black dragon, for example, might skirmish a bit if surprised, but then toss down some darkness, retreat, become invisible (with expeditious retreat) and sneak back to, say, grapple a spellcaster and drag him off. Black dragons have hide and move silently as class skills because their kind favors ambushes and stealth. If there's water nearby, the notes made about the danger of a dragon grappling and taking a party member underwater are very applicable; black dragons have Water Breathing and function quite well underwater, including being able to use their breath weapon unimpeded while submerged. (Snatch and drag into water that's been Corrupted is probably a favored tactic.) None of these require superhuman genius to enact. They are the common tactics of black dragons, and not particularly demanding in the intellect department. It's just their natural fighting style. Many people instead have them show up and go toe-to-toe with a party like a Troll might, and that's not entirely accurate to their behavior.
Tae Kwon Dan 10-07-03, 03:26 PM	Actually, always fighting to the death is not the behaviour of any species that wants to survive. Be it Troll, Dragon, or Bear.
bitnine 10-07-03, 03:52 PM	Originally posted by Tae Kwon Dan Actually, always fighting to the death is not the behaviour of any species that wants to survive. Be it Troll, Dragon, or Bear. Fair enough. I just meant that a Dragon would probably be far more aware of when it's time to leave and when it's getting in over its head, whereas a Troll might not have the best tactical mind and perhaps even acts a little rashly when attacking. I'm sure they don't mean to fight to the(ir) death, poor Trolls.
d_nychus 10-07-03, 04:16 PM	Originally posted by bitnine You might also realize that playing dragons very well and very intelligently may be the exception and not the rule. If you aren't going to have the dragon be as dumb as a sack of doorknobs, that might increase the EL by a few notches. Then again, dragons are now in the random encounter tables, so assuming that you should set the CR to accurately reflect a well-prepared party fighting a dragon who took the short bus to dragon school might not be the best choice. Random encounters with dragons. That's harsh. Especially if you play a dragon very well and realize its likeliness to spot the party long before they spot it. I would probably severely brutalize a party of the appropriate CR given such a situation. Maybe that is the case with playing a dragon intelligently, but, come on, the sheer stats of the dragon are too high for most of the CR's that are given. Even if you run the dragon as a pounce and charge monster, the amount of damage and spell cost ot the PC's is by far too huge to be an equitable encounter. A CR 11 black dragon, even with its basic abilities and no planning seems to in reality be a CR 13 AT LEAST. To everyone else, remember, a equal CR is supposed to be a fairly easy encounter, one that does not put the PC's into extreme risk unless they do something foolish. I find that merely FACING a dragon at the listed CR reccomendation puts the party into extreme danger. Yes, the CR's for dragons are way too low both in 3.0 and 3.5.
Tae Kwon Dan 10-07-03, 04:18 PM	Originally posted by bitnine Fair enough. I just meant that a Dragon would probably be far more aware of when it's time to leave and when it's getting in over its head, whereas a Troll might not have the best tactical mind and perhaps even acts a little rashly when attacking. I'm sure they don't mean to fight to the(ir) death, poor Trolls. I meant my post more as a tandem to your post. But unfortunately most DM's do run their monsters in a way that makes me think they might go "who's Charles Darwin?" ;)
bitnine 10-07-03, 04:37 PM	Originally posted by Tae Kwon Dan I meant my post more as a tandem to your post. But unfortunately most DM's do run their monsters in a way that makes me think they might go "who's Charles Darwin?" ;) I know. :) I see these monsters and NPCs and what not rush up and hack hack hack and cast cast cast until they drop drop drop, and I think to myself, "You know, maybe it's just me, but I must like living a little bit more than they do." Here's a dragon who's lived for 100 years by his strength and cunning, a native of this land who knows the best places to ambush and fight from. And what do some DMs have him do (not talking about the OP)? Wander on up and attack. Maybe that is the case with playing a dragon intelligently, but, come on, the sheer stats of the dragon are too high for most of the CR's that are given. Even if you run the dragon as a pounce and charge monster, the amount of damage and spell cost ot the PC's is by far too huge to be an equitable encounter. A CR 11 black dragon, even with its basic abilities and no planning seems to in reality be a CR 13 AT LEAST. If you mean that they take up, even in their sack of doorknobs fighting style, more than 25% of the party's resources, I agree entirely. If you believe that CR should actually represent the challenge that a creature represents and don't like the idea of something being "tough for its CR," then yes, you probably should knock up the CR a bit. Seriously, if I ran this dragon as realistically and mercilessly as they, by the book, should be portrayed, this situation would have most likely been a TPK. I think the OP foresaw the same thing and did some on-the-fly nerfing in order to make sure that his players could - well, not defeat the creature, but at least live.
edsonaoki 10-07-03, 08:36 PM	Many times, though, dragons show up and fight to the death without retreating. That's not really the actions of a creature that wants to stay alive. When the enemy retreats, the party wins the encounter and gains XP normally. So "knowing when to retreat" is not reason to increase the CR of a creature. A black dragon, for example, might skirmish a bit if surprised, but then toss down some darkness, retreat, become invisible (with expeditious retreat) and sneak back to, say, grapple a spellcaster and drag him off. Black dragons have hide and move silently as class skills because their kind favors ambushes and stealth. Assuming the party does nothing except to observe the dragon, of course. But a 11th-level party can do hundreds of damage on a single round. The dragon certainly wouldn´t lose combat rounds casting spells like darkness and invisibility, that can be dispelled effortless and allow the party to massacrate it on the mean time. Much less he will attempt to grapple foes instead of killing them as fast as possible, and possibly he won´t attempt to retreat while engaged on melee combat (3-4 attacks of opportunity hurt) None of these require superhuman genius to enact. Neither someone is required to be a dragon to use intelligent tactics.
bitnine 10-07-03, 08:59 PM	Yeah. Just saying. TPK. I think there are threads and web sites and the like on dragons that don't suck. If you really think that a dragon would really suck it up hard against a party... Well, I'd speak to them.
PhaedrusXY 10-07-03, 09:34 PM	Originally posted by edsonaoki When the enemy retreats, the party wins the encounter and gains XP normally. So "knowing when to retreat" is not reason to increase the CR of a creature.So if the dragon grabs one of them and flys off and kills him/her, then comes back hours later for another victim, you give the party XP each time it does this? That is ambush/guerilla tactics, and that is what bitnine was talking about I'm pretty sure. (sorry if I'm putting words into your mouth bitnine) Assuming the party does nothing except to observe the dragon, of course. But a 11th-level party can do hundreds of damage on a single round. The dragon certainly wouldn´t lose combat rounds casting spells like darkness and invisibility, that can be dispelled effortless and allow the party to massacrate it on the mean time.No, it would use it's superior mobility, intellect, and senses to either A) See them first (or detect them via alarm spells, etc) and cast it's pre-combat buffs or B) Fly away and buff itself in safety, then immediatly come back and kill them. Much less he will attempt to grapple foes instead of killing them as fast as possible, and possibly he won´t attempt to retreat while engaged on melee combat (3-4 attacks of opportunity hurt) Flyby attack allows a dragon to swoop by, make an attack (grapple), then fly away without taking a single attack of opportunity. Any dragon worth his salt will have this feat. Also, grappling DOES do damage! It's not like he's just gently holding them in his claws or teeth. Standard tactics for the next round would be making another pass and breathing on the party, while crushing it's victim. Oh, and if the dragon puts the grapple victim in it's mouth, he or she gets no saving throw vs. it's breath weapon. So the dragon can fly by the party with the poor grappled individual in it's mouth and breathe on them all, and the grapple victim takes full damage with no save. Or, if it's one of the types of dragons who can breathe water, drowing it's victim is a common tactic. These dragons are also fond of just partially exposing themselves and breathing on any idiots dense enough to get near the pool they're in, grabbing a victim, and then ducking back under the water. All of this stuff is in the Monster Manual in the section on dragons, and they even give little descriptions of common tactics for each type of dragon. This is the way dragons are supposed to be played. Are you just trolling here to see how many responses you can get because it amuses you, or what?
the_heart 10-08-03, 06:08 AM	just spotted this and thought i'd add my opinion. whilst all your arguments are valid, i am of the view that dragons should be way and above tougher than the average critter, the best way to reflect that is to lower it's CR from where it should be. otherwise it's just a 'normal' monster. then again i would never use a dragon as a random encounter. nor would i use a dragon of a CR less than the party level. i should point out that a large part of my agreeing with the CR's is that in all previous editions dragons were rather under-powered. and that, to me, was just WRONG... after all dragons are supposed to be top of the food chain, right? Players often feel invulnerable, and because of that their characters often show a lack of respect to all monsters...If nothing else, i can say my players show dragons a healthy respect, something it is hard to get them to roleplay sometimes. EDIT: play em smart and play em mean.........
edsonaoki 10-08-03, 08:43 AM	So if the dragon grabs one of them and flys off and kills him/her, then comes back hours later for another victim, you give the party XP each time it does this? That is ambush/guerilla tactics, and that is what bitnine was talking about I'm pretty sure. (sorry if I'm putting words into your mouth bitnine) It won't happen, because an adult black dragon doesn't qualify for the Snatch feat. No, it would use it's superior mobility, intellect, and senses to either A) See them first (or detect them via alarm spells, etc) and cast it's pre-combat buffs or B) Fly away and buff itself in safety, then immediatly come back and kill them. Pre-cast combat buffs? That last 3 minutes or so? That can be dispelled with almost 100% chance? And again, why an INT 12 dragon should be always considered to be 100% prepared for any encounter and a 11th-level party, which has access to MUCH better divination spells than alarm (and probably much more information due to social interactions), shouldn't? Why ANY other monster that isn't a dragon shouldn't? Flyby attack allows a dragon to swoop by, make an attack (grapple), then fly away without taking a single attack of opportunity. Any dragon worth his salt will have this feat. Also, grappling DOES do damage! It's not like he's just gently holding them in his claws or teeth. Flyby attack doesn't negate attacks of opportunity. But it doesn't matter since an adult black dragon can't snatch a victim. In the rest of your text you assume that the dragon is snatching the victim so I won't go on further detail. Are you just trolling here to see how many responses you can get because it amuses you, or what? I don't know, but I at least don't have the habit of calling "troll" anyone who disagrees with me.
bitnine 10-08-03, 09:21 AM	Originally posted by edsonaoki It won't happen, because an adult black dragon doesn't qualify for the Snatch feat. You know that any creature in a grapple can move the grapple (and all combatants thereof) at half speed by making a successful grapple check against each of them, right?
Chobemaster 10-08-03, 09:45 AM	Originally posted by edsonaoki When the enemy retreats, the party wins the encounter and gains XP normally. So "knowing when to retreat" is not reason to increase the CR of a creature. that's too absolute. It depends on what the "challenge" is...what is the REASON the party and dragon are in conflict. If the party has to drive off the dragon to protect the village, and it doesn't return to risk the party's wrath (unlikely) then yes, award XP. If the dragon is just a wandering monster, and the challenge is just to get away, award XP, but not full, because the CR of THIS challenge is much less than that of killing the dragon. If the party is supposed to kill the dragon to take its head to the king, then they have NOT overcome the challenge and should get NO XP.
edsonaoki 10-08-03, 09:59 AM	You know that any creature in a grapple can move the grapple (and all combatants thereof) at half speed by making a successful grapple check against each of them, right? Yes, and you know that a grapple check and moving an grapple require an attack action and a standard action respectively, so there is no way you can do that with a flyby attack. In fact, grappling a target and moving it will require at least 2 rounds, which will draw attacks of opportunity. Plus, 75 ft. of movement is not enough for the dragon to escape the party's ranged attacks and spells. If you suppose that the party will spend 3 combat rounds only looking at the dragon without doing anything else, then it's a good tactic.
bitnine 10-08-03, 10:11 AM	Originally posted by edsonaoki If you suppose that the party will spend 3 combat rounds only looking at the dragon without doing anything else, then it's a good tactic. Of course. That's exactly what I said. I propose that the party would be entraced by the black dragon's 1337ness and stand there in awe as it ate them one by one. I certainly didn't suggest that it come in invisible and use its surprise round to start a grapple so that it could fly off on its initiative. Because that would be stupid when it could just tell the rest of the party to sit there. 75 feet upward isn't enough to escape ranged attacks and spells. If they can bring the dragon down in one round, power to them. You'll note that ranged attacks, though, have a 50/50 of hitting their ally instead.
edsonaoki 10-08-03, 10:59 AM	Of course. That's exactly what I said. I propose that the party would be entraced by the black dragon's 1337ness and stand there in awe as it ate them one by one. Please, explain me how having -2 on attacks, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks makes you unable to do anything for 3 combat rounds. Not even counting that paladins are immune to this effect, and anyone near him has +4 on its saving throws. I certainly didn't suggest that it come in invisible and use its surprise round to start a grapple so that it could fly off on its initiative. Because that would be stupid when it could just tell the rest of the party to sit there. Well, if you are supposing that every dragon will have invisibilityl, then you may suppose that every party prepared to face a dragon will carry a see invisibility spell, that lasts 10 times more than invisibility. As I already said, being a dragon doesn't make you smarter than every other possible being of the world. 75 feet upward isn't enough to escape ranged attacks and spells. If they can bring the dragon down in one round, power to them. You'll note that ranged attacks, though, have a 50/50 of hitting their ally instead. And why do you think that only the dragon is capable of doing intelligent things? Dimension door or teleport the grappled victim before the dragon rises. If the grappled victim is a wizard, he can do it by himself, since both spells require only V components. Cast ray of enfeeblement on the dragon to reduce its STR to 15 or like, making him unable to carry his victim. Or simply kill him with damage; the dragon isn't doing anything except attempting to move the victim, which is an standard action. If the party members have ways of flying (and certainly a 11th-level party will provide it if it intends to fight a dragon), then it's one less thing to worry.
SerpentMage 10-09-03, 04:44 AM	Dimension door or teleport the grappled victim before the dragon rises. If the grappled victim is a wizard, he can do it by himself, since both spells require only V components. There is still the problem of the Concentration check to cast in a grapple (DC 20 + the spell level)...even with Skill Focus (Concentration), that is a non-trivial task at level 10 (or, especially, in the stated example of lvl 8 characters). DC 24/25 is actually rather difficult for a level 10 PC under normal circumstances. That's why rings of freedom of movement are so nice... P.S. - DD and Teleport, both being touch spells, would only be beneficial if you can actually reach the grappled individual.
edsonaoki 10-09-03, 08:02 AM	There is still the problem of the Concentration check to cast in a grapple (DC 20 + the spell level)...even with Skill Focus (Concentration), that is a non-trivial task at level 10 (or, especially, in the stated example of lvl 8 characters). DC 24/25 is actually rather difficult for a level 10 PC under normal circumstances. Actually my example is with level 11 characters, which is the CR of an adult lack dragon. An 11th-level would have a +16/+17 conc. check (more with Skill Focus or Combat Casting), which gives more than 50% chance of casting dimension door or teleport. P.S. - DD and Teleport, both being touch spells, would only be beneficial if you can actually reach the grappled individual. I was talking about the time the dragon is still in the ground (at least 1 round). In fact, there are thousands of ways to deal with this situation (druid wildshape into a polar bear (STR much greater than the dragon) and join the grapple, cleric uses the Strenght domain power. Anyway, my whole point is that isn't correct to calculate dragons' CR basing on the argueable assumption that a INT 12 dragon that knows a few 1st-2nd level spells is a malicious genius that knows everything beforehand and is prepared for every possible situations, while a 11th-level party is always dumb, never knows what is going to fight, is always caught unaware and surprised, despite having powerful divination and illusion spells, and being able to gather information much more efficiently.
Xavim 10-10-03, 03:22 AM	Why exactly does an adult Black not have access to Snatch? THis is 3.0 and in 3 there is no prerequisit to the snatch feat. Generally Dragons should be played as the insurmountable bad*****es they really are. You give me any 10th-11th level party and I'll kill them with my Adult Black. Dragons played properly are just straight mean.
Arcanum_and_Obscura 10-10-03, 03:25 PM	In 3.5 you need to be huge size or larger as a prereq for the snatch feat. But either way it acts as improved grab so grapple rules still apply though the dragon can do some additional damage if the victim is 3-4 sizes smaller.
edsonaoki 10-10-03, 10:47 PM	Generally Dragons should be played as the insurmountable bad*****es they really are. You give me any 10th-11th level party and I'll kill them with my Adult Black. Dragons played properly are just straight mean. If I´m the DM, give me ANY monster or NPC and I can do whatever I want to the party with it.