Ape questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ape questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lanoitakude
07-31-07, 04:05 AM Hello, I'm sure there have been several threads concerning the armor/weapon capabilities of the Ape, but my search for some was fruitless.

My question is: If a druid has an Ape animal companion, and said Ape gains HD enough to give him a feat, can that Ape take Simple Weapon Prof?

If there is a thread already devoted to this discussion, please point me in the right direction.

Thank you in advance.
Return of the Flumph
07-31-07, 04:28 AM Yes.

Read Congo by Michael Creighton.
runestar
07-31-07, 07:45 AM In a nutshell, yes, because nothing expressly prohibits an animal from taking feats like weapon/armour proficiency. Some DMs might have problems with it, though that is more a personal issue to be ironed our in your own gametime, rather than any perceived flaw in the rules.:)
Talisman
07-31-07, 11:00 AM Yes.

Read Congo by Michael Creighton.

That's Critchton, you flumphish so-and-so! :P
Lanoitakude
07-31-07, 02:24 PM Thanks for the responses.

I have not read the book, only seen the movie. My only reaction to the film was, "Did that monkey just make a metaphor?"

This sort of question seems like the perfect topic for The Sage to tackle.

So it seems that the answer to the Ape questsions is just: there is nothing explicitly in the rules to disallow it, but it should be put past the DM for approval.

I'm perfectly happy with that answer.

Thanks again.
Talisman
07-31-07, 02:33 PM Given that chimpanzees have been observed making and using spears, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear#History) I think it should definitely be allowed.
Wauthan
07-31-07, 03:04 PM If I was the DM I would be somewhat leery of giving an animal companion such an advantage without also giving it a balancing flaw. A few chimpanzees might use crude spears to kill a cornered prey but that's not the same thing as knowing how to use it well in a fight.

Use simple weapons? Yes. Allow Simple weapon proficiency feat? No. I would rule that an ape, even a supernatural one, doesn't have the anatomy nor the mindset needed to make proficient use of humanoid weapons. If the player was really persistent I guess I could allow the companion to take a special feat that made it proficient in a few custom made exotic weapons.
ADHadh
07-31-07, 03:30 PM I think that an animal companion ape, watching his humanoid friend using weapons, should be allowed the proficiency. Chimpanzees learn by mimicking other apes, so I think that would perfectly possible.
Armor proficiency on the other hand is way too far.
JackSnape
07-31-07, 08:26 PM You could give it a -2 penalty as the weapons were made for a different species, this would be a -6 without proficiency and -2 with the proficiency.
Short of weapon proficiency you could make the Druid teach the ape 1 weapon as a trick, thus maxing him out at about 4 weapons.
OneWinged4ngel
07-31-07, 08:49 PM I'll try to shed a bit of light on this...

Trained apes can *absolutely* use weapons (and many other tools a human can use, for that matter). There's no reason not to allow it. In fact, there's little reason not to stick them with 4 or 5 int or so and let them learn languages and such, except for the existing rules standard to make all animals have only 1 or 2 int.

Experiments have shown that real apes raised like human children can actually do pretty much all the basic things human children can do. They can talk (although they're limited to sign language to communicate with humans, because they can't actually say words), they can use tools, and they can reason. Heck, there's even one ape that was trained to be a karate expert (which was featured on Ripley's believe it or not).

A few chimpanzees might use crude spears to kill a cornered prey but that's not the same thing as knowing how to use it well in a fight.

That's like saying that humans who only make crude spears (like some of the less technologically advanced hunter-gatherer tribes in the world that are largely isolated from "modern" society) don't actually have the capability to learn to use more complex items because their culture's technology is primitive.

Don't confuse a lack of advanced culture with a lack of intellectual capability.

Also, as I just mentioned, an ape has been able to master a martial art in real life, which would rather directly counteract your claim. In fact, he has innovated some of his own moves to better take advantage of his unique body (for example, he is able to use feet like hands).

Edit: Found a video clip of said ape online: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7148662951668750857

The thing is, it's perfectly reasonable from a REAL LIFE perspective for apes to have a higher int score than they do, and indeed for them to be able to take class levels. People just don't really like to think that, because they like to think they are utterly above and separate from animals.

Furthermore, we're talking about a fantasy setting here where druid and rangers have an intrinsic bond with animals. If a normal human can teach an ape to do these things, consider the capabilities of those who can speak with animals and the like!

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u211/SatinFist/Sephiroth.gif
Wauthan
08-01-07, 05:55 AM I'll try to shed a bit of light on this...

Errh... Hmmm? You obviously have a lot of respect for our fellow simians, which I heartily agree with, but don't you think your going a bit overboard here? Comparing chimpanzees to humans doesn't do either of our species any favors. Apes, true to their own form of intelligence, don't have culture, language nor the ability to teach (they very able to learn however). This is because they never needed these abilities to survive.

Ape sign language is still a very controversial subject, despite years of research, and every independant study have so far shown that the apes either respond to specific cues or simply "speak" nonsense. There's a very clear bias involved that "humanizes" apes, and that is not a good thing.

Apes, chimpanzees and bonobos in particular, can be trained to do incredible things. As can just about any animal, cared for by a dedicated handler. But this doesn't mean that they are able to reason. Humans teach them a routine that they perform on cue, for a reward (or lack of punishment, as is sadly the case), but nothing I've seen indicates that they know why they are doing it.

And as for training apes in martial arts, I'm sure you're joking. The man is an entertainer, and the chimp has been trained to imitate human moves. He, the chimp that is, won't actually do a roundhouse kick in your face if he gets ****** off. He'll fight like any other chimp, which will be a lot more effective to say the least. And from what I've read the handful of "spear users" don't actually use them for fighting or even hunting, they use it to fish out prey that is hiding inside logs or burrows. Angry chimpanzees have smashed, punched and bitten humans, but never clobbered or speared them.

I consider myself neither separate nor connected to other organisms in the biosphere. I prefer to think that we all are milling about together, each doing our own thing, while stuck in the same boat on a seemingly endless ocean. And please don't mix fantasy and real life into the same argument. The explanation "a wizard did it" can't be argued for or against, making it a pretty frustrating ingredient in a debate.

Best regards,
Wauthan
TheCarrionCrawler
08-01-07, 07:46 AM Hello, I'm sure there have been several threads concerning the armor/weapon capabilities of the Ape, but my search for some was fruitless.

My question is: If a druid has an Ape animal companion, and said Ape gains HD enough to give him a feat, can that Ape take Simple Weapon Prof?

If there is a thread already devoted to this discussion, please point me in the right direction.

Thank you in advance.

My god man! Don't let it start! First it's simple weapon proficiency, then it's their ride skill maxed, then it's Planet of the Apes! Corupt orangutans! Statue of Liberty on the beach! Worshiping a nuclear bomb! Complete anarchy!!!!!
Suavo
08-01-07, 10:03 AM As was stated previously I would say it would be up to your DM. Now as a DM I would tell you that your ape lacks the mental capacity to proficiently weild even a simple weapon. ("Do you know how to use that?" "Sure... the pointy end goes into the other man.") However if your character could find a way to raise his animal companions int up to a sufficiant level I would allow it but with an agreement that the player keeps the apes limitations in mind, as funny as Carrion's comment is I know players who if left unchecked would have apes with sevral ranks in the ride skill and mounted archery.
OneWinged4ngel
08-03-07, 03:58 PM Ape sign language is still a very controversial subject, despite years of research, and every independant study have so far shown that the apes either respond to specific cues or simply "speak" nonsense. There's a very clear bias involved that "humanizes" apes, and that is not a good thing. A good point. However, the issue at hand is whether you can give apes a martial proficiency. The fact that there's a black belt chimp out there would seem to present strong evidence for saying "yes, you can do that."

Apes, chimpanzees and bonobos in particular, can be trained to do incredible things. As can just about any animal, cared for by a dedicated handler. But this doesn't mean that they are able to reason. Humans teach them a routine that they perform on cue, for a reward (or lack of punishment, as is sadly the case), but nothing I've seen indicates that they know why they are doing it. Oddly, I've found that many, many humans can be described in those exact terms. Why is that something that seperates humans from apes? o.0

And please don't mix fantasy and real life into the same argument. The explanation "a wizard did it" can't be argued for or against, making it a pretty frustrating ingredient in a debate.

Huh?! If there's going to be a discussion about whether something is plausible, then establishing that such is possible in reality would definitely indicate that it is plausible enough for fantasy. Moreover, fantasy is based on reality, and having a grounding in reality or at least realism increases verisimilitude and supports suspension of disbelief. What the heck are you talking about?

And what's wrong with a wizard doing it? Wizards do it all the time in D&D. That's what the Wizard class is there for.
Asra
08-03-07, 04:16 PM Recently, they've had a monkey controlling a robotic arm on the science channel around here, it knew what it was doing, since it eventually stopped moving its actual arm all together and simply fed itself mentally, with the robotic limb.
Terraneaux
08-03-07, 05:06 PM I'd also like to add that ravens are capable of reason-they can look at a situation in which they will have to do a series of tasks which have no indivudual reward but which will grant the food when done in the right sequence, consider it for a few minutes, and then do the process once, successfully. Furthermore, older and more experienced ravens are more capable of this activity, perhaps indicating that they *learn* this behavior over time.

Plus, this is DnD. Gorillas wearing full plate and using falchions? Sign me up!
OneWinged4ngel
08-04-07, 12:34 AM Plus, this is DnD. Gorillas wearing full plate and using falchions? Sign me up!

Seriously. If Congo (and a million other fictional stories) can do it, why can't D&D?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lanoitakude 07-31-07, 04:05 AM	Hello, I'm sure there have been several threads concerning the armor/weapon capabilities of the Ape, but my search for some was fruitless. My question is: If a druid has an Ape animal companion, and said Ape gains HD enough to give him a feat, can that Ape take Simple Weapon Prof? If there is a thread already devoted to this discussion, please point me in the right direction. Thank you in advance.
Return of the Flumph 07-31-07, 04:28 AM	Yes. Read Congo by Michael Creighton.
runestar 07-31-07, 07:45 AM	In a nutshell, yes, because nothing expressly prohibits an animal from taking feats like weapon/armour proficiency. Some DMs might have problems with it, though that is more a personal issue to be ironed our in your own gametime, rather than any perceived flaw in the rules.:)
Talisman 07-31-07, 11:00 AM	Yes. Read Congo by Michael Creighton. That's Critchton, you flumphish so-and-so! :P
Lanoitakude 07-31-07, 02:24 PM	Thanks for the responses. I have not read the book, only seen the movie. My only reaction to the film was, "Did that monkey just make a metaphor?" This sort of question seems like the perfect topic for The Sage to tackle. So it seems that the answer to the Ape questsions is just: there is nothing explicitly in the rules to disallow it, but it should be put past the DM for approval. I'm perfectly happy with that answer. Thanks again.
Talisman 07-31-07, 02:33 PM	Given that chimpanzees have been observed making and using spears, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear#History) I think it should definitely be allowed.
Wauthan 07-31-07, 03:04 PM	If I was the DM I would be somewhat leery of giving an animal companion such an advantage without also giving it a balancing flaw. A few chimpanzees might use crude spears to kill a cornered prey but that's not the same thing as knowing how to use it well in a fight. Use simple weapons? Yes. Allow Simple weapon proficiency feat? No. I would rule that an ape, even a supernatural one, doesn't have the anatomy nor the mindset needed to make proficient use of humanoid weapons. If the player was really persistent I guess I could allow the companion to take a special feat that made it proficient in a few custom made exotic weapons.
ADHadh 07-31-07, 03:30 PM	I think that an animal companion ape, watching his humanoid friend using weapons, should be allowed the proficiency. Chimpanzees learn by mimicking other apes, so I think that would perfectly possible. Armor proficiency on the other hand is way too far.
JackSnape 07-31-07, 08:26 PM	You could give it a -2 penalty as the weapons were made for a different species, this would be a -6 without proficiency and -2 with the proficiency. Short of weapon proficiency you could make the Druid teach the ape 1 weapon as a trick, thus maxing him out at about 4 weapons.
OneWinged4ngel 07-31-07, 08:49 PM	I'll try to shed a bit of light on this... Trained apes can absolutely use weapons (and many other tools a human can use, for that matter). There's no reason not to allow it. In fact, there's little reason not to stick them with 4 or 5 int or so and let them learn languages and such, except for the existing rules standard to make all animals have only 1 or 2 int. Experiments have shown that real apes raised like human children can actually do pretty much all the basic things human children can do. They can talk (although they're limited to sign language to communicate with humans, because they can't actually say words), they can use tools, and they can reason. Heck, there's even one ape that was trained to be a karate expert (which was featured on Ripley's believe it or not). A few chimpanzees might use crude spears to kill a cornered prey but that's not the same thing as knowing how to use it well in a fight. That's like saying that humans who only make crude spears (like some of the less technologically advanced hunter-gatherer tribes in the world that are largely isolated from "modern" society) don't actually have the capability to learn to use more complex items because their culture's technology is primitive. Don't confuse a lack of advanced culture with a lack of intellectual capability. Also, as I just mentioned, an ape has been able to master a martial art in real life, which would rather directly counteract your claim. In fact, he has innovated some of his own moves to better take advantage of his unique body (for example, he is able to use feet like hands). Edit: Found a video clip of said ape online: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7148662951668750857 The thing is, it's perfectly reasonable from a REAL LIFE perspective for apes to have a higher int score than they do, and indeed for them to be able to take class levels. People just don't really like to think that, because they like to think they are utterly above and separate from animals. Furthermore, we're talking about a fantasy setting here where druid and rangers have an intrinsic bond with animals. If a normal human can teach an ape to do these things, consider the capabilities of those who can speak with animals and the like! http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u211/SatinFist/Sephiroth.gif
Wauthan 08-01-07, 05:55 AM	I'll try to shed a bit of light on this... Errh... Hmmm? You obviously have a lot of respect for our fellow simians, which I heartily agree with, but don't you think your going a bit overboard here? Comparing chimpanzees to humans doesn't do either of our species any favors. Apes, true to their own form of intelligence, don't have culture, language nor the ability to teach (they very able to learn however). This is because they never needed these abilities to survive. Ape sign language is still a very controversial subject, despite years of research, and every independant study have so far shown that the apes either respond to specific cues or simply "speak" nonsense. There's a very clear bias involved that "humanizes" apes, and that is not a good thing. Apes, chimpanzees and bonobos in particular, can be trained to do incredible things. As can just about any animal, cared for by a dedicated handler. But this doesn't mean that they are able to reason. Humans teach them a routine that they perform on cue, for a reward (or lack of punishment, as is sadly the case), but nothing I've seen indicates that they know why they are doing it. And as for training apes in martial arts, I'm sure you're joking. The man is an entertainer, and the chimp has been trained to imitate human moves. He, the chimp that is, won't actually do a roundhouse kick in your face if he gets ****** off. He'll fight like any other chimp, which will be a lot more effective to say the least. And from what I've read the handful of "spear users" don't actually use them for fighting or even hunting, they use it to fish out prey that is hiding inside logs or burrows. Angry chimpanzees have smashed, punched and bitten humans, but never clobbered or speared them. I consider myself neither separate nor connected to other organisms in the biosphere. I prefer to think that we all are milling about together, each doing our own thing, while stuck in the same boat on a seemingly endless ocean. And please don't mix fantasy and real life into the same argument. The explanation "a wizard did it" can't be argued for or against, making it a pretty frustrating ingredient in a debate. Best regards, Wauthan
TheCarrionCrawler 08-01-07, 07:46 AM	Hello, I'm sure there have been several threads concerning the armor/weapon capabilities of the Ape, but my search for some was fruitless. My question is: If a druid has an Ape animal companion, and said Ape gains HD enough to give him a feat, can that Ape take Simple Weapon Prof? If there is a thread already devoted to this discussion, please point me in the right direction. Thank you in advance. My god man! Don't let it start! First it's simple weapon proficiency, then it's their ride skill maxed, then it's Planet of the Apes! Corupt orangutans! Statue of Liberty on the beach! Worshiping a nuclear bomb! Complete anarchy!!!!!
Suavo 08-01-07, 10:03 AM	As was stated previously I would say it would be up to your DM. Now as a DM I would tell you that your ape lacks the mental capacity to proficiently weild even a simple weapon. ("Do you know how to use that?" "Sure... the pointy end goes into the other man.") However if your character could find a way to raise his animal companions int up to a sufficiant level I would allow it but with an agreement that the player keeps the apes limitations in mind, as funny as Carrion's comment is I know players who if left unchecked would have apes with sevral ranks in the ride skill and mounted archery.
OneWinged4ngel 08-03-07, 03:58 PM	Ape sign language is still a very controversial subject, despite years of research, and every independant study have so far shown that the apes either respond to specific cues or simply "speak" nonsense. There's a very clear bias involved that "humanizes" apes, and that is not a good thing. A good point. However, the issue at hand is whether you can give apes a martial proficiency. The fact that there's a black belt chimp out there would seem to present strong evidence for saying "yes, you can do that." Apes, chimpanzees and bonobos in particular, can be trained to do incredible things. As can just about any animal, cared for by a dedicated handler. But this doesn't mean that they are able to reason. Humans teach them a routine that they perform on cue, for a reward (or lack of punishment, as is sadly the case), but nothing I've seen indicates that they know why they are doing it. Oddly, I've found that many, many humans can be described in those exact terms. Why is that something that seperates humans from apes? o.0 And please don't mix fantasy and real life into the same argument. The explanation "a wizard did it" can't be argued for or against, making it a pretty frustrating ingredient in a debate. Huh?! If there's going to be a discussion about whether something is plausible, then establishing that such is possible in reality would definitely indicate that it is plausible enough for fantasy. Moreover, fantasy is based on reality, and having a grounding in reality or at least realism increases verisimilitude and supports suspension of disbelief. What the heck are you talking about? And what's wrong with a wizard doing it? Wizards do it all the time in D&D. That's what the Wizard class is there for.
Asra 08-03-07, 04:16 PM	Recently, they've had a monkey controlling a robotic arm on the science channel around here, it knew what it was doing, since it eventually stopped moving its actual arm all together and simply fed itself mentally, with the robotic limb.
Terraneaux 08-03-07, 05:06 PM	I'd also like to add that ravens are capable of reason-they can look at a situation in which they will have to do a series of tasks which have no indivudual reward but which will grant the food when done in the right sequence, consider it for a few minutes, and then do the process once, successfully. Furthermore, older and more experienced ravens are more capable of this activity, perhaps indicating that they learn this behavior over time. Plus, this is DnD. Gorillas wearing full plate and using falchions? Sign me up!
OneWinged4ngel 08-04-07, 12:34 AM	Plus, this is DnD. Gorillas wearing full plate and using falchions? Sign me up! Seriously. If Congo (and a million other fictional stories) can do it, why can't D&D?