Ape size inconsistency? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ape size inconsistency? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
anoo
03-16-05, 05:53 PM I play a druid/ape lord in our current campaign, and have been forced into familiarizing myself with the ape/monkey/baboon set. I have a question, however - the Dire Ape is listed as a large animal (10ft/10ft face/reach), as is the normal ape. The Legendary Ape, however, is shown having 5ft/5ft face/reach. What is the reasoning behind this, since the Legendary is supposed to look almost exactly like a normal ape by the casual viewer (per the descriptive text). Which is correct? Why is a 5 1/2 - 6 foot tall creature (ape) listed as large? Have I just missed some errata somewhere? Thanks for any clarifications.
DM Zoc
03-16-05, 06:25 PM A legendary animal is just like the regular animal, only better. A dire animal is larger and more powerful than the regular animal.
Milkman Dan
03-16-05, 06:39 PM The legendary ape first showed up in Masters of the Wild, before Monster Manual II, where he was a Medium-size Animal. That might help explain this mistake --- I have a feeling it is a mistake.
Slagger the Chuul
03-17-05, 01:28 AM As DM_Zoc said, a legendary animal is different to a dire animal.

The dire animal is a creature that is naturally bigger, stronger, and more feral than an ordinary animal of its type.

The legendary animal is (by the original text in Masters of the Wild) an ordinary animal which has been shot full of nature's power so that it can serve as the companion of a high-level druid. Legendary animals are of smaller size by design, because really big animals are hard to keep around. Ever tried fitting a dire bear through a regular door?

I suspect that the legendary "ape" is actually based on the baboon, because it was more convenient to use a medium-size animal.
DM Zoc
03-17-05, 09:40 AM Now, just because it's fun, I'm going to point out that a regular "ape" from the 3.5 MM is a large animal (despite being only 6 feet tall).
anoo
03-17-05, 12:25 PM Exactly - I can see that size, though, since the ape moves on all fours and is pretty vicious about his territory. Covering a 30ft wide space with his threat area (10ft face with 10ft reach on both sides) is a bit of a stretch, still. That's been the issue all along. The text of the legendary states that he looks like the ape, but is stronger and faster. I guess 5ft face with a 10ft reach would be a little unbalancing, though. Now for my preference - I'd rather have a 5x5 stronger ape than the 10x10 ape. I can initiate lots more grapples that way, and spellcasters *hate* that. :D

I've got a regular "ape" as my primary companion, and he's tricky to get into some spots. I've worked around this using the simian speech and/or telepathy of the animal lord to convince him to shift with me using "share lesser form." He gets an hour per Ape Lord level in the alternate form that way, and he's much easier to carry around as a monkey. Now to get him a war horse and teach him to ride. If I could just get him to quit eating them.

Any DMs out there see a problem with this shifting tactic and/or training plan? (there's already a problem with the Ape Lord's "unlimited" shifting per day, but anything "unlimited" has always been a little broken)

Ok, so let's make this a little more complex: what's the range on the "share lesser form" while I'm on the subject? Masters of the Wild gives no range, just "allies." As a 7th level Ape Lord, I can sense and communicate telepathically with simians within 49 miles. Can I befriend them from that same range? Can I push them into actions from there? Can I "share lesser form" from that range? I can share their senses at that range, right? If I use a device that allows teleportation that far, can I spot out my area to remove chance of error? That all seems horribly broken. Have these been addressed somewhere else that I haven't found?
Slagger the Chuul
03-17-05, 12:56 PM Ok, so let's make this a little more complex: what's the range on the "share lesser form" while I'm on the subject? Masters of the Wild gives no range, just "allies." As a 7th level Ape Lord, I can sense and communicate telepathically with simians within 49 miles. Can I befriend them from that same range? Can I push them into actions from there? Can I "share lesser form" from that range? I can share their senses at that range, right? If I use a device that allows teleportation that far, can I spot out my area to remove chance of error? That all seems horribly broken. Have these been addressed somewhere else that I haven't found?

I don't know if there's a 3.5 version of the Animal Lord out, so I'll be referring to the Animal Lord from Masters of the Wild.

You'd use the normal range for each of the effects, since it doesn't say otherwise. "Animal Bond" is based on animal friendship, so use the range for animal friendship. "Share lesser form" is based on polymorph other, so use the polymorph other range.

If you're teleporting, you do so as if you had seen the location, with the familiarity level depending on how long you used the animal's sense. If you're using 3.0 rules, you can also teleport guided by a description given by the animal.

You can communicate with them and they have a friendly attitude towards you(thanks to your animal bond), so you should be able to ask them to do things. They're not dominated, but they will take risks to help you, like any creature with a friendly attitude.
Milkman Dan
03-17-05, 10:36 PM There's a 3.5 version of the Animal Lord in Complete Adventurer. However, it lacks the share lesser form ability of the Masters of the Wild's Animal Lord.
anoo
03-19-05, 10:40 PM Probably for the best, anyway - that unlimited sharing is kind of broken anyway. According to the "share lesser form" it functions as polymorph, which heals ("Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night."). This ability has been so abused to heal the party back up after each fight so often that it's ridiculous. Fast WildShape makes it doubly so. Unlimited anything is broken, it seems.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
anoo 03-16-05, 05:53 PM	I play a druid/ape lord in our current campaign, and have been forced into familiarizing myself with the ape/monkey/baboon set. I have a question, however - the Dire Ape is listed as a large animal (10ft/10ft face/reach), as is the normal ape. The Legendary Ape, however, is shown having 5ft/5ft face/reach. What is the reasoning behind this, since the Legendary is supposed to look almost exactly like a normal ape by the casual viewer (per the descriptive text). Which is correct? Why is a 5 1/2 - 6 foot tall creature (ape) listed as large? Have I just missed some errata somewhere? Thanks for any clarifications.
DM Zoc 03-16-05, 06:25 PM	A legendary animal is just like the regular animal, only better. A dire animal is larger and more powerful than the regular animal.
Milkman Dan 03-16-05, 06:39 PM	The legendary ape first showed up in Masters of the Wild, before Monster Manual II, where he was a Medium-size Animal. That might help explain this mistake --- I have a feeling it is a mistake.
Slagger the Chuul 03-17-05, 01:28 AM	As DM_Zoc said, a legendary animal is different to a dire animal. The dire animal is a creature that is naturally bigger, stronger, and more feral than an ordinary animal of its type. The legendary animal is (by the original text in Masters of the Wild) an ordinary animal which has been shot full of nature's power so that it can serve as the companion of a high-level druid. Legendary animals are of smaller size by design, because really big animals are hard to keep around. Ever tried fitting a dire bear through a regular door? I suspect that the legendary "ape" is actually based on the baboon, because it was more convenient to use a medium-size animal.
DM Zoc 03-17-05, 09:40 AM	Now, just because it's fun, I'm going to point out that a regular "ape" from the 3.5 MM is a large animal (despite being only 6 feet tall).
anoo 03-17-05, 12:25 PM	Exactly - I can see that size, though, since the ape moves on all fours and is pretty vicious about his territory. Covering a 30ft wide space with his threat area (10ft face with 10ft reach on both sides) is a bit of a stretch, still. That's been the issue all along. The text of the legendary states that he looks like the ape, but is stronger and faster. I guess 5ft face with a 10ft reach would be a little unbalancing, though. Now for my preference - I'd rather have a 5x5 stronger ape than the 10x10 ape. I can initiate lots more grapples that way, and spellcasters hate that. :D I've got a regular "ape" as my primary companion, and he's tricky to get into some spots. I've worked around this using the simian speech and/or telepathy of the animal lord to convince him to shift with me using "share lesser form." He gets an hour per Ape Lord level in the alternate form that way, and he's much easier to carry around as a monkey. Now to get him a war horse and teach him to ride. If I could just get him to quit eating them. Any DMs out there see a problem with this shifting tactic and/or training plan? (there's already a problem with the Ape Lord's "unlimited" shifting per day, but anything "unlimited" has always been a little broken) Ok, so let's make this a little more complex: what's the range on the "share lesser form" while I'm on the subject? Masters of the Wild gives no range, just "allies." As a 7th level Ape Lord, I can sense and communicate telepathically with simians within 49 miles. Can I befriend them from that same range? Can I push them into actions from there? Can I "share lesser form" from that range? I can share their senses at that range, right? If I use a device that allows teleportation that far, can I spot out my area to remove chance of error? That all seems horribly broken. Have these been addressed somewhere else that I haven't found?
Slagger the Chuul 03-17-05, 12:56 PM	Ok, so let's make this a little more complex: what's the range on the "share lesser form" while I'm on the subject? Masters of the Wild gives no range, just "allies." As a 7th level Ape Lord, I can sense and communicate telepathically with simians within 49 miles. Can I befriend them from that same range? Can I push them into actions from there? Can I "share lesser form" from that range? I can share their senses at that range, right? If I use a device that allows teleportation that far, can I spot out my area to remove chance of error? That all seems horribly broken. Have these been addressed somewhere else that I haven't found? I don't know if there's a 3.5 version of the Animal Lord out, so I'll be referring to the Animal Lord from Masters of the Wild. You'd use the normal range for each of the effects, since it doesn't say otherwise. "Animal Bond" is based on animal friendship, so use the range for animal friendship. "Share lesser form" is based on polymorph other, so use the polymorph other range. If you're teleporting, you do so as if you had seen the location, with the familiarity level depending on how long you used the animal's sense. If you're using 3.0 rules, you can also teleport guided by a description given by the animal. You can communicate with them and they have a friendly attitude towards you(thanks to your animal bond), so you should be able to ask them to do things. They're not dominated, but they will take risks to help you, like any creature with a friendly attitude.
Milkman Dan 03-17-05, 10:36 PM	There's a 3.5 version of the Animal Lord in Complete Adventurer. However, it lacks the share lesser form ability of the Masters of the Wild's Animal Lord.
anoo 03-19-05, 10:40 PM	Probably for the best, anyway - that unlimited sharing is kind of broken anyway. According to the "share lesser form" it functions as polymorph, which heals ("Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night."). This ability has been so abused to heal the party back up after each fight so often that it's ridiculous. Fast WildShape makes it doubly so. Unlimited anything is broken, it seems.