Applied Template - Monster Type Changes - What Happens? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Applied Template - Monster Type Changes - What Happens? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darth_Singe
07-15-07, 12:54 PM I am applying the Monster of legend Template to a 20th level character with the Vampire Template already added. My question is, since the creature's type has already changed to Undead, and the Monster of legend states that the creature's type changes to Outsider, what happens to the Undead type? Does he stop being undead, or does undead become a subtype, or does he just become an Undead Outsider?

Though, by strict interp of the rules, can I even add the Monster of legend to an Undead creature?
420
07-15-07, 01:12 PM Though, by strict interp of the rules, can I even add the Monster of legend to an Undead creature?

Nope.

Monster Manual II (pg. 213)
"Monster of Legend" is a template that can be added to any animal, beast, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid.

It's also highly unlikely that you'll be able to apply an undead template to an outsider.

-420
Darth_Singe
07-15-07, 01:25 PM Does this mean that an Outsider can not be an undead creature? I see in Deities and Demigods (Pg 95) that even Vecna is just an undead with Divine Rank 10
Dead_Weasel
07-15-07, 07:07 PM Actually it is fairly easy to convert an outsider to undead - the most basic types, skeleton and zombie, already cover that angle.

Vecna is a special case; since he was a lich before becoming a god, he is still undead. Most of the gods either started out as gods (and as outsiders) or were living mortals before becoming gods (were humanoid, became outsiders). Besides which, gods are exceptions to most of the normal rules, and frequently to their own. Giving the gods statistics blocks is an error in and of itself.

Although I am not certain of the integrity of the type pyramid as of 3.5 (in fact it is almost certainly defunct, since you can usually get around or through it with enough templates), converting an undead into an outsider is one of the harder ones. Not particularly significant, since the undead type is overwhelmingly superior.
Morwen
07-15-07, 11:18 PM Does this mean that an Outsider can not be an undead creature?

No, it just means that the particular templates you are referring to can't be applied to the given types.

I'm sure there are some Outsider-templates that can be added to Undead, and vice-versa, just not the Monster of Legend and Vampire ones :)
Darth_Singe
07-16-07, 05:52 PM Thanks fellers.

But, I cheated, and renamed the Monster of Legend template to Champion of ~Insert Homebrew Goddess-Demon Name Here~ and changed the little "Who it can be added to" part.

Why?

Cuz I'm the DM.

:)
Dead_Weasel
07-16-07, 09:00 PM That is, in fact, perfectly legitimate, and one of the uses of Rule 0 that I indulge in myself.
snakeman830
07-17-07, 10:48 AM It's like having an undead character that reaches tenth level of dragon disciple. Questions can come up around this. If their type changes to dragon, do they regain their Con score? Do they qualify for undead templates that can be added to dragons? Does their type even change?

Lots of questions and some bizzare results depending on your DM.

BTW, when creating opponenets, I love to invoke rule 0.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth_Singe 07-15-07, 12:54 PM	I am applying the Monster of legend Template to a 20th level character with the Vampire Template already added. My question is, since the creature's type has already changed to Undead, and the Monster of legend states that the creature's type changes to Outsider, what happens to the Undead type? Does he stop being undead, or does undead become a subtype, or does he just become an Undead Outsider? Though, by strict interp of the rules, can I even add the Monster of legend to an Undead creature?
420 07-15-07, 01:12 PM	Though, by strict interp of the rules, can I even add the Monster of legend to an Undead creature? Nope. Monster Manual II (pg. 213) "Monster of Legend" is a template that can be added to any animal, beast, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid. It's also highly unlikely that you'll be able to apply an undead template to an outsider. -420
Darth_Singe 07-15-07, 01:25 PM	Does this mean that an Outsider can not be an undead creature? I see in Deities and Demigods (Pg 95) that even Vecna is just an undead with Divine Rank 10
Dead_Weasel 07-15-07, 07:07 PM	Actually it is fairly easy to convert an outsider to undead - the most basic types, skeleton and zombie, already cover that angle. Vecna is a special case; since he was a lich before becoming a god, he is still undead. Most of the gods either started out as gods (and as outsiders) or were living mortals before becoming gods (were humanoid, became outsiders). Besides which, gods are exceptions to most of the normal rules, and frequently to their own. Giving the gods statistics blocks is an error in and of itself. Although I am not certain of the integrity of the type pyramid as of 3.5 (in fact it is almost certainly defunct, since you can usually get around or through it with enough templates), converting an undead into an outsider is one of the harder ones. Not particularly significant, since the undead type is overwhelmingly superior.
Morwen 07-15-07, 11:18 PM	Does this mean that an Outsider can not be an undead creature? No, it just means that the particular templates you are referring to can't be applied to the given types. I'm sure there are some Outsider-templates that can be added to Undead, and vice-versa, just not the Monster of Legend and Vampire ones :)
Darth_Singe 07-16-07, 05:52 PM	Thanks fellers. But, I cheated, and renamed the Monster of Legend template to Champion of ~Insert Homebrew Goddess-Demon Name Here~ and changed the little "Who it can be added to" part. Why? Cuz I'm the DM. :)
Dead_Weasel 07-16-07, 09:00 PM	That is, in fact, perfectly legitimate, and one of the uses of Rule 0 that I indulge in myself.
snakeman830 07-17-07, 10:48 AM	It's like having an undead character that reaches tenth level of dragon disciple. Questions can come up around this. If their type changes to dragon, do they regain their Con score? Do they qualify for undead templates that can be added to dragons? Does their type even change? Lots of questions and some bizzare results depending on your DM. BTW, when creating opponenets, I love to invoke rule 0.