Applying Undead Variants from Libris Mortis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Applying Undead Variants from Libris Mortis [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pennarin
11-04-04, 12:51 AM How does one apply Undead Variants from Libris Mortis?

A DM can just send variant undead in the path of his PCs, but how does a necromancer-type PC apply the small variant templates to his creations?
What's to stop him from making all his zombies Bloodthirsty, Diseased, Fast, Hunting and Unkillable? The only thing, besides advantages, that these variants give a zombie is an increase in their CR, but none of the necromantic spells (animate dead, create undead, create greater undead) work by CR, they work by monster type. Of course the monster types themselves are of escalating CR, but it doesn't matter: if one is of 12th level and creates zombies through a casting of animate dead, what is it that governs how many variants he can give the zombies?
Dartanel
11-04-04, 11:05 AM If variant zombies could be created via any spell in the phb, the requisite spell would be listed in the description.
Without such a list, the varient undead cannot be created by the book.

The DM controls access to the varient undead by the fact that they have to house rule in any method of creating them.
kinem
11-05-04, 04:46 PM Right, there have to be house rules for it if you use the variants. So the question becomes, what should those rules be?

I think the LM shouldn't have left it up in the air like that. I don't know of many other cases where they made it so that you need to make extensive house rules in order to use something. It's one more example of how poorly done the book is.

BTW, I tried to come up with guidelines for a similar problem: finding the CR and LA/xp adjustments for undead that have been augmented by the corpsecrafter feats. My attempt is here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4773549#post4773549

One possibility is to make more feats like the corpsecrafter ones that allow you to make the variant undead. They really should have unified the two systems of augmented undead! The problem is that spending a lot of feats on improving zombies is not really worth it, and you can't combine everything in non-epic levels.

Another possibility is to make new spells that let you animate undead with the variant properties. The problem here is combinations, but maybe the way it could work is that each spell will give one variant property to a zombie and must be cast before the corpse is animated. You could combine them all by learning and casting all the spells, then animating it. The spells should probably have material components that cost more than 1 gp.
Pennarin
11-05-04, 08:58 PM kinem, your link isn't working.

I would lean toward a feat that allows a necromancer to add variants to an undead. The necromancer can add any variant, even more than one, and each one costs a small amount of XP to apply x CR modifier.

Cost: 20 XP* x CR modifier

*or more (I remember there's a rule for a spell or monster that requires you to spend 20 XP every time you want to obtain something)
kinem
11-07-04, 01:20 AM That would work mechanically, but I think it would lose some of the flavor of variants if anyone who could make one kind could make all kinds.
Dartanel
11-07-04, 03:09 AM This is where, I think, the power components varient from Unearthed Arcana comes in handy.

step one: Assume that a varient undead increases the effective spell level of the requisite undead creation spell by one per +cr. (With attendent increase in neccessary caster level)

Example: Let's use the creation of a soldier skeleton for our sample.
Skeletons are made via the animate dead spell (3rd level, I think. Probably wrong but I'm too lazy to leave my cozy blankies to grab the PHB out of the living room) So the +1 CR Soldier skeleton varient would require the power of a 4th level spell, and thus could only be done by a 7th level caster.

Step two: Now, simply increasing the level of the spell is too easy. We want the caster to do something special to access the extra dark energy needed. So we say the caster has to include a special component in the use of the animate dead spell to create his soldier skeletons.
IIRC the cost of a power component is derived by subtracting the cost of a scroll of the original spell from the cost of a scroll of the modified (ok, I'm just guessing, my UA is in the living room with the PHB) So in this case, 700gp - 375gp = 325gp. All thats left would be deciding what the 325gp represents. Let's say in this case some masterwork armor pieces anointed in the blood of a devil warrior.

Now all that's left is to balance. Since varient undead are commonly more powerful, the necromancer should be able to control fewer of them. Thus we simply add the CR mod to the undead's hit dice for determining how many can be controlled. (Sort of the way turn resistance makes them harder for good clerics to repel undead, the CR mod makes it harder for evil folks to rein them in)

Well, it's quick, it's buggy, but it's a start. Play with it, make it work, and have fun :)
Pennarin
11-08-04, 01:13 AM Oooooo...power components. Like it a lot. Better than my idea...

Yeah, its a good way of applying variants, although a component like a masterwork armor is not the right way to go. You can't force a necromancer to put equipment on his zombies and skeletons. Instead you can use stuff like...using the corpse of a big hungry man, or adding the gullet of such a man to a pre-animated zombie, to obtain a Bloodthirsty Zombie.
Dartanel
11-09-04, 01:06 AM On?
Components are consumed by the casting. The use of armor pieces was symbolic.
Pennarin
11-09-04, 03:41 AM Oh, I get it now.
Sorry :blush:

So the piece of armor is not, like, a plastron but a piece of plastron.

Yeah, then that works perfectly. So the component is consumed and costs the amount of money you computed.

Idea: Maybe some research like for a new spell might be a nice addition.
Taking from the wizard's Spells section in the PHB, you could say:
To learn, prepare, or cast a necromantic spell that will apply an undead variant to an undead you are about to create, you must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + 1/2 the spell level + the CR of the variants (rounded up).
Also, the variants should be researched, like for spells, as in the DMG:
Researching an undead variant requires an expenditure of 1,000 gp per week and takes one week per CR of the variant, rounded up. At the end of that time, the character makes a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + 1/2 the spell level + the CR of the variant [rounded up]) to see if the research succeeds or wether he needs to start over.
Don't forget a list of power components, mirroring the one in the BoVD, for each variant.
Romulus LoneWolf
11-09-04, 10:49 AM Here's a simple idea: Make it require a Knowledge (Arcana) check, perhaps DC 20+number of modifications...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pennarin 11-04-04, 12:51 AM	How does one apply Undead Variants from Libris Mortis? A DM can just send variant undead in the path of his PCs, but how does a necromancer-type PC apply the small variant templates to his creations? What's to stop him from making all his zombies Bloodthirsty, Diseased, Fast, Hunting and Unkillable? The only thing, besides advantages, that these variants give a zombie is an increase in their CR, but none of the necromantic spells (animate dead, create undead, create greater undead) work by CR, they work by monster type. Of course the monster types themselves are of escalating CR, but it doesn't matter: if one is of 12th level and creates zombies through a casting of animate dead, what is it that governs how many variants he can give the zombies?
Dartanel 11-04-04, 11:05 AM	If variant zombies could be created via any spell in the phb, the requisite spell would be listed in the description. Without such a list, the varient undead cannot be created by the book. The DM controls access to the varient undead by the fact that they have to house rule in any method of creating them.
kinem 11-05-04, 04:46 PM	Right, there have to be house rules for it if you use the variants. So the question becomes, what should those rules be? I think the LM shouldn't have left it up in the air like that. I don't know of many other cases where they made it so that you need to make extensive house rules in order to use something. It's one more example of how poorly done the book is. BTW, I tried to come up with guidelines for a similar problem: finding the CR and LA/xp adjustments for undead that have been augmented by the corpsecrafter feats. My attempt is here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4773549#post4773549 One possibility is to make more feats like the corpsecrafter ones that allow you to make the variant undead. They really should have unified the two systems of augmented undead! The problem is that spending a lot of feats on improving zombies is not really worth it, and you can't combine everything in non-epic levels. Another possibility is to make new spells that let you animate undead with the variant properties. The problem here is combinations, but maybe the way it could work is that each spell will give one variant property to a zombie and must be cast before the corpse is animated. You could combine them all by learning and casting all the spells, then animating it. The spells should probably have material components that cost more than 1 gp.
Pennarin 11-05-04, 08:58 PM	kinem, your link isn't working. I would lean toward a feat that allows a necromancer to add variants to an undead. The necromancer can add any variant, even more than one, and each one costs a small amount of XP to apply x CR modifier. Cost: 20 XP* x CR modifier *or more (I remember there's a rule for a spell or monster that requires you to spend 20 XP every time you want to obtain something)
kinem 11-07-04, 01:20 AM	That would work mechanically, but I think it would lose some of the flavor of variants if anyone who could make one kind could make all kinds.
Dartanel 11-07-04, 03:09 AM	This is where, I think, the power components varient from Unearthed Arcana comes in handy. step one: Assume that a varient undead increases the effective spell level of the requisite undead creation spell by one per +cr. (With attendent increase in neccessary caster level) Example: Let's use the creation of a soldier skeleton for our sample. Skeletons are made via the animate dead spell (3rd level, I think. Probably wrong but I'm too lazy to leave my cozy blankies to grab the PHB out of the living room) So the +1 CR Soldier skeleton varient would require the power of a 4th level spell, and thus could only be done by a 7th level caster. Step two: Now, simply increasing the level of the spell is too easy. We want the caster to do something special to access the extra dark energy needed. So we say the caster has to include a special component in the use of the animate dead spell to create his soldier skeletons. IIRC the cost of a power component is derived by subtracting the cost of a scroll of the original spell from the cost of a scroll of the modified (ok, I'm just guessing, my UA is in the living room with the PHB) So in this case, 700gp - 375gp = 325gp. All thats left would be deciding what the 325gp represents. Let's say in this case some masterwork armor pieces anointed in the blood of a devil warrior. Now all that's left is to balance. Since varient undead are commonly more powerful, the necromancer should be able to control fewer of them. Thus we simply add the CR mod to the undead's hit dice for determining how many can be controlled. (Sort of the way turn resistance makes them harder for good clerics to repel undead, the CR mod makes it harder for evil folks to rein them in) Well, it's quick, it's buggy, but it's a start. Play with it, make it work, and have fun :)
Pennarin 11-08-04, 01:13 AM	Oooooo...power components. Like it a lot. Better than my idea... Yeah, its a good way of applying variants, although a component like a masterwork armor is not the right way to go. You can't force a necromancer to put equipment on his zombies and skeletons. Instead you can use stuff like...using the corpse of a big hungry man, or adding the gullet of such a man to a pre-animated zombie, to obtain a Bloodthirsty Zombie.
Dartanel 11-09-04, 01:06 AM	On? Components are consumed by the casting. The use of armor pieces was symbolic.
Pennarin 11-09-04, 03:41 AM	Oh, I get it now. Sorry :blush: So the piece of armor is not, like, a plastron but a piece of plastron. Yeah, then that works perfectly. So the component is consumed and costs the amount of money you computed. Idea: Maybe some research like for a new spell might be a nice addition. Taking from the wizard's Spells section in the PHB, you could say: To learn, prepare, or cast a necromantic spell that will apply an undead variant to an undead you are about to create, you must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + 1/2 the spell level + the CR of the variants (rounded up). Also, the variants should be researched, like for spells, as in the DMG: Researching an undead variant requires an expenditure of 1,000 gp per week and takes one week per CR of the variant, rounded up. At the end of that time, the character makes a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + 1/2 the spell level + the CR of the variant [rounded up]) to see if the research succeeds or wether he needs to start over. Don't forget a list of power components, mirroring the one in the BoVD, for each variant.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-09-04, 10:49 AM	Here's a simple idea: Make it require a Knowledge (Arcana) check, perhaps DC 20+number of modifications...