Archetypical Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archetypical Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Roman
05-12-04, 10:53 PM Dragons: All types
Giants: All types
Fey: All types
Lycantropes: All types
Outsiders: Demons, Devils, Celestials, Elementals, etc.
Undead: Vampires, Ghosts, Mummies, Skeletons, etc.
Humanoids: Orcs, Goblins, Dwarves, Elves, etc.
Hybrids: Chimeras, Pegasi, Centaurs, Manticores, etc.

What other 'monster groups' (and sub-groups) would you consider 'archetypical'?
Hammerhead
05-13-04, 12:49 AM Well for types of dragons you would have chromatic, metallic, gem and epic. If by archtypical you mean the "basic" or "classic" type a red dragon would probably be it
Roman
05-13-04, 10:42 PM Yes, I mean classic fantasy monsters... are there any more basic types and subtypes anyone can think of?
Roman
05-14-04, 07:44 PM No more archetypical monsters anyone can think of?
Shemeska the Marauder
05-14-04, 10:39 PM add Yugoloths, Slaadi and Modrons to the Outsider list (though the list there is gigantic in what it encompasses if you go less broad in catagories. For instance, you could add Gehreleths as a 4th exemplar on the fiend side...)
IceFractal
05-14-04, 10:55 PM The only "archetypical" moster I can think of is the Sharn (or was is Sharm?), from Monsters of Faerun. Its the one with the "Archetypical Form" ability that means you can't polymorph into one (understandable, given that they have 9 arms and 3 heads). :D

But seriously, I'm not so sure about Slaadi or Yugoloths, unless you mean archetypical within D&D.
grazzt_the_dark
05-14-04, 11:27 PM I'd throw in beholder (practically mainstream by now, there was even one on futurama), trolls (or do they count as giants?), minotaurs, medusas (or gorgons if you want to be technical), and centaurs. To start, anyways.
Makaris
05-15-04, 02:53 PM Goblins and orcs. First and foremost.

Illithid I think is pretty archetypical, as well as those durned skunk elves, the Drow.
Lilt
05-15-04, 03:34 PM What do you mean by 'archetypical'?

Do you mean monsters that have been taken from classical/religious/folk-lore literature?

I'm not sure if Sladdi and Modrons are archetypical, AFAIK they are D&D creations... (Please, correct me if I'm wrong here)

The Goblinoids and Monsterous humanoids are pretty-much archetypical, the only exception I can think of being the yuan-ti which I suspect is another D&D creation. The standard PC races (except for the half-orc) are also somewhat archetypical.

I would hardly call crystaline dragons archetypical, nor epic dragons. Metallic and Chromatic dragons do appear in folk-lore, but I think the separation into good and evil dragons is largely D&D's doing.

Forgive me if my answers are a bit screwy. Give me a definition of what you mean by 'archetypical' and I'll give you a better answer.
Roman
05-15-04, 10:01 PM I must confess that I am somewhat split about what I mean by 'archetypical'. I guess originally I meant monsters that appear in legends, but I suppose D&D has had such an impact on fantasy that some specifically D&D monsters now became an archetypical (yes, that word again) part of the fantasy culture. Grazzt_the_dark pointed out that Beholder, for example, may have crossed the line from a D&D monster to an archetypical one and though I am not certain of this, it is possible.

Also, more than individual monsters (such as types of dragons), I am looking for archetypical monster types (groups of monsters) such as dragons in general, or humanoids (rather than orcs, elves, dvarves, goblins, etc.). Of course, there are monsters that do not fit into any of these categories and I guess individual monsters will do in that case.
Lilt
05-15-04, 11:18 PM Well here are some I can think of:
Centaurs, Unicorns, Pegasi, Treants, Kraken, Giant Eagles (Ala Tolkien), Sphinx (Well, sorta), Golems (slap this into the construct/'magically animated creature' category, along with homunculi and frankenstein), Rocs (I dunno the origin of this one, but I suspect it's folklore), Merfolk, Hydras, Harpies, Dopplegangers (Dunno the origin of this one either... May be D&D), maybe some others.

(I know these aren't quite what you're looking for, but folklore dosen't always classify stuff neatly)
Roman
05-16-04, 12:05 AM Originally posted by Lilt

(I know these aren't quite what you're looking for, but folklore dosen't always classify stuff neatly)

Actually, that was pretty helpful - thanks. Folklore might not classify stuff neatly, but I can give it a helping hand. ;)

Originally posted by Lilt
Well here are some I can think of:
Centaurs, Unicorns, Pegasi,

Those three are already included in my animal hybrid category.

Treants[/quoote]

Very good point - perhaps it could be classified as animate plant or something along those lines.

[quote]Kraken

Another great one, but this time I am completely at a loss as to how to classify it.

Giant Eagles (Ala Tolkien)

True - I suppose giant and dwarf versions of all animals and even humans would qualify as archetypical.

Sphinx (Well, sorta)

Yes, Sphinx is a definite one.

Golems (slap this into the construct/'magically animated creature' category, along with homunculi and frankenstein)

Very good one! :)

Rocs (I dunno the origin of this one, but I suspect it's folklore),

I am not sure on this one either.

Merfolk

Yes, I guess sea versions of creatures in general.

Hydras

Hmm, perhaps multi-headed creatures?

Harpies

Yep, another hybrid animal-human.

Doppelgangers (Dunno the origin of this one either... May be D&D), maybe some others.

I too am not sure on the Doppelganger - shifters as a category, however, would be archetypical.

This was good! :cool: Any more?
Shemeska the Marauder
05-16-04, 01:43 AM Rocs are mentioned in the Sinbad legends, and I believe in other tales from Arabia and Turkey.

I mentioned modrons, slaadi and Yugoloths because when you said archetypal I presumed, being a D&D monster board that in the absence of any other qualifier we meant within D&D.
Cam S.
05-16-04, 02:18 AM Doppelgangers come from teutonic (german) folklore, and weren't originally shapeshifters, but everyone's "evil twin", so to speak.

Roc (or Rukh) are from arabian mythology (yes, the sinbad legends).

Hydra are from greek legend, Heracles fought one.

From OA: Not sure where "Oni" would fit in, but they're from Japanese Legend, as are Kappa.

Spriggan are also from teutonic mythos.

As for a group, I'd suggest a sort of sub-group for Hybrids: Abominations--this I'd use as a catch-all for the evil "things that should not be" (IE: anything from Lovecraft), and would include La Tarrasque (from French Christian myth) as well as (possibly) the Manticore and Basilisk.
Freefall
05-16-04, 02:20 AM Ogres are about the most archetypal monstrous humanoid there is (I see now that they are classed as giants; never noticed that before, but I actually used the term "monstrous humanoid" because, well, they are humanoid, but monstrous. Just seems to fit).

I think basilisks are pretty archetypal, though I don't know where they come from.

Dryads, gargoyles, Djinn and Efreet (not sure about Dao and Marids), Hags, Nagas, Nymphs, Giant spiders, and Raksashas all fit, I think. From the Epic Level Handbook, I would say Genius Loci, Hoary Hunter, Legendary Animal, Ruin Swarm, and Sirrush (Mesopotamian in origin). Those are the only official monster books I have. Well, for 3E anyway.

Green Ronin's Armageddon Beast is based off the dragon-like form Satan takes in Revelation.

With some of the dragons and giants, I'm not sure if I'd consider all of them archtypal. Red dragons (or any that breathe fire) fit pretty well, but I don't remember a lot of stories about crystalline dragons, or dragons breathing lightning. With giants I think hill, mountain, stone, fire, and frost all work, but I'm not so sure about the other kinds (well, storm giants maybe since they seem to me to be based more or less on Zeus, or at least the idea of some giant bearbed guy in the mountains throwing lightning bolts around. That's certainly the image the 1E MM gave anyway. The 3E one is not quite as expressive).
Roman
05-17-04, 09:23 PM Interesting information there. :) I have now been inspired to try to organize a competition to design the best new Monster that has the potential to be Archetypical.
grazzt_the_dark
05-18-04, 10:44 AM Originally posted by Freefall
With some of the dragons and giants, I'm not sure if I'd consider all of them archtypal. Red dragons (or any that breathe fire) fit pretty well, but I don't remember a lot of stories about crystalline dragons, or dragons breathing lightning. With giants I think hill, mountain, stone, fire, and frost all work, but I'm not so sure about the other kinds (well, storm giants maybe since they seem to me to be based more or less on Zeus, or at least the idea of some giant bearbed guy in the mountains throwing lightning bolts around. That's certainly the image the 1E MM gave anyway. The 3E one is not quite as expressive).

I think cloud giants are based on the giants from the story Jack and the Beanstalk. As for dragons, some historical dragons or dragon-like monsters didn't breathe fire. For instance, Midgardsorm spat either acid or poison at Thor (not sure which). Did oriental dragons even have breath weapons? I'm not entirely sure, but they might also be an example.

Actually, a good way to determine what archetypical or not is to look at the SRD. If its not archetypical, then its not in the SRD, and has been copyrighted (probably).
Wizzy of Eros
05-18-04, 11:51 AM Treant is a plant creature/monster:)
Roman
05-18-04, 07:09 PM Originally posted by Wizzy of Eros
Treant is a plant creature/monster:)

Yeah, I messed up the quotes - Kraken is the one I am at a loss to classify.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Roman 05-12-04, 10:53 PM	Dragons: All types Giants: All types Fey: All types Lycantropes: All types Outsiders: Demons, Devils, Celestials, Elementals, etc. Undead: Vampires, Ghosts, Mummies, Skeletons, etc. Humanoids: Orcs, Goblins, Dwarves, Elves, etc. Hybrids: Chimeras, Pegasi, Centaurs, Manticores, etc. What other 'monster groups' (and sub-groups) would you consider 'archetypical'?
Hammerhead 05-13-04, 12:49 AM	Well for types of dragons you would have chromatic, metallic, gem and epic. If by archtypical you mean the "basic" or "classic" type a red dragon would probably be it
Roman 05-13-04, 10:42 PM	Yes, I mean classic fantasy monsters... are there any more basic types and subtypes anyone can think of?
Roman 05-14-04, 07:44 PM	No more archetypical monsters anyone can think of?
Shemeska the Marauder 05-14-04, 10:39 PM	add Yugoloths, Slaadi and Modrons to the Outsider list (though the list there is gigantic in what it encompasses if you go less broad in catagories. For instance, you could add Gehreleths as a 4th exemplar on the fiend side...)
IceFractal 05-14-04, 10:55 PM	The only "archetypical" moster I can think of is the Sharn (or was is Sharm?), from Monsters of Faerun. Its the one with the "Archetypical Form" ability that means you can't polymorph into one (understandable, given that they have 9 arms and 3 heads). :D But seriously, I'm not so sure about Slaadi or Yugoloths, unless you mean archetypical within D&D.
grazzt_the_dark 05-14-04, 11:27 PM	I'd throw in beholder (practically mainstream by now, there was even one on futurama), trolls (or do they count as giants?), minotaurs, medusas (or gorgons if you want to be technical), and centaurs. To start, anyways.
Makaris 05-15-04, 02:53 PM	Goblins and orcs. First and foremost. Illithid I think is pretty archetypical, as well as those durned skunk elves, the Drow.
Lilt 05-15-04, 03:34 PM	What do you mean by 'archetypical'? Do you mean monsters that have been taken from classical/religious/folk-lore literature? I'm not sure if Sladdi and Modrons are archetypical, AFAIK they are D&D creations... (Please, correct me if I'm wrong here) The Goblinoids and Monsterous humanoids are pretty-much archetypical, the only exception I can think of being the yuan-ti which I suspect is another D&D creation. The standard PC races (except for the half-orc) are also somewhat archetypical. I would hardly call crystaline dragons archetypical, nor epic dragons. Metallic and Chromatic dragons do appear in folk-lore, but I think the separation into good and evil dragons is largely D&D's doing. Forgive me if my answers are a bit screwy. Give me a definition of what you mean by 'archetypical' and I'll give you a better answer.
Roman 05-15-04, 10:01 PM	I must confess that I am somewhat split about what I mean by 'archetypical'. I guess originally I meant monsters that appear in legends, but I suppose D&D has had such an impact on fantasy that some specifically D&D monsters now became an archetypical (yes, that word again) part of the fantasy culture. Grazzt_the_dark pointed out that Beholder, for example, may have crossed the line from a D&D monster to an archetypical one and though I am not certain of this, it is possible. Also, more than individual monsters (such as types of dragons), I am looking for archetypical monster types (groups of monsters) such as dragons in general, or humanoids (rather than orcs, elves, dvarves, goblins, etc.). Of course, there are monsters that do not fit into any of these categories and I guess individual monsters will do in that case.
Lilt 05-15-04, 11:18 PM	Well here are some I can think of: Centaurs, Unicorns, Pegasi, Treants, Kraken, Giant Eagles (Ala Tolkien), Sphinx (Well, sorta), Golems (slap this into the construct/'magically animated creature' category, along with homunculi and frankenstein), Rocs (I dunno the origin of this one, but I suspect it's folklore), Merfolk, Hydras, Harpies, Dopplegangers (Dunno the origin of this one either... May be D&D), maybe some others. (I know these aren't quite what you're looking for, but folklore dosen't always classify stuff neatly)
Roman 05-16-04, 12:05 AM	Originally posted by Lilt (I know these aren't quite what you're looking for, but folklore dosen't always classify stuff neatly) Actually, that was pretty helpful - thanks. Folklore might not classify stuff neatly, but I can give it a helping hand. ;) Originally posted by Lilt Well here are some I can think of: Centaurs, Unicorns, Pegasi, Those three are already included in my animal hybrid category. Treants[/quoote] Very good point - perhaps it could be classified as animate plant or something along those lines. [quote]Kraken Another great one, but this time I am completely at a loss as to how to classify it. Giant Eagles (Ala Tolkien) True - I suppose giant and dwarf versions of all animals and even humans would qualify as archetypical. Sphinx (Well, sorta) Yes, Sphinx is a definite one. Golems (slap this into the construct/'magically animated creature' category, along with homunculi and frankenstein) Very good one! :) Rocs (I dunno the origin of this one, but I suspect it's folklore), I am not sure on this one either. Merfolk Yes, I guess sea versions of creatures in general. Hydras Hmm, perhaps multi-headed creatures? Harpies Yep, another hybrid animal-human. Doppelgangers (Dunno the origin of this one either... May be D&D), maybe some others. I too am not sure on the Doppelganger - shifters as a category, however, would be archetypical. This was good! :cool: Any more?
Shemeska the Marauder 05-16-04, 01:43 AM	Rocs are mentioned in the Sinbad legends, and I believe in other tales from Arabia and Turkey. I mentioned modrons, slaadi and Yugoloths because when you said archetypal I presumed, being a D&D monster board that in the absence of any other qualifier we meant within D&D.
Cam S. 05-16-04, 02:18 AM	Doppelgangers come from teutonic (german) folklore, and weren't originally shapeshifters, but everyone's "evil twin", so to speak. Roc (or Rukh) are from arabian mythology (yes, the sinbad legends). Hydra are from greek legend, Heracles fought one. From OA: Not sure where "Oni" would fit in, but they're from Japanese Legend, as are Kappa. Spriggan are also from teutonic mythos. As for a group, I'd suggest a sort of sub-group for Hybrids: Abominations--this I'd use as a catch-all for the evil "things that should not be" (IE: anything from Lovecraft), and would include La Tarrasque (from French Christian myth) as well as (possibly) the Manticore and Basilisk.
Freefall 05-16-04, 02:20 AM	Ogres are about the most archetypal monstrous humanoid there is (I see now that they are classed as giants; never noticed that before, but I actually used the term "monstrous humanoid" because, well, they are humanoid, but monstrous. Just seems to fit). I think basilisks are pretty archetypal, though I don't know where they come from. Dryads, gargoyles, Djinn and Efreet (not sure about Dao and Marids), Hags, Nagas, Nymphs, Giant spiders, and Raksashas all fit, I think. From the Epic Level Handbook, I would say Genius Loci, Hoary Hunter, Legendary Animal, Ruin Swarm, and Sirrush (Mesopotamian in origin). Those are the only official monster books I have. Well, for 3E anyway. Green Ronin's Armageddon Beast is based off the dragon-like form Satan takes in Revelation. With some of the dragons and giants, I'm not sure if I'd consider all of them archtypal. Red dragons (or any that breathe fire) fit pretty well, but I don't remember a lot of stories about crystalline dragons, or dragons breathing lightning. With giants I think hill, mountain, stone, fire, and frost all work, but I'm not so sure about the other kinds (well, storm giants maybe since they seem to me to be based more or less on Zeus, or at least the idea of some giant bearbed guy in the mountains throwing lightning bolts around. That's certainly the image the 1E MM gave anyway. The 3E one is not quite as expressive).
Roman 05-17-04, 09:23 PM	Interesting information there. :) I have now been inspired to try to organize a competition to design the best new Monster that has the potential to be Archetypical.
grazzt_the_dark 05-18-04, 10:44 AM	Originally posted by Freefall With some of the dragons and giants, I'm not sure if I'd consider all of them archtypal. Red dragons (or any that breathe fire) fit pretty well, but I don't remember a lot of stories about crystalline dragons, or dragons breathing lightning. With giants I think hill, mountain, stone, fire, and frost all work, but I'm not so sure about the other kinds (well, storm giants maybe since they seem to me to be based more or less on Zeus, or at least the idea of some giant bearbed guy in the mountains throwing lightning bolts around. That's certainly the image the 1E MM gave anyway. The 3E one is not quite as expressive). I think cloud giants are based on the giants from the story Jack and the Beanstalk. As for dragons, some historical dragons or dragon-like monsters didn't breathe fire. For instance, Midgardsorm spat either acid or poison at Thor (not sure which). Did oriental dragons even have breath weapons? I'm not entirely sure, but they might also be an example. Actually, a good way to determine what archetypical or not is to look at the SRD. If its not archetypical, then its not in the SRD, and has been copyrighted (probably).
Wizzy of Eros 05-18-04, 11:51 AM	Treant is a plant creature/monster:)
Roman 05-18-04, 07:09 PM	Originally posted by Wizzy of Eros Treant is a plant creature/monster:) Yeah, I messed up the quotes - Kraken is the one I am at a loss to classify.