Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Incenjucar 08-18-04, 05:57 AM	Elementals, or so I feel, have been poorly written in 3e. They're able to catch colds, and are all vulnerable to organic-being-oriented spells like Horrid Wilting. Really, they should be listed more as some blend between Outsider and Construct. I'm not sure how much there is to discuss on this, but I figured it was worth seeing other opinions on this matter. What say ye?
Incenjucar 08-19-04, 07:58 AM	So... does that mean everyone agrees with me...?
cwslyclgh 08-19-04, 03:11 PM	not at all... I repsectfully disagree with you. Elementals, composed of pure forms of matter though they may be, are living creatures that make up the populations of the planes that they inhabit, just like humans do the material plane... I think that lettting them catch colds is fine.
Klaus van der Kroft 08-19-04, 09:46 PM	I tend to lean in the way Incenjucar points: A blend between an Outsider and a Construct. Although living, the way elementals "live" differs greatly from what organic creatures do, as much as a silicon-based creature would differ from carbon-based humans. An earth elemental being affected by flu, for example, would be as likely as finding a rock with fever. Same example for ice elementals and ice cubes. An elemental, however, is not a Construct, since it is not a mechanism of any kind. And that is another of the main reasons that, I think, separate organic creatures from elementals, since organisms are, technically speaking, biological constructs, that function based on complex mechanisms (that is structly physically speaking. Souls are another issue).
Kilsek of Sheverash 08-19-04, 10:14 PM	I'm okay with the elementals, and I really like the para-elementals too (lava, ice, smoke, etc.). Honestly, it's Undead that I think could use a revision - that lack of a Constitution score may make aesthetic sense, but it weakens them significantly. To the point where you need to pile on ridiculous amounts of HD to make them "tough," as seen in the MMII and ELH. Giving bonus HP for undead like they gave to 3.5 Constructs make sense to me. Not to mention how terrible their attack bonus is, when most of them rely on melee attacks... and thus yet another reason to need to pile on HD to make them "tough" as attackers too... :rolleyes:
headlessfriar 08-19-04, 10:39 PM	It's funny you mention the idea of elemental catching a cold. Going on real life here, different disease are or aren't going to affect different organisms, such as the flu being an avian diease that usually jumps to humans through an intermediary host, like a pig. While an elemental wouldn't get the flu (no sinus to get congested, after all) they could very well get their own illnesses. I had a campaign back in 2e based on the idea of a disease that made fire sick, making it weak, cooler, and having gaping holes flicker in the tissues of it's flames, as it were. This spread from elementals to mundane flames, leaving a world of mortals suffering from sick flames that couldn't cook properly, shed less light, had weird discolourations, and smelled sick.
Incenjucar 08-19-04, 10:55 PM	While I agree that elementals should be potentially susceptable to SOME sort of ailment, that argument really works for just about everything. Just about everything should be vulnerable to special versions of just about everything. A disease that rots stone, for instance, makes perfect sense, even in the real world, considering what moss does to granite. (really, this represents a whole list of problems with D&D's structure that's been around in every edition -- is an alien mind really so impenetratable to the same species?, for instance However, the typical diseases that things are immune to, in practice, are -usually- things that would logically only work on normal life forms only. I have a hard time seeing an earth elemental being affected by rabies anymore than a vampire (Indeed, vampires, again, have less of an excuse for an immunity due to their nature). But a fire elemental has to be just as wary of disease as the average human.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 08-19-04, 11:08 PM	I would give elementals immunity to disease. However, I would allow certain supernatural diseases to effect them. In a world where magical beasts of every variety abound, it only makes sense that bacteria and virii, the most flexible creatures on earth, would adapt to effect and feed on just about ANYTHING. Really, this just comes down to common sense and rule 0. If a character wants to put research into elemental diseases, and then use a variant of contagion to effect one, then awesome. I love that idea, and I'll let him do it (have fun delivering that touch attack to a fire elemental, though). If a spellcaster tries to use horrid wilting on a fire elemental, I'll look at him funny, and tell him it doesn't work, rules-be-damned. Horrid wilting is an interesting case, because dehydration damage comes up so rarely that nobody ever accounts for it in monster descriptions. I would say that fire resistance, in most cases, is also dehydration resistance. Same for immunity. That solves most problems with the spell for me. Though I'm sure if I think about it long enough, I'll see a situation that makes that absurd.
lugnut71 08-20-04, 09:02 AM	Actually water elementals should be hurt by horrid wilting but air,fire, and earth should be unaffected. That makes a problem their due you make immunity to horrid wilting a specific thing of elementals except water elementals or do you let the dm decide. I prefer the latter over the former. Along the lines of undead I always thought giving them bonus hit points equal to their charisma mod was a good idea. Of course it would hurt skeletons and zombies so maybe make it that they don't lose hit points because of a low one. Also a strength boost would be nice also for coporal ones since undead are always shown as inhumanly strong in fiction.
Incenjucar 08-20-04, 06:01 PM	Originally posted by Khaibit_Ema_Neteru I would give elementals immunity to disease. However, I would allow certain supernatural diseases to effect them. In a world where magical beasts of every variety abound, it only makes sense that bacteria and virii, the most flexible creatures on earth, would adapt to effect and feed on just about ANYTHING. Really, this just comes down to common sense and rule 0. If a character wants to put research into elemental diseases, and then use a variant of contagion to effect one, then awesome. I love that idea, and I'll let him do it (have fun delivering that touch attack to a fire elemental, though). If a spellcaster tries to use horrid wilting on a fire elemental, I'll look at him funny, and tell him it doesn't work, rules-be-damned. Horrid wilting is an interesting case, because dehydration damage comes up so rarely that nobody ever accounts for it in monster descriptions. I would say that fire resistance, in most cases, is also dehydration resistance. Same for immunity. That solves most problems with the spell for me. Though I'm sure if I think about it long enough, I'll see a situation that makes that absurd. Part of this, I feel, is because they ignored the 2e cosmology; when you have the QuasiPlane of Salt (wilting), the QuasiPlane of Dust (disintegration), the QuasiPlane of Ash (heat-drain which effects cold-immune beings), and the QuasiPlane of Vacuum (Fading existance), you have some more interesting possibilities. Of course, that's why I have my elemental polar concept. Always fun to make a white dragon shiver.
Bones 08-21-04, 07:22 AM	In my campaign, what we know as elementals are actually spirits from the elemental planes. When they arrive on the prime material plane, they form a body out of the appropriate element. If encountered on their home plane, they have their own bodies, complete with biology. Because of this, it is impossible to infect an elemental, unless it is done to their real bodies. works for me.