Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheCobra 11-25-06, 06:28 PM	From the MM: Krakens make their lairs thousands of feet below the ocean surface. From the DMG: Very deep water is not only generally pitch black, posing a navigational hazard, but worse, it deals water pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface. A successful Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) means the diver takes no damage in that minute. Even with its +21 Fort save, after about twenty minutes, a kraken is going to be taking 20d6 damage per minte at just two thousand feet below the surface. This seems problematic. Krakens don't have DR, fast healing, or regeneration.
KurenaiYami 11-25-06, 06:30 PM	From the MM: From the DMG: Even with its +21 Fort save, after about twenty minutes, a kraken is going to be taking 20d6 damage per minte at just two thousand feet below the surface. This seems problematic. Krakens don't have DR, fast healing, or regeneration. So the fish that live at the bottom of our oceans have Damage Reduction? If it lives there, it is acclimated.
Catra 11-25-06, 06:40 PM	Krakens are so huge, they probably have natural mechanisms to deflate or compact themselves in order to acclimate to the pressure when that far down, and the reinflate when they come closer to the surface. Kraken probably lay their eggs (or whatever) closer to the surface, so that the kraklings aren't crushed by the pressure. When they grow bigger, they start going into deeper water in order to find a lair.
TheCobra 11-25-06, 07:04 PM	So the fish that live at the bottom of our oceans have Damage Reduction? By the rules, a D&D fish would have to, yes. (Assuming DR applies to each 1d6 individually. If not, DR wouldn't be enough.) Remember, D&D animals aren't exactly like real ones. Your average D&D sperm whale can only hold its breath for twenty minutes or so (after 19.2 minutes it has to start making Fort saves). Real sperm whales regularly dive for 45 minutes, and can manage more than an hour.
DarkRhystar 11-25-06, 07:04 PM	Mistake Number 1: Expecting D&D to be consistent with itself.
TheCobra 11-25-06, 07:17 PM	Yeah, I know. But it is a bit of a problem. The deep water rules are rather harsh. Even with all the standard underwater spells, the PCs are going to have one hell of a time getting down to 2000-3000 feet below the surface. I guess if they dive as quickly as possible they might make it. If hasted, a character could run straight down at 240 feet per round. That'd make 2000 feet in a less than a minute. They'd have to know exactly where to go, though, and rolling a 1 on the Fort save could be deadly. Maybe that's why krakens have triple treasure.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-25-06, 07:26 PM	Mistake Number 1: Expecting D&D to be consistent with itself. Mistake #1: Not applying common sense to D&D. Obviously, pressure rules only apply to things which don't live in the particular environment. Otherwise Water Elementals would be crushed by marine pressure.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-25-06, 07:27 PM	Yeah, I know. But it is a bit of a problem. The deep water rules are rather harsh. Even with all the standard underwater spells, the PCs are going to have one hell of a time getting down to 2000-3000 feet below the surface. I guess if they dive as quickly as possible they might make it. If hasted, a character could run straight down at 240 feet per round. That'd make 2000 feet in a less than a minute. They'd have to know exactly where to go, though, and rolling a 1 on the Fort save could be deadly. Maybe that's why krakens have triple treasure. Telekinetic Sphere is your very good underwater exploration friend.
Red Dragon 11-25-06, 07:29 PM	Per Stormwrack, since they're native to blackwater areas, they're immune to pressure damage. Also per Stormwrack, any creature with the [Aquatic] subtype only takes 1d6 damage/minute per 200 feet below the surface, so there's not much to worry about, relatively, even if they are not considered native by the DM.
Fireclave 11-25-06, 07:30 PM	The intention of the rules for water pressure damage applies creatures that do not make their homes thousands of feet below the water. The body of a human, dwarf, halfling, formian worker, titan, howler monkey, etc aren't capable of withstanding that kind of pressure (okay, maybe the Titan). However, just as we can assume that most humanoids breath oxygen, fish can breath underwater, and any corporeal creature is capable of withstanding, let alone making their homes in, valcanoes, we can simply assume that krakens are likewise adapted to their natural environment and don't need to make saves vs water pressure.
Th_Ar_Al 11-25-06, 07:34 PM	If they are suicidal is not because they live in the deepwater, but because they go to the top of ocean to attack ships. ...most creatures that live in such high pressure a adapted to that pressure and go to a lower pressure can actually be fatal :D
TheCobra 11-25-06, 07:47 PM	Mistake #1: Not applying common sense to D&D. Do that too much and you won't be playing D&D anymore. Otherwise Water Elementals would be crushed by marine pressure. The bigger ones have DR. DR 10/- might stop pressure damage completely, depending on how it is applied. Per Stormwrack, since they're native to blackwater areas, they're immune to pressure damage. Also per Stormwrack, any creature with the [Aquatic] subtype only takes 1d6 damage/minute per 200 feet below the surface, so there's not much to worry about, relatively, even if they are not considered native by the DM. Well, that's good. I was trying to avoid having to use Stormwrack and those other environment books in my campaign. Ah well. I should have thought to look there. However, just as we can assume that most humanoids breath oxygen, fish can breath underwater Those two things are actually part of the rules.
Fireclave 11-25-06, 08:21 PM	Suffication, yes, is covered in the rules. But are oxygen breathing humanoids covered? Perhaps elves and halflings have to breath hydrogen, drawfs have to breath CO2, and good outsider can only breath the noble gases :D Maybe drawfs carry all of their breathing air in their beards :P Put a human into a airtight room with a bottle of air constantly emiting pure oxygen and watch him sufficate due to the lack of any breathable air. Absurd and extreme, yes, but it illustrates my point. Just as we can assume that humanoids, ect are adapted to breathing oxygen, we should be able to assume that creatures from native to an environment are adapted to their environment. Else, you should also start enforcing saves on all those other trench dwelling sea creatures living miles under the sea (especially the softbodied ones that would lack DR). You can't expect the rules to cover everything.
TheCobra 11-25-06, 08:45 PM	But are oxygen breathing humanoids covered? Breathing is, yes. As the SRD says, "Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep." Also: "An aquatic creature can breathe underwater."
Kojiro James 11-25-06, 09:21 PM	Do that too much and you won't be playing D&D anymore. The bigger ones have DR. DR 10/- might stop pressure damage completely, depending on how it is applied. Well, that's good. I was trying to avoid having to use Stormwrack and those other environment books in my campaign. Ah well. I should have thought to look there. Those two things are actually part of the rules. Come on to the back yard, son... I got a couple barrels to show ya.
Fireclave 11-25-06, 09:28 PM	Breathing is, yes. As the SRD says, "Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep." Also: "An aquatic creature can breathe underwater." You seem to have missed my point. Yes, I know breathing is covered in the rules. Yes I know that fish breathing underwater is covered in the rules. But nowhere in the rules does it say that humanoids breath oxygenand not some other gas. We could assume so, but it's not covered by the rules. Or at what temperature (if any) does fire immunity fail and a creature starts taking damage due to fussion. Or the rules for ascending to, and maintaing, and falling from diety-hood. Or the DC for catching the common cold. Or how many miles your character can walk before wearing out his shoes. Or how a stable economy could ever work in a standard D&D setting. My point is: The rules don't cover everything. For what the rules don't cover, you have to use *braces for impact* common sense to fill in the gaps. Note that I don't define common sense as the pursuit of trying to explain everything in D&D in the context real life terms, rules, laws, and physics. I define common sense as exercising and enforcing resonable assumptions and expectations unless the world is defined otherwise. Sense a typical D&D world works similarly to the real world, it's common sense in a D&D world for fire to be hot, for the sun to rise and set, for gravity to pull down, for people to breath oxygen, for krackens (like our giant squids) not to be crushed in their own native environment, and for fish to be able to breath underwater. However, given the way a D&D world works under the rules and flavor, it's also common sense in a D&D world for dragons to breath fire and fly, for wizards to break the laws of physics on a daily basis, for fighters to be able to fight all day without tiring, for undead to roam graveyards and battlefields, for untrained commoners to be able to make a 20ft leap 1/20th of the time, for politics to be even more complicated due to the existance of magic, and for cats being challenging apponents for commoners. If your world doesn't follow typical real world or D&D conventions (the sun never sets, the world is flat, and it's a low magic campaign), fine. Then what qualifies as common sense in your world would also change. It's no longer common sense to sail to the east in order to arrive on the west coast, it's no longer common sense to seek out power wizards for a +5 weapon, etc.
Cpt. Reed 11-25-06, 10:13 PM	Else, you should also start enforcing saves on all those other trench dwelling sea creatures living miles under the sea (especially the softbodied ones that would lack DR). You can't expect the rules to cover everything. Now that would be some site when they all fail their saves... ;) However, given the way a D&D world works under the rules and flavor, it's also common sense in a D&D world for dragons to breath fire and fly, for wizards to break the laws of physics on a daily basis, for fighters to be able to fight all day without tiring, for undead to roam graveyards and battlefields, for untrained commoners to be able to make a 20ft leap 1/20th of the time, for politics to be even more complicated due to the existance of magic, and for cats being challenging apponents for commoners. ... and that is why we love the game. Anyway my group likes to argue logic all the time, then I try to remind them of it being a fantasy game, honestly I am surprised they haven't brought this up. :cool:
TheCobra 11-26-06, 01:16 AM	But nowhere in the rules does it say that humanoids breath oxygenand not some other gas. Does this matter? They breath air, not water. That's all we really need to know. Or at what temperature (if any) does fire immunity fail and a creature starts taking damage due to fussion. By the RAW, immunity is immunity. Look, I don't even like the RAW. But that's what my current group of players wants, so I've got to do the best I can. Anyways, the fact that there are rules that solve this very problem in Stormwrack suggests the question was completely valid. Applying common sense to D&D is dangerous. About something as serious and simple as pressure damage, I'm glad to see that rules exist.
Lord_Canius 11-26-06, 11:32 PM	Hey, here's a revolutionary idea. Lets not get into a Rule 0 argument here, 'kay? I have to agree with the sentiment that because the Krakens usually (and I use the world lightly, I've used flying Krakens before) live in a deep aquatic environ, they should be acclimated and therefore immune to the pressure. If, for the sake of realism, you would like to make them make saves for ascending or descending quickly, that is up to you. But when not rushed, the Krakens should be just fine and dandy going thousands of feet underwater.
Raptorial 11-27-06, 12:56 AM	Krakens are just like giant squids, they don't have damage dealt by pressure due to the fact that they live there and have bodies designed to withstand the immense pressure.
RavingDork 11-27-06, 04:02 PM	Damage reduction does not protect a creature from water pressure damage any more than it does falling damage or fire damage. (Damage reduction only ever applies to ATTACKS made by an opponent.) Here, I'll show you... DAMAGE REDUCTION Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or to ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable. The numerical part of a creature’s damage reduction is the amount of hit points the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction. This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, by magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment. If a dash follows the slash then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction. Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have). Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact. Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells. Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction. Sometimes damage reduction is instant healing. Sometimes damage reduction represents the creature’s tough hide or body,. In either case, characters can see that conventional attacks don’t work. If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation. Notice it refers ONLY to attacks. Also... Attack: Any of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent. Just so you know. :P
TheCobra 11-27-06, 05:30 PM	Well that just brings up another contradiction in D&D rules. From iron body: Your weight increases by a factor of ten, causing you to sink in water like a stone. However, you could survive the crushing pressure and lack of air at the bottom of the ocean—at least until the spell duration expires. If DR doesn't apply, I'm not sure what is saving the character from the crushing pressure at the bottom of the ocean. In fact, most golems wouldn't last more than a few minutes at the bottom of the ocean.
Occam 11-27-06, 06:01 PM	This is part of a larger issue. To point out a less extreme example, what happens to creatures that live in warm or cold areas? Heat, for instance, starts causing damage above 90F (32C), which is all day and possibly all night in many parts of the world for much of the year. What happens to the apes, snakes, and camels, the sphinxes and stirges, the halflings and humans that live in such areas? There must be some acclimatization that occurs to reduce or eliminate the penalties, or raise the effect thresholds. But there's no provision for it in the rules, and granting someone protection from those effects is a clear benefit. Do you balance it by saying that someone used to 100F weather starts taking damage at temperatures below 50F?
TheCobra 11-27-06, 06:09 PM	Wow, I hadn't realized the heat rules were that severe. That's downright absurd. Days above 90F can be uncomfortable, but they shouldn't be incapacitating or lethal. By the RAW, it does look like your average commoner dies in about three or four hours if it's above 90F. He dies as quickly if it's below 40F. No wonder they lose to cats! However, if a character is protected from the heat, they can avoid taking this damage. According Sandstorm, a simple parasol or desert outfit will do the trick. Sandstorm also creatures native to the environment immunity to the normal levels of heat. Frostburn does the same for cold.
Cameron_DuModre 11-27-06, 06:25 PM	In respect to commoners but they probably have ways (such as hydrating themselves and wearing widebrim hats to protect their heads/faces from the heat, or in the case of desert-dwellers loose-fitting clothing designed to seal in coolness) of keeping themselves from dying. :)
RavingDork 11-27-06, 10:30 PM	Well that just brings up another contradiction in D&D rules. From iron body: ... If DR doesn't apply, I'm not sure what is saving the character from the crushing pressure at the bottom of the ocean. In fact, most golems wouldn't last more than a few minutes at the bottom of the ocean. Damage reduction has nothing to do with it. You gain immunity to the pressure because the spell says you do. Having a body made of solid iron makes you kind of hard to crush anyhow. :rolleyes:
Dumat 11-27-06, 10:31 PM	So the fish that live at the bottom of our oceans have Damage Reduction? If it lives there, it is acclimated. Not to quibble, but if it's acclimated to deep water, it would die when coming to the surface for something like, oh, attacking a ship. It's not just the pressure or the lack of pressure that kills, but also the secondary effects, such at nitrogen balance in the bloodstream, concentration of gasses, etc. Much more comes into play than just the weight of the water. Just assume there's something magical and evil and powerful about it that preserves it and leave it at that..
TheCobra 11-27-06, 10:58 PM	Damage reduction has nothing to do with it. You gain immunity to the pressure because the spell says you do. That's fluff, though. It doesn't say you gain immunity to pressure damage, just that you could survive the pressure. Having a body made of solid iron makes you kind of hard to crush anyhow. Then why do iron golems take full pressure damage by the RAW?
Aeolus91 11-27-06, 11:03 PM	Iron golems aren't solid; they're hollow. Therefore, crushed. You can crush an empty Coke can with your hands easily, but can you crush it before you open it? Nope. That's cuz it has stuff in it; it's not hollow. Anyhow this is just one of those "hee hee the rules are stoopid!" threads... like how the RAW doesn't mention what happens if you die.. it just says "when reduced to -10 HP, a creature dies." And? It never says. It relies on you to know that dead creatures can't do anything. Rawr! :dragon:
TheCobra 11-27-06, 11:13 PM	As I've said before, if this thread is stupid, then the writers of Stormwrack must be stupid as well. But the rules really are stupid sometimes. :P Iron golems aren't solid; they're hollow. I don't see much evidence for this idea in the description of iron golems. From the SRD: An iron golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp. Also, about stone golems: A stone golem’s body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The fact is that any construct, regardless of construction, dies to pressure damage by the RAW. Characters who cast iron body are, it seems, somehow immune to to this damage, but only creatures adapted to deep seas share that immunity.
Lord_Canius 11-27-06, 11:37 PM	Well, I dont want to get into specifics, because I dont know exactly what I'm talking about, but the spell Iron Body does say that a character with this spell on them no longer has the need to breath, which I'm assuming to mean that it turns the entire body, lungs included, into metal. Solid iron, very tough. Iron Golems, however, ARE hollow. How else would they be able to move thier joints? The iron would push against the iron, and since both have the same amount of force and strength, neither could push the other out of the way, meaning your solid iron golem would just stand there for all eternity. Kind of useless, although you could trap it to fall over on things. That would be painful.
TheCobra 11-27-06, 11:45 PM	Iron Golems, however, ARE hollow. How else would they be able to move thier joints? Magic, maybe? Do stone golems have stone joints? Anyways, I don't think y'all actually believe that the designers meant for only iron body project against pressure damage because all other metal constructs are glorified tin cans. :P
Raptorial 11-28-06, 12:43 AM	I have a feeling that WizO may have to referee this circus.
Lord_Canius 11-28-06, 01:03 AM	OR!! Or we could send each one of our individual questions to Ask Wizards, or whatever that is. Its a thought.
TheCobra 11-28-06, 09:51 AM	I now think I'm wrong about constructs. They're immune to effects that require a Fort save unless it also affects objects. Nothing in the deep water rules says objects also take damage, so constructs are probably immune. That would help explain why iron body protects the caster. That said, I'm not sure agree about DR not applying to things like falling and pressure damage. Mainly because of this line: "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction." Falling is not listed as something that bypasses DR. In fact, I'd say falling is much more like a natural attack than like a spell or energy damage. Using the PHB definition of attacks, in you get into strange situations. DR applies if a giant drops rock on the PC, but not on if the rock just falls on him? That's odd. As the RAW is unclear, I tend to favor the option that makes more sense.
Occam 11-28-06, 12:27 PM	Wow, I hadn't realized the heat rules were that severe. That's downright absurd. Days above 90F can be uncomfortable, but they shouldn't be incapacitating or lethal. By the RAW, it does look like your average commoner dies in about three or four hours if it's above 90F. He dies as quickly if it's below 40F. Yup, don't visit Texas in the summer if you're not used to it! (Actually, that's not necessarily bad advice.) No wonder they lose to cats! However, if a character is protected from the heat, they can avoid taking this damage. According Sandstorm, a simple parasol or desert outfit will do the trick. Sandstorm also creatures native to the environment immunity to the normal levels of heat. Frostburn does the same for cold. Ah, that's good to know.
DrMorganes 11-28-06, 12:44 PM	Put a human into a airtight room with a bottle of air constantly emiting pure oxygen and watch him sufficate due to the lack of any breathable air. False. The issue is NOT with breathing 100% oxygen. The issue is that - in OUR world, with OUR physiology - we have extreme difficulty breathing in an atmosphere with a CO2 content over 3%. That is, regardless of O2 content in your sealed room, you'll be gasping for breath once the CO2 content meets 3%. More on this here (http://www.velocitypress.com/closedcircuit.shtml). Search the page for "FIO #2".
Mirtek 11-28-06, 01:06 PM	I don't see much evidence for this idea in the description of iron golems. From the SRD: Iron Golems are hollow (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/irongolemsarehollow.html)
sparticus_eleisum 11-28-06, 05:47 PM	Iron Golems are hollow (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/irongolemsarehollow.html) For starters, Pressure = Force/Area and underwater a good aproximation is rgh r being the water density, g the gravity and h the height of the water column. If a golem is hollow, is really hard to be crushed; the void spaces are not bubbles within the material nor airtight chambers, so, when immersed, the water will fill these voids and the pressure is applied on both sides of a somewhat thin(a few inches) iron wall, and iron has a Young Modulus of above 200Gpa, that are needed to compress the material. Now if you have the superficial area of the golem, you can predict when it will crush:)
Fireclave 11-29-06, 02:59 AM	False. The issue is NOT with breathing 100% oxygen. The issue is that - in OUR world, with OUR physiology - we have extreme difficulty breathing in an atmosphere with a CO2 content over 3%. That is, regardless of O2 content in your sealed room, you'll be gasping for breath once the CO2 content meets 3%. More on this here (http://www.velocitypress.com/closedcircuit.shtml). Search the page for "FIO #2". :uh-huh: Uh...what? I think your sarcasim-o-meter is turned a little bit too low DrMorganes. Of course that's false, and I was never trying to say that humans can't breath pure oxygen. Perhaps you didn't grasp exactly what I was trying to say with my use of extreme example. Allow me to explain. My argument is that the rules don't cover everything. To explain my example better, take a look at the rules. The rules say that humanoids need to breath. If they can't, they start to sufficate. However, what the rules don't say is what, exactly, do humanoids need to breath. Is it oxygen? CO2? Nitrogen? The rules are silent on this. Nowhere in the rule books does it say that a humanoid breathes oxygen. Perhaps humans, for example, don't breath oxygen for whatever reason in D&D. A non-oxygen-breathing human trapped in a room full of oxygen (and no other contaminants) would eventually die. We could make this example even more extreme and say that all of the humanoid races breath different gases, with halfings, dwarves, elves, kobolds, ect all breathing different amounts of their respective gases because, again, there are no rules to cover exactly what gases humanoids breath. Of course, this is all not only needlessly complicated, but (assuming we use the real world as our model) doesn't make much sense. There are certain advantages of animal:oxygen::plant:CO2 symbosis that not only makes life possible to evolve on our planet, but probably allowed the physical conditions for complex life as we know it to exist on this planet in the first place. Science aside, it simply just makes since that, like us, D&D humans and other humanoids breath oxygens. Likewise, it makes sense for krackens, like our giant squids, deep-sea fish, invertibrates, and other creatures that live deep in ocean trenches, the kracken can exist naturally in its environment without risk of crushing itself. I apolgize for the confusion and the long-windedness of this post.
angryman 11-29-06, 11:51 AM	It doesn't specifically mention that fish can't breathe oxygen, so I guess they can live on land in D&D too.
TheCobra 11-29-06, 12:36 PM	It doesn't specifically mention that fish can't breathe oxygen, so I guess they can live on land in D&D too. Actually, it does indeed mention that: Aquatic Subtype These creatures always have swim speeds and thus can move in water without making Swim checks. An aquatic creature can breathe underwater. It cannot also breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality. By the way, fish actually do breathe oxygen. They just happen to get it from the water.
Demarest 11-29-06, 01:25 PM	Per Stormwrack, since they're native to blackwater areas, they're immune to pressure damage. Also per Stormwrack, any creature with the [Aquatic] subtype only takes 1d6 damage/minute per 200 feet below the surface, so there's not much to worry about, relatively, even if they are not considered native by the DM. Did everybody else miss this? Or did I glance over this thread too quickly? Stormwrack specifically states somewhere in the first chapter this information.
TheAngryFish 11-30-06, 06:20 PM	How about you find a real kracken and ask it how it lives... "Kraken" dont exist, its a magical critter, but giant squids and other marine life survive underwater because of the same reason that submarines dont crush like empty cans when they go too deep: the inside pressure is equal to outside pressure, once a sumarine's hull cracks, it will begin to fill with water, once it is full it is no longer affected by the pressure, because a fluid of equal density is also pushing outward
Kojiro James 12-01-06, 02:26 AM	It would seem that roses don't exist in D&D because there are no rules covering roses.
angryman 12-01-06, 08:16 AM	It would seem that roses don't exist in D&D because there are no rules covering roses. From the SRD: Flora Various flora exist in the world, including (but not limited to) daisies, tulips, roses, daffodils and any other budding flowers you deem appropriate. Owned. :)
AngryDwarfwithHammer 12-01-06, 09:03 AM	However, given the way a D&D world works under the rules and flavor, it's also common sense in a D&D world for dragons to breath fire and fly, for wizards to break the laws of physics on a daily basis, for fighters to be able to fight all day without tiring, for undead to roam graveyards and battlefields, for untrained commoners to be able to make a 20ft leap 1/20th of the time, for politics to be even more complicated due to the existance of magic, and for cats being challenging apponents for commoners. [/rant] im copying this rant into my sig:clap: :clap: :clap: