Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Demonwolf 01-03-07, 08:18 PM	A friend tells me that the CRs of MMII monsters are way too inaccurate to be used. True?
LukiLoki 01-03-07, 08:42 PM	There's an update document available for download. Some of the outsiders have updated CR's. Mostly, I've found the CRs in the book to be OK, but everything gets dicey above CR 16. (IMO)
dok 01-03-07, 09:11 PM	The MM2 challenge ratings are extrememly hit-or-miss. As the previous poster said, anything over 16 is especially questionable. Also keep an eye out for monsters with spellcasting levels equal to their HD, but higher or equal to their CR. There are several "puzzle-monsters" in the MM2: impossibly hard to defeat unless you use the right strategy, in which case they become a walk. This makes them look overpowered, but provided the PCs are able to adapt to new situations, it's probably fair. In general, anything over CR 10 should be viewed skeptically as well.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-03-07, 09:43 PM	Adamantine Clockwork Horror...*shudders* :weep:
Morwen 01-03-07, 09:46 PM	Adamantine Clockwork Horror...*shudders* :weep: I especially love the "reasoning" behind its low CR...
dok 01-03-07, 11:07 PM	The Adamainte Horror is the quintessential puzzle monster. Let it keep its distance, and you die horribly. Throw a tanglefoot bag on it, and becomes completely helpless. (Don't believe me? Look up the rules for the Concentration skill, calculate the DCs for defensive casting or even just being entangled, and then look at the statblock)
runestar 01-03-07, 11:24 PM	I think the kruichir was a cr25 in MM2, but revised to be cr17 in fiendish codex.:)
theotherdraxen 01-03-07, 11:25 PM	I've heard that they're optimized monsters for optimized players.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-04-07, 01:45 AM	runestar, that creature is in fact in the Fiend Folio
Return of the Flumph 01-04-07, 02:43 AM	A friend tells me that the CRs of MMII monsters are way too inaccurate to be used. True? Yes. Their inane CR's are only one aspect of their overall brokenness, though. They all have random SLAs, totally bizarre and borderline unusable descriptions, and a fair few just plain DON'T WORK. The top three offenders in terms of unusability in my book include the Abyssal Skulker, Abyssal Maw, and Lesser Fiyhr. A CR 3 creature with no attacks? What the f...?
Slagger the Chuul 01-04-07, 04:25 AM	The top three offenders in terms of unusability in my book include the Abyssal Skulker, Abyssal Maw, and Lesser Fiyhr. A CR 3 creature with no attacks? What the f...? The fihyr has a bite attack, it's just that it's still completely useless.
Return of the Flumph 01-04-07, 08:17 AM	The fihyr has a bite attack, it's just that it's still completely useless. Exactly. I made the mistake of using one once. There was a titanic horror from the Nightmare Realm tearing through the city, laying waste to entire neighborhoods. Blood was literally raining from the sky, and lesser fihyrs were being spawned from a gate to the Nightmare Realm. The idea was for the party to escape the downtown area and fight off the little baby nightmares until the big monster went back home. I had built up the atmosphere perfectly, the party was really freaked out, they were running like hell to get away from the rampage zone... And then they fought a lesser fihyr. Its one measly bite attack never hit, and it only did about 1d6 damage. However, it had tons of hit points, which means that the party had to basically stand there and swing at it for about ten minutes of real time without the slightest amount of risk to themselves. Its only special attack is its fear aura, which does nothing besides make the battle take even longer. I got so bored I made the damned thing die when it still had ten hit points left, but the atmosphere was still ruined.
DungeonMaster 01-04-07, 08:49 AM	The MM2 suffers from the same non-core syndrome of poor playtesting as MM3 & 4. Take everything with a grain of salt. There are some excellent monsters (myconids!) and terrible ones. Its one measly bite attack never hit, and it only did about 1d6 damage. However, it had tons of hit points, which means that the party had to basically stand there and swing at it for about ten minutes of real time without the slightest amount of risk to themselves. Its only special attack is its fear aura, which does nothing besides make the battle take even longer. The fiyr isn't that bad. How did your low level party make 10 consecutive will saves? If it had high damage it would kill 3rd level PCs left right and center. Why didn't it go for the wizard or rogue of the party? Wouldn't panicked PCs enhance the mood rather than kill it?
Azar_of_Faerun 01-04-07, 09:08 AM	The saving grace for me was some of the art, and I like a good deal of the monster concepts (Darktentacles, Phoenix, Death Knight template, Legendary Animals, Tauric template, Half Golems and the like) with some reworking, there is gold though.
elondir 01-04-07, 09:09 AM	After reading that, I think I would make the lesser fihyr CR 1 with a lot less hit dice, and make them attack in groups of two to twelve, and combining into great fihyrs if there are enough present after a few rounds. That way they go down quickly, but if you take too long then they become much harder to stop.
Return of the Flumph 01-04-07, 05:26 PM	The fiyr isn't that bad. How did your low level party make 10 consecutive will saves? If it had high damage it would kill 3rd level PCs left right and center. Why didn't it go for the wizard or rogue of the party? Wouldn't panicked PCs enhance the mood rather than kill it? Ten consecutive saves? I said ten minutes real time, not game time (although the difference wasn't all that big). Additionally, the save DC is pathetically low and half of the party members shot at it from outside of the fear radius.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-04-07, 05:32 PM	Adamantine Clockwork Horror -- now with game over laser and GNC cannon. All for CR 10.
Hammerhead 01-04-07, 06:42 PM	Where is the update document please?
Morwen 01-04-07, 06:49 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a
Slagger the Chuul 01-04-07, 09:34 PM	Adamantine Clockwork Horror -- now with game over laser and GNC cannon. All for CR 10. Unless you're packing shatter, then it's generally toast (though you probably still have to deal with its everpresent army of lessers clockwork horrors). Or you hide your metal (by leaving your shinies behind, using a basic illusion, or just keeping your cloak shut), in which case they'll completely ignore you until you attack. As dok mentioned, entangling works wonders, provided that you can get close enough to use it (which is where that little army gets annoying again).
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-05-07, 02:22 AM	Shatter only blinds it. The game over laser (MDJ) is an area effect. Even if you kill it, it still wins.
Slagger the Chuul 01-05-07, 03:12 AM	Shatter only blinds it. The game over laser (MDJ) is an area effect. Even if you kill it, it still wins. If you know about shatter, the chances are that you know about mordenkainen's disjunction as well, which is only short range (60 feet). If you don't know about shatter the chances are that you do what any sensible mage would do and rain fireballs on the whole assembly from the maximum possible distance; they don't have that many hit points and the SR is only average for the CR 12-14 range where you encounter the adamantine variety. However, the chances are pretty small that you won't have heard of a pack of creatures cutting a wide swathe of destruction across the countryside, decimating populated areas, and taking all the metal they find (which is a pretty good kick off for extreme paranoia in most parties, if the reaction to rust monsters is anything to go by). With their typical behaviour, you have little to no chance of running into them without some chance to prepare.
Sleepwalker13666 01-05-07, 04:38 AM	Monster Manuel II came out shortly after the epic level handbook, with the epic level rules being as twichy as they are the epic and near epic monsters where poorly written. It's one of the few books than I feel trully needs to be reprinted with it's full erreta because it was done so poorly. There are some great creatures in there and some welcome returns but it tried pushing the epic rules when the epic rules themselfs where half-assed, and thus ruined some potentially good monsters. And the adamantite horror is a very cruel joke, a rust monster can suck, but it never becomes more than a nuisance, a CR10 should not be able to reduce the party to ruins. As Vaalingrade said even if you kill it, it wins.
Slagger the Chuul 01-05-07, 05:32 AM	And the adamantite horror is a very cruel joke, a rust monster can suck, but it never becomes more than a nuisance, a CR10 should not be able to reduce the party to ruins. As Vaalingrade said even if you kill it, it wins. The adamantine horror (and its assembly) is a challenge you don't walk up to unprepared and expect to come away unscathed, but let's have a look at one of its contemporaries. You hate disintegrate, implosion, and the way mordenkainen's disjunction can hurt your goodies if they (or you) don't make a saving throw? Our friendly Dungeon Master's Guide includes a wail of the banshee trap at CR 10, which can slaughter your entire party on a single failed save. Just while we're in the traps section, though, I'd like to ask how difficult it could possibly be to spread poison on a drawer handle or doorknob and why it should cost thousands of gold pieces to do so. :)
Count Arioch the 28th 01-05-07, 05:51 PM	Because the rules for traps were written as to prevent the PCs from ever making one. Oh, you wanted a GOOD reason. Sorry, there isn't one that I know of.
LivingShadow 01-05-07, 05:58 PM	My DM likes to make us face lots of low CR creatures at once. Now imagine about 16 pulverizers doing their special attack at once. He did a similar tactic with half fiend worgs.
General_Ridley 01-05-07, 06:30 PM	I think the kruichir was a cr25 in MM2, but revised to be cr17 in fiendish codex.:) Klurichir comes from the Fiend Folio, but the point is correct. As such, so it could keep its flavour of "giving Balors nightmares" I took it and advanced it by 10 hit dice (for a +5 to CR) and a nice CR 22.
Morwen 01-05-07, 06:43 PM	Of course, it (the Klurichir) can still summon Balors (unless you choose to strip them of that ability while reducing them to CR17). I'd rather give them some additional abilities and keeping that ability and their flavor than dropping the CR.
Sleepwalker13666 01-07-07, 03:05 PM	The adamantine horror (and its assembly) is a challenge you don't walk up to unprepared and expect to come away unscathed, but let's have a look at one of its contemporaries. You hate disintegrate, implosion, and the way mordenkainen's disjunction can hurt your goodies if they (or you) don't make a saving throw? Our friendly Dungeon Master's Guide includes a wail of the banshee trap at CR 10, which can slaughter your entire party on a single failed save. Just while we're in the traps section, though, I'd like to ask how difficult it could possibly be to spread poison on a drawer handle or doorknob and why it should cost thousands of gold pieces to do so. :) I have no problem with disintergrate, implosion or wail of the banshee, poisons are not a concern of mine either. 1 MD, sucks, but it's managable. Mordenkaines Disjuction at will is not cool, it's not a single saving throw, it's every piece of magic you got, I dont care how high your saves are, a tenth level party is going to have to make a lot of saving throws and with that many roles the odds of botching is greatly increased. An adamantite horror run properly should be able to get it's MD off at least 3 times before the party finishes it off. Now if it had some other attack at will and did a mordenkaines disjunction as it's death throes than I'd consider it fiar, at will it's just the dm cramming his fingers up the pcs rears without lube.
Slagger the Chuul 01-07-07, 09:25 PM	I have no problem with disintergrate, implosion or wail of the banshee, poisons are not a concern of mine either. 1 MD, sucks, but it's managable. You can handle wail of the banshee (which can kill the entire party outright, making it impossible for you to use any items), but not Mordenkainen's disjunction? And guess what happens to your equipment if you die near an assembly of clockwork horrors (assuming the DM rules that disintegrate and implosion leave your equipment intact, which not all do); they'll tear most of it apart for the metal. As disadvantages go, it's pretty hard to top being dead. An adamantite horror run properly should be able to get it's MD off at least 3 times before the party finishes it off. How many parties will hang around for the second and third Mordenkainen's disjunction unless they can deal with it? Despite its high intelligence, the adamantine horror has no way of knowing that magical effects or items are present, except by observing something obvious. It doesn't know about standard adventurer wealth, either. It certainly won't be able to notice enough magical items to make Mordenkainen's disjunction its preferred tactic when it's packing spells that can kill its enemies outright.
Sleepwalker13666 01-07-07, 10:24 PM	You can handle wail of the banshee (which can kill the entire party outright, making it impossible for you to use any items), but not Mordenkainen's disjunction? And guess what happens to your equipment if you die near an assembly of clockwork horrors (assuming the DM rules that disintegrate and implosion leave your equipment intact, which not all do); they'll tear most of it apart for the metal. As disadvantages go, it's pretty hard to top being dead. How many parties will hang around for the second and third Mordenkainen's disjunction unless they can deal with it? Despite its high intelligence, the adamantine horror has no way of knowing that magical effects or items are present, except by observing something obvious. It doesn't know about standard adventurer wealth, either. It certainly won't be able to notice enough magical items to make Mordenkainen's disjunction its preferred tactic when it's packing spells that can kill its enemies outright. I find death to be more managable thanks to ressurection spells, I'll take a level penalty any day, having your magical equipment destroyed is not as easy to get back. Now granted in a total party kill you cant be ressurected, but that is a rarity in the groups I play in/ run for. Now thats just my mentality there, I would prefer a ressurection over being equiped like a 2nd level character at level 10. As far as sticking around, I think since most parties have the never say run mentality, a lot more would fall victem to it's attack with the desire to destroy it. Lastly they would'nt have given it the ability to use it at will unless they thought it would be a favorable tatic for it to use frequently. It has other offensive capabilities, but since the adamantite is the BBEG of the horrors it would most likely stay back using the MD until it ran out of bodyguard minions, in which the party finishes it off. A party that is prepared and knows what it is up against ahead of time can easily defeat it, but that does'nt mean a party will always be prepared for it, and even if they know what thier up against there is still a pretty good chance they get more screwed over than gained.
Slagger the Chuul 01-08-07, 09:53 AM	Now granted in a total party kill you cant be ressurected, but that is a rarity in the groups I play in/ run for. As far as sticking around, I think since most parties have the never say run mentality, a lot more would fall victem to it's attack with the desire to destroy it. Never saying run is a pretty good way to get a total party kill if you run up against something that you can't handle. As far as not being able to use gear goes, death is like Mordenkainen's disjunction without the saving throw. Lastly they would'nt have given it the ability to use it at will unless they thought it would be a favorable tatic for it to use frequently. It has other offensive capabilities, but since the adamantite is the BBEG of the horrors it would most likely stay back using the MD until it ran out of bodyguard minions, in which the party finishes it off. It has all three abilities at will, and even if it hangs back the other two abilities are better for getting rid of the opposition. Disintegrate is the most likely opener, since it has the best range. A party that is prepared and knows what it is up against ahead of time can easily defeat it, but that does'nt mean a party will always be prepared for it, and even if they know what thier up against there is still a pretty good chance they get more screwed over than gained. If an assembly of clockwork horrors is about, you will almost certainly hear about it beforehand. Their basic behavior puts them at odds with any normal community in the area as they tear up the neighbourhood harvesting metal. When a party of adventurers hears about mechanical critters that eat metal and blast all opposition with lightning bolt and disintegrate, they should at least consider proceeding with caution.
Aryxbez 01-09-07, 05:08 PM	The Avolokia's CR 10 I think might be inaccurate Also doesn't seem to have any real advantage over any 8th or even 10th lv parties It also kinda breaks the mold of most abberations.
Sleepwalker13666 01-11-07, 04:07 AM	Never saying run is a pretty good way to get a total party kill if you run up against something that you can't handle. As far as not being able to use gear goes, death is like Mordenkainen's disjunction without the saving throw. It has all three abilities at will, and even if it hangs back the other two abilities are better for getting rid of the opposition. Disintegrate is the most likely opener, since it has the best range. If an assembly of clockwork horrors is about, you will almost certainly hear about it beforehand. Their basic behavior puts them at odds with any normal community in the area as they tear up the neighbourhood harvesting metal. When a party of adventurers hears about mechanical critters that eat metal and blast all opposition with lightning bolt and disintegrate, they should at least consider proceeding with caution. Your debate is not convincing me, even if a character dies, you get to write up a new character properly equiped rather than to try and play a tenth level character with broken toys, you work hard for your things and having them turned into crap at high-mid levels is a seriously low blow, sure I'd still play the character if all things where lost, but being underequiped is a frustrating chore, and I play to have fun not be frustrated, I get enough frustration at work. Stuff may not make the characters, but it is apart of them, and it's a part I enjoy. It may have abilities besides MD, but it knows what MD does, so as long as it has worthless minions at it's dispossal I think it would contiue to try and deflate the opposition until it was forced to defend itself, thats what I would do with MD at will, considering it's minions will be throwing dice of damage around, why should it waste it's time dealing damage when it can lower the pcs to it's minions size? Also just because you run into the Horrors does not mean you know what they are, nor about thier rarer overlord, given the lesser 3 have nothing like that, the party would in no way assume they are up against MD at will. And a good adventuring party that can destroy the lesser Horrors is not going to say "Okay lets let this town fend for itself while we research these metal bugs." especially when facing the lesser horrors does'nt prove to be much of a threat. If you hear rumors about it in a different city fine you might take the time to research, you stumble across it your screwed, well at least your stuff is. Your research arguement is only valid when the characters actually have the time to do it.
Slagger the Chuul 01-11-07, 09:52 AM	Your debate is not convincing me, even if a character dies, you get to write up a new character properly equiped rather than to try and play a tenth level character with broken toys, you work hard for your things and having them turned into crap at high-mid levels is a seriously low blow, sure I'd still play the character if all things where lost, but being underequiped is a frustrating chore, and I play to have fun not be frustrated, I get enough frustration at work. Stuff may not make the characters, but it is apart of them, and it's a part I enjoy. Did you never face the sunder option in combat, get disarmed and have to flee (leaving the weapon behind), had an item get disintegrated, or lost something because you rolled a natural 1 on your save? Do your enemies put you in cells with all your equipment, and are you somehow immune to thieves? Have you never once fought a rust monster, black pudding, nightwalker, remorhaz, or disenchanter? If you want your equipment to be immune to damage (or instant destruction, for that matter), you'd better spend all your gold on grafts. It may have abilities besides MD, but it knows what MD does, so as long as it has worthless minions at it's dispossal I think it would contiue to try and deflate the opposition until it was forced to defend itself, thats what I would do with MD at will, considering it's minions will be throwing dice of damage around, why should it waste it's time dealing damage when it can lower the pcs to it's minions size? Why should it waste its time cutting the PCs down to size when it can simply kill them outright? It has medium range with disintegrate which is better than the other two options if it wants to sit back, and if they get into close range it can instantly kill them with implosion. In fact, the adamantine horror can start blasting attackers with disintegrate before any of its lesser kin get into range. Even if the attackers survive the barrage, their hit points are reduced, making them easier for the gold and platinum horrors to pick off with lightning bolts once they enter close range. Against a small group of enemies (like adventurers) it makes sense for the horrors to focus their attacks on one creature at a time, combining their efforts to pick them off one by one. Mordenkainen's disjunction might have the possibility of weakening the attackers, but it's a blind shot for the adamantine horror, since it doesn't know if its enemies have any magical equipment in the first place. Disintegration works against anything. Also just because you run into the Horrors does not mean you know what they are, nor about thier rarer overlord, given the lesser 3 have nothing like that, the party would in no way assume they are up against MD at will. And a good adventuring party that can destroy the lesser Horrors is not going to say "Okay lets let this town fend for itself while we research these metal bugs." especially when facing the lesser horrors does'nt prove to be much of a threat. If you hear rumors about it in a different city fine you might take the time to research, you stumble across it your screwed, well at least your stuff is. Your research arguement is only valid when the characters actually have the time to do it. But what they are likely to know from incidental reports is that the horrors are dangerous to items (metal ones at least), and use ranged magic attacks. They have reason to be cautious (if they own any metal gear), and possess knowledge of the general kind of attacks that the horrors use. Not knowing which specific spell-like abilities they have is no worse than not knowing what spells an enemy sorcerer has to unleash. It's not that uncommon for a major spellcaster to have a scroll beyond his normal ability to cast "just in case" (although not always for attack). Mordenkainen's disjunction is something that players hate, but the adamantine horror doesn't really care about that if it can kill them.
Callon 01-11-07, 01:59 PM	I was just going to post about this topic with regards to several of my WotC books including the MMII, which I just got in the mail. For one thing... yugoloths. Can someone please tell me how the yugoloths in MMII and Manual of the Planes warrant their CRs? They seem to be far too high given special abilities that appear to be no more impressive than demons or devils and that they have extremely low attack bonuses for their CR. Then compare the yugoloths to similar CR'ed kythons from the Book of Vile Darkness. It seems to me that for the same/similar CR, the kythons are many times more powerful and thus more dangerous in a fight than the yugoloths. Also compare to the CR9 devil in MMII (I forget its name). If I remember correctly it gets attacks of +25/20/15/10 and does fairly substantial damage, yet it's only rated as a CR9? Huh? It also has the usual DR and such that other devils have. Who comes up with these CRs? Am I just not playing the creatures right when I run a game, so somehow things like the yugoloths are tougher than they look and the kythons and that devil I mentioned are not that bad? I'm baffled.
LivingShadow 01-11-07, 04:47 PM	Look at the update some of the CRs and abilities changed.
Callon 01-11-07, 05:14 PM	Look at the update some of the CRs and abilities changed. Am I missing something? I checked the errata. I don't see any CR changes in Monster Manual II or Manual of the Planes errata and there is no errata document for the Book of Vile Darkness.
LivingShadow 01-11-07, 05:21 PM	It is right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a).
Morwen 01-11-07, 05:32 PM	Also compare to the CR9 devil in MMII (I forget its name). If I remember correctly it gets attacks of +25/20/15/10 and does fairly substantial damage, yet it's only rated as a CR9? Huh? It also has the usual DR and such that other devils have. Yes, the MM2 Malebranche looks like a TPK on legs at CR 9. Luckily, the Fiendish Codex II update of the Malebranche puts it at a more reasonable CR 14 :)
Callon 01-11-07, 05:34 PM	It is right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a). Cool, thanks. That document will be useful. I notice none of the CRs of devils, demons, or yugoloths that bothered me were changed. I guess I'm still left with making that call myself. If I think the CR is off, I'll change it or alter the creature stats a bit.
LivingShadow 01-11-07, 05:39 PM	Also Pulverizers should allow a save to resist their special attack. With DM mentioned above: 16 or so pulverizers + all doing thier special attack = pain Luckily my rogue char was out of range.
Sleepwalker13666 01-11-07, 08:10 PM	Did you never face the sunder option in combat, get disarmed and have to flee (leaving the weapon behind), had an item get disintegrated, or lost something because you rolled a natural 1 on your save? Do your enemies put you in cells with all your equipment, and are you somehow immune to thieves? Have you never once fought a rust monster, black pudding, nightwalker, remorhaz, or disenchanter? If you want your equipment to be immune to damage (or instant destruction, for that matter), you'd better spend all your gold on grafts. Why should it waste its time cutting the PCs down to size when it can simply kill them outright? It has medium range with disintegrate which is better than the other two options if it wants to sit back, and if they get into close range it can instantly kill them with implosion. In fact, the adamantine horror can start blasting attackers with disintegrate before any of its lesser kin get into range. Even if the attackers survive the barrage, their hit points are reduced, making them easier for the gold and platinum horrors to pick off with lightning bolts once they enter close range. Against a small group of enemies (like adventurers) it makes sense for the horrors to focus their attacks on one creature at a time, combining their efforts to pick them off one by one. Mordenkainen's disjunction might have the possibility of weakening the attackers, but it's a blind shot for the adamantine horror, since it doesn't know if its enemies have any magical equipment in the first place. Disintegration works against anything. But what they are likely to know from incidental reports is that the horrors are dangerous to items (metal ones at least), and use ranged magic attacks. They have reason to be cautious (if they own any metal gear), and possess knowledge of the general kind of attacks that the horrors use. Not knowing which specific spell-like abilities they have is no worse than not knowing what spells an enemy sorcerer has to unleash. It's not that uncommon for a major spellcaster to have a scroll beyond his normal ability to cast "just in case" (although not always for attack). Mordenkainen's disjunction is something that players hate, but the adamantine horror doesn't really care about that if it can kill them. Sunder can only be done to one weapon at a time, disarm is one item at a time, if you get caught by thieves you still have a chance to get it back by escaping, illing them and taking your stuff back, rust monster is one item at a time, black pudding is one item at a time, nightwalker, remorhaz and disenchanter one item at a time. It should waste the time becuase it has disposable minions, it can afford to lets it's minions be wasted while it softens them up. Dead scrap minions are just going to be turned into more minions. Lastly: Who says you get to hear reports? You keep trying to fall back on this, IF YOU DONT HEAR ABOUT THEM YOU CANT PREPARE FOR THEM. Just because they show up does'nt mean you find out, you could be traveling between cities and not get the chance to hear the local news that metal bugs are eating the city, then low and behold you find a city full of giant metal bugs, the three lesser not being any real big deal, maybe dangerous in numbers but overall not that tough, you continue fighting them off because its what needs to be done. Finally you find the AH and...drum role please...your equiped like a secound level character. Real nice way for your heroics to be thanked huh? Like I sadi earlier if it did MD as a death throes I would never question it, because it can do it at will it is a sick joke.
Slagger the Chuul 01-11-07, 09:39 PM	Sunder can only be done to one weapon at a time, disarm is one item at a time, if you get caught by thieves you still have a chance to get it back by escaping, illing them and taking your stuff back, rust monster is one item at a time, black pudding is one item at a time, nightwalker, remorhaz and disenchanter one item at a time. For most of them, the danger comes as often as you hit, and it mainly affects weapons, which are some of the most expensive items that you own. It should waste the time becuase it has disposable minions, it can afford to lets it's minions be wasted while it softens them up. Dead scrap minions are just going to be turned into more minions. You mean that the adamantine horror should fight in a substandard manner, allowing opponents a better chance to break through, and putting itself at greater risk to use a spell-like ability that won't have any effect against the vast majority of creatures it encounters? Even if it can restore minions, why would it want to go to the trouble when it has absolutely no need to do so? Lastly: Who says you get to hear reports? You keep trying to fall back on this, IF YOU DONT HEAR ABOUT THEM YOU CANT PREPARE FOR THEM. Just because they show up does'nt mean you find out, you could be traveling between cities and not get the chance to hear the local news that metal bugs are eating the city, then low and behold you find a city full of giant metal bugs, the three lesser not being any real big deal, maybe dangerous in numbers but overall not that tough, you continue fighting them off because its what needs to be done. Finally you find the AH and...drum role please...your equiped like a secound level character. Real nice way for your heroics to be thanked huh? Like I sadi earlier if it did MD as a death throes I would never question it, because it can do it at will it is a sick joke. I keep mentioning it because they're nearly impossible to miss. Yes, you could encounter them the very first time that they attack a city, with no warning. Any monster will be significantly more difficult if it appears from nowhere and attacks without warning. For example, if you encounter a medusa without running into stone statues first (which is cheap, but common), it becomes more difficult than if you have a warning. A delver could suddenly leap out of the ground and slap your weapons and armour into slime, and yes, that would be more difficult. If an assembly of clockwork horrors turns up from nowhere without appropriate foreshadowing, and a clash with their ultimate leader turns into nothing more than a random encounter, it will be more difficult than normal as well. Even in such circumstances, the first one that attacks you will be the adamantine horror, simply because it can hammer you with that lovable disintegrate. Now, at that range, you don't charge into combat (because it's probably still too far at this time, and there's a screen of lesser horrors advancing towards you). Once it's used disintegrate the first time, it becomes better and better to keep using it, because each attack leaves you with fewer hit points, and that much closer to destruction by any of the horrors. Frankly, I don't know why they even bothered to equip the adamantine horror with Mordenkainen's disjunction in the first place, since it can't evalute the magical strength of its attackers, and has better weapons for getting rid of enemies that come in adventurer-sized portions. It doesn't matter that it can do it at will, because bothering to use it at all is a waste of time unless it happens to be faced with a sizable group of people carrying items that are obviously magical.
Sleepwalker13666 01-12-07, 12:49 AM	Frankly, I don't know why they even bothered to equip the adamantine horror with Mordenkainen's disjunction in the first place, since it can't evalute the magical strength of its attackers, and has better weapons for getting rid of enemies that come in adventurer-sized portions. It doesn't matter that it can do it at will, because bothering to use it at all is a waste of time unless it happens to be faced with a sizable group of people carrying items that are obviously magical. This is an area I agree with you, it should not have it at will, and because of it the monster becomes a sick joke. Theres always a chance to loose equipment in any encounter, even if the monsters dont have a way to destroy it (like your band of thieves example),this is a risk I understand and am willing to take, loosing an item or 2 is an inconovience, something that can destroy everything you own of magical property at will is a whole different matter. A DM might not be as cruel as he can be with an adamantie horror (given your referance to the other powers I would say you are one of those) but I play with two different groups and run for two different groups and none us 3 DMs will touch the AH because we find it to be rediculously cruel for a CR 10.
Hammerhead 01-12-07, 01:18 AM	This may sound dumb but I don't see the CRs in the MM2 PDF where are they?
Slagger the Chuul 01-12-07, 04:00 AM	A DM might not be as cruel as he can be with an adamantie horror (given your referance to the other powers I would say you are one of those) but I play with two different groups and run for two different groups and none us 3 DMs will touch the AH because we find it to be rediculously cruel for a CR 10. I would call it cruel if the DM runs the adamantine horror's assembly to nerf the party, instead of sticking to what the horror should care about. If the DM is using Mordenkainen's disjunction every round, it would be unfair because the horror has no reason to cripple the party instead of killing them. It's a different story if the party throws down something obvious like a wall of fire and the adamantine horror uses the ability as a super-dispel to clear the way for its minions.
LivingShadow 01-12-07, 04:52 PM	It is at the end of the individual monster entrys. Most creatures don't have a change.
Sleepwalker13666 01-15-07, 04:50 AM	I would call it cruel if the DM runs the adamantine horror's assembly to nerf the party, instead of sticking to what the horror should care about. If the DM is using Mordenkainen's disjunction every round, it would be unfair because the horror has no reason to cripple the party instead of killing them. It's a different story if the party throws down something obvious like a wall of fire and the adamantine horror uses the ability as a super-dispel to clear the way for its minions. Agreed.
Aryxbez 01-15-07, 01:53 PM	Is the Avolokia worth it's CR of 10?
Da Black Cat 01-18-07, 06:17 PM	A friend tells me that the CRs of MMII monsters are way too inaccurate to be used. True? Unfortunately, yes, even with the PDF update. It's about time the MMII was released as a proper book again, tweaked and fully 3.5 compliant (fingers crossed for something akin to the Special Edition Monster Manual). - :(
Slagger the Chuul 01-19-07, 04:20 AM	Unfortunately, yes, even with the PDF update. It's about time the MMII was released as a proper book again, tweaked and fully 3.5 compliant (fingers crossed for something akin to the Special Edition Monster Manual). - :( A Monster Compendium (like the Spell Compendium) would be very useful for almost any DM, but the book would be enormous. It's amazingly tempting, though; I'm always having to hunt through multiple books when running things. It'd need to have a handful of ribbon bookmarks attached, and would definitely be a deluxe product. It'd be quite the status symbol for a DM, and would stop players guessing at what monsters you were using by seeing the cover.
Da Black Cat 01-19-07, 08:42 AM	A Monster Compendium (like the Spell Compendium) would be very useful for almost any DM, but the book would be enormous. Yeah, and I'm the kind of person who'd find one monster out-of-whack and reject the whole book. - :D Really, though, it's just the MMII I want - it just seems out of place, what with all the other Monster Manual's being printed with 3.5 rules.
Slagger the Chuul 01-19-07, 05:06 PM	Yeah, and I'm the kind of person who'd find one monster out-of-whack and reject the whole book. - :D Really, though, it's just the MMII I want - it just seems out of place, what with all the other Monster Manual's being printed with 3.5 rules. Besides, the monsters would all be in the new stat block style, which I would love, but many of the posters here would reject because they're just unfamiliar with it.
Da Black Cat 01-19-07, 06:00 PM	Besides, the monsters would all be in the new stat block style, which I would love, but many of the posters here would reject because they're just unfamiliar with it. I don't think I've seen the new style, but I'd prefer an update of the MMII to have the same style as the Special Edition MMI...that I also haven't seen. - :D
Slagger the Chuul 01-19-07, 08:22 PM	Here's a recent example of the stat block in the D&D Fight Club article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20061222a). It contains many (but not all) of the possible elements that appear in the stat block (for example, it doesn't list a miss chance, since the creature is not incorporeal). The design is broken down into encounter, defense, offense, basic statistics, and so forth. It makes the creatures much easier to run without missing anything by sorting all the information into relevant sections. When you need to attack, you glance at the offensive section for things that the creature can do, when it's struck in return, it's over to the defense section, where all the details are neatly laid out. The old stat block threw a lot of data at the DM, but it was all just jammed together and had to be sorted out on the fly. It was easy to overlook the creature's use of a particular feat for its attacks, or miss a specific defense because it was at the end of a long line containing every single one of the creature's special qualities. The new design takes longer to write up, but it's worth it for the ease of use.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-20-07, 12:41 AM	I like the new stat block better too. Here here Chuul! :)
Da Black Cat 01-20-07, 04:27 AM	[Double Post] - :embarrass
Da Black Cat 01-20-07, 04:41 AM	Here's a recent example of the stat block in the D&D Fight Club article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20061222a). Thanks for the link. Finally, they've put languages in the stat-block. - :) EDIT: The rest is awesome, too (I especially like the bit about 'Senses')! You're right, Chuul, it really organises things far more reasonably. Does anyone know if the Special Edition Monster Manual uses this? Also, is it just me, or is 'Environment' (or a similar criteria) missing?
Kraleck 01-20-07, 08:17 AM	I am sick of people *****ing and moaning about the Adamantine Clockwork Horror's at will abilities making its CR too low. If it is forced to make any sort of Concentration check, it's basically screwed. Plus the thing must be tipped off as to the presence of magic items or the DM is metagaming. Constantly Metagaming DM = Bad DM.
Slagger the Chuul 01-21-07, 08:14 AM	Also, is it just me, or is 'Environment' (or a similar criteria) missing? They've gone more freeform in that regard by including descriptive write-ups for ecology, society, and so forth after the statistics block. Those details aren't necessary to run an encounter, so there's no need to put them in the stat block. The "organization" line is also removed from the stat block, and each creature now includes one or more example encounters, complete with their total Encounter Level (which saves you adding up the Challenge Ratings for group encounters). This makes it much easier for the DM to run the example encounters straight from the book (although you'll obviously still need to work out the EL for encounters you design yourself; there's no getting around that :) ). Treasure is likewise given a descriptive section telling you what sort of items the creature carts about, and although I've seen entries in a few books that neglected it, it ideally presents the total monetary value of treasure (if any) for the creature, which is another needless flip to the DMG shot dead. These sections are omitted from this particular NPC, since he's an individual with his own particular story and listed equipment, but they appear in the narzugon entry in Tyrants of the Nine Hells.
Khalarak Ironclaw 01-22-07, 07:35 PM	True, but traps are always extremely deadly for their CR. Why? Because of rogues. A good rogue doing his job can completely neutralize that wail with little or no risk to the rest of the party. Sure, slaughtering a whole party on a single failed save is rough, but that save happens only *after* a series of botched search/disable checks. The adamantine horror is smart. It can strategize, maneuver, take advantage of party weaknesses. It can retreat when it realizes its overmatched and call in an army of minions to cover it. A trap can do none of these things.
V8122 01-22-07, 08:07 PM	The adamnatine clockwork horror- everyone seems to be forgetting this- THERES ONLY ONE!!That makes the thing a little less deadly. Beat it once and your done (in that cam-pain( yes, its a terrible pun))! Fight it-ONCE! Beat it-ONCE! Now I have finished ranting.
Zumarai 01-23-07, 12:38 PM	All CR’s can be inaccurate depending on the party composition.
ZeronHitaro 01-23-07, 01:50 PM	I am sick of people *****ing and moaning about the Adamantine Clockwork Horror's at will abilities making its CR too low. If it is forced to make any sort of Concentration check, it's basically screwed. Plus the thing must be tipped off as to the presence of magic items or the DM is metagaming. Constantly Metagaming DM = Bad DM. *applause* Exactly. After looking over all the general complaints about the ACH it all comes down to this. 1. It's a "puzzle" monster and a lower level BBEG. AKA: Not for random encounters. 2. It has definite weaknesses which should be able to be determined by: A. Knowledge checks B. Observation C. Reports from other people who's towns they'd ravaged 3. As a BBEG, if you are forced to fight one with no warning, don't blame the CR. You have a broken DM, not a broken monster.