Are ogre magi a different race from ogre? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are ogre magi a different race from ogre? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RecycledDM
07-18-06, 01:53 AM Are ogre magi a completely different race / species from ogre?

Or are they some kind of "genetic mutation" or perhaps a recessive gene-type thing?

Could ogre parents give birth to an ogre mage (or vice versa)?
Ramenth
07-18-06, 02:08 AM Not sure of the context you're talking about... As far as I know it depends on the setting?
runestar
07-18-06, 02:51 AM The ogre bloodline in UA suggest that they are really one and the same, or in the very least, the ogre magi is some sort of super-evolved ogre. :P
Silverthumb128
07-18-06, 03:28 AM I've always looked at it as the difference between Mountain Dwarves & Duergar(as an example). They come from the same/similar ancestry, but are a racial offshoot of each other. It probably is an evolutionary thing.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
07-18-06, 02:08 PM They aren't the same. Indeed, Ogre Magi probably aren't even related to Ogres.
cwslyclgh
07-18-06, 04:08 PM I agree with RLY for the most part, although I think they probably are distantly related... probably about as closely related to each other as gorilla's are to humans.
savant_warlord13
07-18-06, 04:42 PM I think they are as closely related as the DM wants them to be. In my campaign, whether you are a regular ogre or ogre mage depends on a single rare recessive gene. This means that two ogre mages automatically produce a baby ogre mage, but ogres who carry this gene might produce agre mages as well.
Verelor
07-18-06, 05:19 PM So my ogre-slaying knife (TM) won't work against ogre mages!? It's got a +9 against ogres!!! :D
mvincent
07-18-06, 06:53 PM The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm) say:
"The ogre mage is a more intelligent and dangerous variety of its mundane cousin."

(also note that they appear to stem from oriental legends of ogre-like creatures.)
Kenzuki
07-18-06, 06:54 PM If an Ogre Magi is not an Ogre, why is it called an Ogre Magi?
cwslyclgh
07-18-06, 07:50 PM That could be as basic a reason as a general resemeblance... for instance... Spider Monkies are not spiders, Panda Bears are not Bears (neither are Koula Bears for that matter), Bugbears are neither bugs nor bears, Mountian Lions are not Lions (In fact mountian lions, that is cougars are not even technically a great cat, they are a lesser cat that grows to large sizes)... and so on and so forth.
Rerecros
07-18-06, 08:23 PM It may be that when sorcery develops in ogres it causes added bonuses.

Of corse there no right answer, the DM can decide the inner workings of his campaign. Though usually evolution tends to take a backseat to having the gods create the races.
Verelor
07-18-06, 09:03 PM Wrong, wrong, wrong. The core rules themselves state that ogre mages are simply "a more intelligent and dangerous variety of its mundane cousin." From that, we can only assume that the ogre mage is a powerful variant of the standard ogre. Actually, 'assume' is not quite the appropriate word. That sentence alone removes all doubt that the ogre mage is an ogre.
cwslyclgh
07-18-06, 09:52 PM it is the term cousin which actually casts controversy upon it V... when speaking of animals (and by extension fantasy creatures, I would guess) you generaly use the term "cousins" to mean a related but seperate species.

for example primatologist constatly call gorillas, chimps, orangutans, etc... "our cousins"

I do not doubt that Ogres and Ogre Magi in all probablility share the same Family, and I give it even odds that they even share the same Genus, but I find it highly improbable that they share the same species.
mvincent
07-18-06, 11:20 PM you generaly use the term "cousins" to mean a related but seperate species.Correct. The rules also say things like:
"More intelligent than their smaller cousins, worgs speak their own language"
"brain moles are almost indistinguishable from their common animal cousins."
"Girallons are savage, magical cousins of the gorilla."
"Metallic dragons make up the good branch of dragonkind, but they are every bit as aggressive as their evil cousins"
etc.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.Anytime I see someone say something like this, they have almost always be wrong (and so deserving of some mockery, if one were so inclined).
Verelor
07-18-06, 11:25 PM I never said they were the same species. According to ecological science, if two different organisms are even marginally different in genetics, they are not the same species. By cousins, it is safe to assume that ogre mages are of the same genus as ogres (which means they can perhaps breed with them but the offspring will probably be strange and sterile).
RecycledDM
07-19-06, 12:56 AM Thanks for all the ideas, guys.

I think I'll go with a variant of Savant Warlord13's idea...

Call it magic, call it genetics, call it what you will...every 3rd generation or so, an exceptionally bright and magically gifted ogre--an ogre mage--is born into a tribe of ogres. Such an offspring is treated like the Dalai Lama and groomed from birth for leadership.
cwslyclgh
07-19-06, 01:02 AM Such an offspring is treated like the Dalai Lama and groomed from birth for leadership.yes because that is exactly in character for what a tribe of CE people with an average int of 6 would do to a baby born "different". ;)
Verelor
07-19-06, 01:06 AM yes because that is exactly in character for what a tribe of CE people with an average int of 6 would do to a baby born "different".

They see its faintly glowing eyes and magic-laced skin when it comes out of the womb and are like "shinneeeeyyy..."
Mithral Icesilver
07-19-06, 08:05 AM I get the impression that ogre magi are the same thing as ogres, but ogres aren't the same thing as ogre magi. It's like the difference between being "Drow" and being "Drow from Menzoberranzan."
retillin
07-19-06, 09:28 AM I would say they are much like drow and normal pbh elves. ever able to interbreed if for some sick reason and magi would want to. but, i really enjoy how dragonlance has used them. in the begining all ogres were ogre magi, but they fell from grace and became more evil and savage. in doing this they deevolved into present day ogres. but maybe a spark of blood is still there and have a chance to pop out every once in awhile. or, even whole tribes (small ones) that breed true and lead like shamans type. anyways, just a few ideas
countbubba
07-19-06, 10:00 AM Orinigally posted by Verelor

So my ogre-slaying knife (TM) won't work against ogre mages!? It's got a +9 against ogres!!!

:) I'm glad someone else watches 8-bit D&D....

Anyway, in Oriental Adventures, it states that the ogre mage is actually a type of oni, which would explain the ogre mage's magic abilities. Perhaps the ogre mage was the result of cross-breeding between ogres and oni? It's entirely possible.
Callahan
07-19-06, 10:37 AM :) I'm glad someone else watches 8-bit D&D....

Anyway, in Oriental Adventures, it states that the ogre mage is actually a type of oni, which would explain the ogre mage's magic abilities. Perhaps the ogre mage was the result of cross-breeding between ogres and oni? It's entirely possible.
The Dead Ale Wives you mean.

And yes in 2nd ed The ogre mages were the standard Oni (Japanese Ogres). Later on they merged and became the same species.

I think the maid reason for the change comes from the common mix of Ogres and Ogre Mages within games. Eventually it became common sense to put them in to the same species.
lugnut71
07-19-06, 12:09 PM Although it is kind of hard to talk about species and such when a dragon can produce with a human and make a viable reproducing offspring. Not that that is the measuring stick for determining species anymore. I always pictured ogre mage as a separate race. Related but as far above ogres as humans are above spider monkeys.
Cravensson
07-19-06, 12:21 PM I imagine it is somewhat like the relationship between goblins and hobgoblins. Same family, different critter.
frankthedm
07-19-06, 12:46 PM If an Ogre Magi is not an Ogre, why is it called an Ogre Magi?Because a gaijin felt Oni were mythological close enough to European ogres to be referred to as such and added “Magi” due to their numerous magical abilities. They both have the giant type in 3e so giantbane weapons nail them both.

This thread gives me an idea for an Ogre Mage Warlord. Gaigakusu Gari, has a nice sound to it.
Bruunwald
07-19-06, 01:07 PM The entries state they are cousins, as others have pointed out. I guess I'm okay with that, though from what I understand of the ogre mage's oni origins, they seem much more like demons (read: powerful spirits).
JBW
07-19-06, 03:46 PM In my games I ditched the Ogre Magi as written in the MM and replaced it with a template that - when added to an Ogre - creates the creature commonly referred to as an Ogre Mage.
Rerecros
07-19-06, 04:30 PM From what I herd of oni, their lawful (evil?) outsiders.
They would probably kill an ogre on sight, they are torturers in hell.
BladefellMaster
07-19-06, 06:02 PM .... Perhaps the ogre mage was the result of cross-breeding between ogres and oni? It's entirely possible.

I agree with bubba here. They are the offspring off ogres and another supernatural species, findes, oni, something or other, that can breed truem, or with true ogres possibly. I seem to recall reading something way back in the original monstrous compendium, or fiend folio maybe, to that effect. I think it was some kind of deliberate breeding experiment by a demon lord or dark god.
frankthedm
07-19-06, 07:50 PM This thread makes me wish Wotc would do a Kamigawa campaign setting as the 3.5 version of OA.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RecycledDM 07-18-06, 01:53 AM	Are ogre magi a completely different race / species from ogre? Or are they some kind of "genetic mutation" or perhaps a recessive gene-type thing? Could ogre parents give birth to an ogre mage (or vice versa)?
Ramenth 07-18-06, 02:08 AM	Not sure of the context you're talking about... As far as I know it depends on the setting?
runestar 07-18-06, 02:51 AM	The ogre bloodline in UA suggest that they are really one and the same, or in the very least, the ogre magi is some sort of super-evolved ogre. :P
Silverthumb128 07-18-06, 03:28 AM	I've always looked at it as the difference between Mountain Dwarves & Duergar(as an example). They come from the same/similar ancestry, but are a racial offshoot of each other. It probably is an evolutionary thing.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-18-06, 02:08 PM	They aren't the same. Indeed, Ogre Magi probably aren't even related to Ogres.
cwslyclgh 07-18-06, 04:08 PM	I agree with RLY for the most part, although I think they probably are distantly related... probably about as closely related to each other as gorilla's are to humans.
savant_warlord13 07-18-06, 04:42 PM	I think they are as closely related as the DM wants them to be. In my campaign, whether you are a regular ogre or ogre mage depends on a single rare recessive gene. This means that two ogre mages automatically produce a baby ogre mage, but ogres who carry this gene might produce agre mages as well.
Verelor 07-18-06, 05:19 PM	So my ogre-slaying knife (TM) won't work against ogre mages!? It's got a +9 against ogres!!! :D
mvincent 07-18-06, 06:53 PM	The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm) say: "The ogre mage is a more intelligent and dangerous variety of its mundane cousin." (also note that they appear to stem from oriental legends of ogre-like creatures.)
Kenzuki 07-18-06, 06:54 PM	If an Ogre Magi is not an Ogre, why is it called an Ogre Magi?
cwslyclgh 07-18-06, 07:50 PM	That could be as basic a reason as a general resemeblance... for instance... Spider Monkies are not spiders, Panda Bears are not Bears (neither are Koula Bears for that matter), Bugbears are neither bugs nor bears, Mountian Lions are not Lions (In fact mountian lions, that is cougars are not even technically a great cat, they are a lesser cat that grows to large sizes)... and so on and so forth.
Rerecros 07-18-06, 08:23 PM	It may be that when sorcery develops in ogres it causes added bonuses. Of corse there no right answer, the DM can decide the inner workings of his campaign. Though usually evolution tends to take a backseat to having the gods create the races.
Verelor 07-18-06, 09:03 PM	Wrong, wrong, wrong. The core rules themselves state that ogre mages are simply "a more intelligent and dangerous variety of its mundane cousin." From that, we can only assume that the ogre mage is a powerful variant of the standard ogre. Actually, 'assume' is not quite the appropriate word. That sentence alone removes all doubt that the ogre mage is an ogre.
cwslyclgh 07-18-06, 09:52 PM	it is the term cousin which actually casts controversy upon it V... when speaking of animals (and by extension fantasy creatures, I would guess) you generaly use the term "cousins" to mean a related but seperate species. for example primatologist constatly call gorillas, chimps, orangutans, etc... "our cousins" I do not doubt that Ogres and Ogre Magi in all probablility share the same Family, and I give it even odds that they even share the same Genus, but I find it highly improbable that they share the same species.
mvincent 07-18-06, 11:20 PM	you generaly use the term "cousins" to mean a related but seperate species.Correct. The rules also say things like: "More intelligent than their smaller cousins, worgs speak their own language" "brain moles are almost indistinguishable from their common animal cousins." "Girallons are savage, magical cousins of the gorilla." "Metallic dragons make up the good branch of dragonkind, but they are every bit as aggressive as their evil cousins" etc. Wrong, wrong, wrong.Anytime I see someone say something like this, they have almost always be wrong (and so deserving of some mockery, if one were so inclined).
Verelor 07-18-06, 11:25 PM	I never said they were the same species. According to ecological science, if two different organisms are even marginally different in genetics, they are not the same species. By cousins, it is safe to assume that ogre mages are of the same genus as ogres (which means they can perhaps breed with them but the offspring will probably be strange and sterile).
RecycledDM 07-19-06, 12:56 AM	Thanks for all the ideas, guys. I think I'll go with a variant of Savant Warlord13's idea... Call it magic, call it genetics, call it what you will...every 3rd generation or so, an exceptionally bright and magically gifted ogre--an ogre mage--is born into a tribe of ogres. Such an offspring is treated like the Dalai Lama and groomed from birth for leadership.
cwslyclgh 07-19-06, 01:02 AM	Such an offspring is treated like the Dalai Lama and groomed from birth for leadership.yes because that is exactly in character for what a tribe of CE people with an average int of 6 would do to a baby born "different". ;)
Verelor 07-19-06, 01:06 AM	yes because that is exactly in character for what a tribe of CE people with an average int of 6 would do to a baby born "different". They see its faintly glowing eyes and magic-laced skin when it comes out of the womb and are like "shinneeeeyyy..."
Mithral Icesilver 07-19-06, 08:05 AM	I get the impression that ogre magi are the same thing as ogres, but ogres aren't the same thing as ogre magi. It's like the difference between being "Drow" and being "Drow from Menzoberranzan."
retillin 07-19-06, 09:28 AM	I would say they are much like drow and normal pbh elves. ever able to interbreed if for some sick reason and magi would want to. but, i really enjoy how dragonlance has used them. in the begining all ogres were ogre magi, but they fell from grace and became more evil and savage. in doing this they deevolved into present day ogres. but maybe a spark of blood is still there and have a chance to pop out every once in awhile. or, even whole tribes (small ones) that breed true and lead like shamans type. anyways, just a few ideas
countbubba 07-19-06, 10:00 AM	Orinigally posted by Verelor So my ogre-slaying knife (TM) won't work against ogre mages!? It's got a +9 against ogres!!! :) I'm glad someone else watches 8-bit D&D.... Anyway, in Oriental Adventures, it states that the ogre mage is actually a type of oni, which would explain the ogre mage's magic abilities. Perhaps the ogre mage was the result of cross-breeding between ogres and oni? It's entirely possible.
Callahan 07-19-06, 10:37 AM	:) I'm glad someone else watches 8-bit D&D.... Anyway, in Oriental Adventures, it states that the ogre mage is actually a type of oni, which would explain the ogre mage's magic abilities. Perhaps the ogre mage was the result of cross-breeding between ogres and oni? It's entirely possible. The Dead Ale Wives you mean. And yes in 2nd ed The ogre mages were the standard Oni (Japanese Ogres). Later on they merged and became the same species. I think the maid reason for the change comes from the common mix of Ogres and Ogre Mages within games. Eventually it became common sense to put them in to the same species.
lugnut71 07-19-06, 12:09 PM	Although it is kind of hard to talk about species and such when a dragon can produce with a human and make a viable reproducing offspring. Not that that is the measuring stick for determining species anymore. I always pictured ogre mage as a separate race. Related but as far above ogres as humans are above spider monkeys.
Cravensson 07-19-06, 12:21 PM	I imagine it is somewhat like the relationship between goblins and hobgoblins. Same family, different critter.
frankthedm 07-19-06, 12:46 PM	If an Ogre Magi is not an Ogre, why is it called an Ogre Magi?Because a gaijin felt Oni were mythological close enough to European ogres to be referred to as such and added “Magi” due to their numerous magical abilities. They both have the giant type in 3e so giantbane weapons nail them both. This thread gives me an idea for an Ogre Mage Warlord. Gaigakusu Gari, has a nice sound to it.
Bruunwald 07-19-06, 01:07 PM	The entries state they are cousins, as others have pointed out. I guess I'm okay with that, though from what I understand of the ogre mage's oni origins, they seem much more like demons (read: powerful spirits).
JBW 07-19-06, 03:46 PM	In my games I ditched the Ogre Magi as written in the MM and replaced it with a template that - when added to an Ogre - creates the creature commonly referred to as an Ogre Mage.
Rerecros 07-19-06, 04:30 PM	From what I herd of oni, their lawful (evil?) outsiders. They would probably kill an ogre on sight, they are torturers in hell.
BladefellMaster 07-19-06, 06:02 PM	.... Perhaps the ogre mage was the result of cross-breeding between ogres and oni? It's entirely possible. I agree with bubba here. They are the offspring off ogres and another supernatural species, findes, oni, something or other, that can breed truem, or with true ogres possibly. I seem to recall reading something way back in the original monstrous compendium, or fiend folio maybe, to that effect. I think it was some kind of deliberate breeding experiment by a demon lord or dark god.
frankthedm 07-19-06, 07:50 PM	This thread makes me wish Wotc would do a Kamigawa campaign setting as the 3.5 version of OA.