Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Vorpal Tribble 04-22-05, 04:06 PM	I recently had a bit of a debate myself over the alignment of a particular creature I was working on. Basically it is a spiderish creature that likes to play games with its prey and then kill them and drag them away to age a bit. It kills only to eat, but it does like to force prey into a good chase beforehand, so I'm wondering if it would be considered evil, or merely neutral as I originally had it. They don't chase their prey for its fear, but for the mere thrill of the hunt. Its like a hungry animal, but with sentience. So thats my question, does a predatory creature that doesn't care whom it eats become evil once it has intelligence?
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-22-05, 04:13 PM	I'd say if it indiscrimately kills, toys with, and eats sentient beings, it's evil. It doesn't matter if it's not for fear, "toying" with prey is essentially torture and killing for pleasure, which is evil.
LukiLoki 04-22-05, 04:17 PM	It's a gray area for sure. How smart is it? I'm leaning toward saying it can still be neutral, if it eats everything it kills, and doesn't kill if it's not hungry (or at least not running low on snacks). Cats play with their food after all. And sometimes seem to kill for the sheer joy of it. And people love cats.
The Vorpal Tribble 04-22-05, 04:23 PM	I'd say if it indiscrimately kills, toys with, and eats sentient beings, it's evil. It doesn't matter if it's not for fear, "toying" with prey is essentially torture and killing for pleasure, which is evil. Well, it doesn't kill for pleasure, just for hunger. A sated one would probably chase them all through its hand-made tunnels snickering, and once bored leave them be. How smart is it? It has an int of 16, which it mainly puts to use in digging out caverns into three-dimensional mazes to make the hunt prolonged and exciting and unpredictable. Cats play with their food after all. And sometimes seem to kill for the sheer joy of it. And people love cats. Aye, but you see, they are animals. They are too dim to encompass the concept of morality. And the thing is, if the prey just sat there, not running or attacking, it'd probably not know what to do. Its mainly an inborn instinct to give chase. As someone mentioned to me, chasing prey tires them, making them easier to eat, which in a sentient creature just makes the hunt more enjoyable and scratches that inner need to chase. Edit: However, once it gains sentience and has the capability to control its inner urges, does this instinct become merely an evil lack of self control?
DrMorganes 04-22-05, 04:31 PM	With an INT of 16, this critter definitely has a sadistic bend to its personality. Even if it only kills to eat, and eats all it kills, the fact that it enjoys toying with its prey would have me classify it as Neutral Evil. If you were to give it animal intelligence, though, I'd say Neutral.
Callahan 04-22-05, 10:32 PM	Anyone that willingly kills intelligent creatures for the purpose of sport, gaining wealth or other self serving or wasteful purposes is Evil.
was_fired 04-22-05, 10:44 PM	Anyone that willingly kills intelligent creatures for the purpose of sport, gaining wealth or other self serving or wasteful purposes is Evil. Adventurers? It should be noted that self serving purposes include survival which is considered by most perfectly acceptable reason to kill a goblin. Back on topic with that level of intelligence it would really depend on their moral system. It is possible that they are completely incapable of grasping the idea of fear which would be interesting. If you can't understand that something is suffering you are not evil for placing it in a situation which makes it suffer. So strap on a natural ability which makes it completely immune to all forms of fear be they natural or otherwise (maybe some kind of alien mind feature as well since we would have trouble understanding this) and your justified making them neutral.
Hammerhead 04-23-05, 12:28 AM	I would say evil at first, however the Sirrush in the ELH hunts pretty much the same way and its CN (it has like 40 int also). So either one would work IMO
Hammerhead 04-23-05, 12:29 AM	Adventurers? It should be noted that self serving purposes include survival which is considered by most perfectly acceptable reason to kill a goblin. Theres a big differnce IMO between killing a goblin thats bothering a village and killing one just for money. A good character should never kill just for the money.
Slagger the Chuul 04-23-05, 12:56 AM	Theres a big differnce IMO between killing a goblin thats bothering a village and killing one just for money. A good character should never kill just for the money. It's a bit of a tricky point, since when you're being paid there's also a reason for someone to want that goblin dead (which you presumably know about). Obviously, being paid to kill a dangerous goblin that's threatening a village isn't evil, while being paid to kill a harmless goblin for entertainment isn't good. On the other hand, if you're being paid to kill a goblin for some unknown reason, you can't really judge whether or not it's good or evil to do so. Accepting such a job may be reckless or mercenary, but not much more. As for the spider creature, it depends on how its intellect balances against its instincts. If it can't control its instincts in this regard (hunting and killing sentient creatures), it can't be considered more responsible than an animal. If it understands the plight of its victims, and could stop itself, but chooses not to, then it's evil. It boils down to two questions: Is it aware of the evil? Can it make a choice? If you answer yes to both, then it's evil.
Callahan 04-23-05, 01:19 AM	well by that: 1. the creatures know that they are going to kill the intelligent prey for food and they're also making it a sport. - so yes. 2. It's an intelligent creature and is purposely having fun with it's food. - so once again, Yes. If the hunters on the other hand were only interested in food and didn't have any preference to eating intelligent over unintelligent creatures and simply eat people because there is a lack of understanding then the creatures would be neutral.
Slagger the Chuul 04-23-05, 11:04 AM	That depends on how it works; if its instincts completely took over when prey was near, it wouldn't be any more evil than some people with multiple personality disorder. Not that I'm saying this creature is like that; it's just another possibility.
Barloch 04-23-05, 11:43 AM	Well by the D&D good/evil system as is written it is evil. But then entire D&D good/evil system is based on human morality. Really you make the call.
The Vorpal Tribble 04-23-05, 12:24 PM	I'm basically putting under alignment, 'Usually' chaotic neutral, so that DM's can easily have evil varieties. Basically, these things aren't exactly taught what morality or self control are, so they patrol their catacombs and eat what ventures within. As someone I showed this to said: In the case of this intelligent creature, the creation of elaborate mazes and/or traps would just add an intellectual level to a basic visceral foundation. It's not just primal emotion that is satisfied, but their need for a mental challenge. Some people do crossword puzzles. The spiders just prefer something more interactive, which they then eat.
mathx314 04-23-05, 12:50 PM	Good call, I was about to suggest that myself. Say, you wanna post the stat block for the monster? You've gotten me interested.
The Vorpal Tribble 04-23-05, 01:30 PM	Sorry, but its being put into a supplement my company is working on. If I posted it I wouldn't be allowed to put it in the book ;)
Serow Darkstar 04-23-05, 03:30 PM	It doesn't strike me as evil. The way you've described it, it hunts for food (And likes it's food tired, big deal), and if it's not hungry, it just chases things out. Now, chaseing things out is good and all, but, the way it does it also makes sure most things aren't going to come back. So, it's defending it's lair, or eating. To be completely honest, that sounds completely and totally neutral to me. Now, if one of them started to kill when it wasn't hungry, or started to cripple it's prey and torture them... Then that's evil. But as is, it's actually doing less to it's prey than most cats do, so definiately neutral.
Cantankerous 04-23-05, 04:32 PM	Cat and mouse. How many evil cat's are there? The fact that this thing derives pleasure from the kill skates the edges, but if it does not kill solely for amusement (sometimes cat's do, but they aren't sapient) then it doesn't meet the requirements for evil on that basis solely. Isshia
Da Dinictus 04-23-05, 04:46 PM	Cantankerous pretty much beat me to the cat. Domestic cats in particular are known to kill for fun, for the thrill and for sport resulting in many kills of which they only eat a few. But they're not evil. They just do it for the thrill and their instincts. I'd say it's a neutral creature with mannerisms that may strike as cruel or evil to most people, but, that despite it's intelligence, it isn't unlike a cat on the prowl. This one just thinks along the hunt and likes a challenge. Magical beast or just an animal, if I may ask? :P
Elthbert 04-23-05, 04:52 PM	It's a gray area for sure. How smart is it? I'm leaning toward saying it can still be neutral, if it eats everything it kills, and doesn't kill if it's not hungry (or at least not running low on snacks). Cats play with their food after all. And sometimes seem to kill for the sheer joy of it. And people love cats. Cats are evil DUHH ask any dog.
Elthbert 04-23-05, 04:57 PM	seriously if the thing has a higher than animal intellegence then it is evil, if it is just an animal it is nuetral, by the RAW. Now I think that giving alignments to animals is potentially okay, I have played in a campaign where lions where lawful evil, hyenas where nuetral evil and tigers where chaotic evil. This was not because of there sentiance but because of their behavior. I didn't have a problem with it, thati s how they act.
Callista 04-23-05, 05:07 PM	Hmmh. Well, you have to be able to make moral choices to have any alignment but neutral... if it has INT 2 or less, I really couldn't assign any alignment to it, since it really doesn't know what it's doing (i.e., has really no concept that it is causing pain to another creature, or even really has much concept of what "another creature" means). With INT 3-6, I'd say there's still a strong tendency towards Neutrality. I mean, sure, these sorts of creatures can understand morality, but they probably have to think hard to do it--and even then it's simplistic. An INT 3 creature--say, a really dumb half-orc--who killed someone who annoyed him may actually be Neutral: He simply doesn't understand that he caused pain, because he doesn't think hard enough to understand it. Or he could sacrifice himself for a friend--and still be Neutral; all he was thinking at the time was to keep from being damaged something that he liked (the friend). At any rate, the higher the INT, the more likely you are to not be Neutral--or, if you are Neutral, to have made that decision consciously.
JabberWocky 04-23-05, 06:21 PM	If your creature is intelligent and enjoys torturing its prey in this way before eating them, it's very likely to be evil. If it simply does so because its natural programming mandates it, it's more likely to be neutral.
Serow Darkstar 04-23-05, 08:01 PM	The way I see it being described is that it's not tortureing it's prey any more than any other predatory creature tortures their prey. It seems to be a natural response... Maybe the creature requires high adrenaline levels in the meat it eats, for some reason, and has developed this cat & mouse chase as a method of accomplishing this. I still stand by neutral.
Callahan 04-23-05, 09:38 PM	Cantankerous pretty much beat me to the cat. Domestic cats in particular are known to kill for fun, for the thrill and for sport resulting in many kills of which they only eat a few. But they're not evil. They just do it for the thrill and their instincts. I'd say it's a neutral creature with mannerisms that may strike as cruel or evil to most people, but, that despite it's intelligence, it isn't unlike a cat on the prowl. This one just thinks along the hunt and likes a challenge. Magical beast or just an animal, if I may ask? :P Cats are animals, It's not consciously making a decision to torture it's pray, it's just following it's instinct. If a human on the other hand runs around chasing halflings with a flail and bites their heads off for fun or nourishment it becomes a very different story.
Nyat 04-24-05, 01:33 AM	Well I like the comparison between this thing and cats, both toy with their prey and sound some what similiar so I would put them at the same alignment. And I think its pretty obvious that cats are almost always LE (I wonder how much hate I get from cat lovers :P I actually own a cat, but I know that shes evil) Edit: oh ya, cats are clearly very intelligent, they plan on taking over the world although the closest they came was gaining dominion over Egypt ;)
Nekode 04-24-05, 02:19 AM	Cats are animals, It's not consciously making a decision to torture it's pray, it's just following it's instinct. If a human on the other hand runs around chasing halflings with a flail and bites their heads off for fun or nourishment it becomes a very different story. LOL! That's going to be my next character, I'm serious.
INeedNoSalt 04-24-05, 07:08 PM	Aye, but you see, they are animals. They are too dim to encompass the concept of morality. With 16 int, they're *not* dim stupid animals. With 16 intelligence, they're a fair deal smarter than most humans, are sentient, and are evil because they find joy in killing things. This isn't 'for the thrill of the hunt.' If they want the thrill of a hunt, they'll hunt something that they're not certain they can defeat. What you described was *not* that.
HomebrewedMonster 04-24-05, 07:17 PM	I would say that they are Lawful Evil.
Barloch 04-24-05, 07:47 PM	If your only giving them int 16 because they dig out elaborate tunnels, take it away make them int 2. TONS of animals make eliberate tunnel system webbings, housings, nests, etc etc. Just look at prarie dogs, they build cities miles across thru tunnels and even ventilate them properely! Spiders build large elaborate webs, or dig wholes and make clever trap doors with webs sticking out so they can feel thier prey. Cats hunt prey just for fun. If your only giving them the int because you think they should have it for tunnel building you shouldn't give it to them. Also cats would be nuetral, I mean seriously what kind of evil villian spends 18 hours a day sleeping on your rug? :P And tigers actually get along well with humans, well relatively speaking. A tiger can live within feet of a human village and never once even bother or be seen by the residents. Its when you take away thier habitat, and natural prey, that they hunt cattle and other livestock. They also don't kill more then they can eat, and if they don't eat a whole animal in one sitting they bury it and come back for the rest later. I'd say tigers would be chaotic good.
The Vorpal Tribble 04-24-05, 10:52 PM	Ok, everyone is assuming that the very act of being sentient automatically means something knows right from wrong. These things are raised to make tunnels. Curving, elaborate, tricksome tunnels to confuse and capture prey. They think prey is whatever trespasses into their realm. Their ancestors used these tunnels in much the same way. These things have a racial mental urge to make convuluted tunnels. They also have the urge to chase their victims. Upon gaining sentience they still had the urges, but now they got a mental thrill out of outwitting their prey, in whatever form it took. They are raised to see everything that comes in as prey to be eaten, and rarely do those who come in ready to strike up a conversation in a language it can understand. They see it, it sees them, it screams, it runs, and it starts to chase. How are these things to know cunning sentients from lucky animals? They don't speak with their prey, they just hunt it. They don't know their prey long enough to realize what intelligence is. Evil is knowing what is good and right and doing the opposite. To this creature, chasing those that enter it until they escape or it can eat is good. It keeps it alive and feeds its offspring, not to mention keep the tunnels safe.
Elthbert 04-24-05, 11:14 PM	If your only giving them int 16 because they dig out elaborate tunnels, take it away make them int 2. TONS of animals make eliberate tunnel system webbings, housings, nests, etc etc. Just look at prarie dogs, they build cities miles across thru tunnels and even ventilate them properely! Spiders build large elaborate webs, or dig wholes and make clever trap doors with webs sticking out so they can feel thier prey. Cats hunt prey just for fun. If your only giving them the int because you think they should have it for tunnel building you shouldn't give it to them. Also cats would be nuetral, I mean seriously what kind of evil villian spends 18 hours a day sleeping on your rug? :P And tigers actually get along well with humans, well relatively speaking. A tiger can live within feet of a human village and never once even bother or be seen by the residents. Its when you take away thier habitat, and natural prey, that they hunt cattle and other livestock. They also don't kill more then they can eat, and if they don't eat a whole animal in one sitting they bury it and come back for the rest later. I'd say tigers would be chaotic good. Male tigers eat their own young, thats pretty CE.
Serow Darkstar 04-24-05, 11:23 PM	Gerbils will eat their young too. Damn them evil gerbils.
Elthbert 04-24-05, 11:33 PM	Gerbils will eat their young too. Damn them evil gerbils. Dude Gerbils are evil, I would wager to say most rodents fall into a qausi evil area. I already said that by the rules all animals are neutral, however if one wants to alter that that is fine, most animals act in what would be concidered an evil manner. That is why philosophers and theologins have always related the actions of a " beast " as equivalent to Evil acts.
Callahan 04-24-05, 11:51 PM	Ok, everyone is assuming that the very act of being sentient automatically means something knows right from wrong. These things are raised to make tunnels. Curving, elaborate, tricksome tunnels to confuse and capture prey. They think prey is whatever trespasses into their realm. Well are they purposely murdering anything that enters it's habitat, or are they just protective? If they're protective then it makes encounters quite different. Heroes would run in to the creature which would make loud (universal: "get the hell out" gestures) and only attack if attacked or if the intruders persist. Then it would see them out of their territory and leave them alone if they leave or kill them if they are being pests. That would make then Neutral. intelligent creature that would automatically attack, kill and eat everything they see are Evil.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-25-05, 06:22 AM	Also cats would be nuetral, I mean seriously what kind of evil villian spends 18 hours a day sleeping on your rug? :P A lazy one.
Barloch 04-25-05, 07:10 AM	Ok, everyone is assuming that the very act of being sentient automatically means something knows right from wrong. Thats because according to the RAW it does. Like I said if your only giving it sentience because you think it needs it for tunnels it doesn't. Animals raise thier young and teach them how to build things all the time. Giving a creature sentience means that it can reason, and know right from wrong. Being ignorant of whats right and wrong is no exuse, if you were to talk to an illithid about right and wrong it would just look at you funny then eat your brains. Because they honestly don't care. Does that mean they should get a "get out of jail free" pass and be nuetral too?
MinionOfCthulhu 04-25-05, 09:33 AM	Being ignorant of whats right and wrong is no exuse, if you were to talk to an illithid about right and wrong it would just look at you funny then eat your brains. Because they honestly don't care. Does that mean they should get a "get out of jail free" pass and be nuetral too? Your right from wrong is much different then an illithid's right from wrong.
Barloch 04-25-05, 12:04 PM	Your right from wrong is much different then an illithid's right from wrong. Ok first of all the entire good/evil system is based upon human morals, thats what you take into account when giving an alignment. Secondaly an illithid really doesn't destinct between right and wrong, they just don't care. If they can, and it helps them personally, they will. Thats the point I was trying to make.
INeedNoSalt 04-25-05, 04:57 PM	So you're saying 'It's extremely intelligent, just below or right on par with most college professors, but it's too stupid to know that it's hurting things.' Whatever. If you don't want to accept that hurting things for the fun of hurting them is evil, don't ask. It is EVIL to play with things and then kill them. It's not neutral. You're instilling fear and a false sense of hope when there is none. That's evil.
Callahan 04-25-05, 11:48 PM	So you're saying 'It's extremely intelligent, just below or right on par with most college professors, but it's too stupid to know that it's hurting things.' then it's Int is 2 and is of animal intelligence...
verybad 04-26-05, 01:40 AM	By the definition that finding sport in the killing of prey being evil when used by sentient creatures, fishermen and hunters are evil. It's considered OK to hunt or fish for lesser beings (eg Deer, Trout) however hunting a Person is in most eyes Evil (but hunting a Gorilla or Chimpanzee (which occurs still in Africa) would probably be considered ignorant rather than evildespite the fact that both species have been taught to communicate with Humans through sign language). If the creature is sentient, it doesn't necessarily follow that it recognizes sentience in other creatures either. If it thinks or communicates (perhaps in an entirely alien manner) it might not recognize anything other than it's own species as sentient. Human Cannibals didn't consider themselves evil, they were going out to get food, and the neighbors looked tasty... By modern definition, Cannibalism is evil, but it's truly in the eye of the beholder. Anyone being chased by the creature this thread is about would consider the monster to be evil doubtless, it may or may not consider itself to be evil. If it's main goal in hunting is food, not gaining power, and or if it doesn't recognize sentience in it's prey, then there's no evil IMO. This is a wider definition of evil than DnD uses however, for clarity and ease of description it might be best to just call it evil.
Vahenir 04-26-05, 02:11 AM	In my opinion, the "it kills for sport" theory is extremely weak as a way to gauge alignment. I mean.. I certainly never knew that all those glorious, shining Knights that protected their people were evil because they boar-hunted. Killing for sport is evil though... sad, those Knights had so much potential. Or is it just that killing sapient creatures for sport is evil? Tolkien's Elves are Evil. Sucky.
Callahan 04-26-05, 02:14 PM	Elves don't hunt for sport, they do it for ecological balancing.
INeedNoSalt 04-26-05, 04:52 PM	You guys are pretending like whether or not it thinks it's evil matter. It doesn't. Read the definitions of Evil in the players handbook. This thing is most likely Neutral Evil. It kills things for fun. Killing things, especially sentient things, for fun is evil. That's all there is to it.
Insane Pixie 04-26-05, 05:36 PM	And that is all there is to it. This should be closed before flaming ensues.
Vahenir 04-26-05, 06:57 PM	Elves don't hunt for sport, they do it for ecological balancing. Note that I said -Tolkien- Elves are Evil. They hunt for sport. As a matter of fact, they hunt sapient creatures for sport. Thranduil often holds Goblin hunts. And need I remind you that the 1st Age Elves hunted an entire species of Dwarf almost to extinction (Petty Dwarves)?
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-26-05, 08:26 PM	Regardless of hunting issues, toying with your prey does not involve "thrill of the hunt." Hunt is game, a conflict. Toying has only one possible outcome. The performer of the act cruelly and maliciously plays with the creature like an object, in prolonging its suffering and dangling false hopes of escape to gain some mild amusement. This creature is evil. Even if it were the "thrill of the hunt", use the Astral Stalker in MMIII as an example.